Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by lio45

I couldn't disagree more with you on that one! Gisèle Bergeron's name (and FWIW, that's the correct spelling ) should be pronounced the same way whether in Russia by a Russian, in Japan by a Japanese, or in Canada. A given individual's full name has, from that person's point of view, only one possible pronounciation, the correct one.

And I disagree back. I can see your case for within Canada, as we are ostensibly a bilingual country (though again, outside of the bilingual bubble around Ottawa and, I presume, New Brunswick, it's unreasonable to expect it), but it would be a practical impossibility to get people like the Japanese or the Chinese to pronounce non-native names in their countries correctly. Or any other country.

It's just not feasible by any stretch of the imagination, and indeed, I would argue that it would be offensive to go around in those countries (or others) insisting that people pronounce your name the way it is in your native country. It's just not going to happen.

I mean, I could seethe every time I hear Chinese names get mangled by, yes, CBC announcers, and I could kick and scream every time someone on the media says "Beijing" with a French J instead of the more proper English J (which is not 100% accurate, but close enough), but I'd eventually go insane.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I can see your case for within Canada, as we are ostensibly a bilingual country...

Then I think we agree.

I was just saying that if for example you learn Russian, go to Russia, and are asked in Russian what your full name is, you likely will not willingly mangle your own name when informing your interlocutor of what your name is. Instead, you'll likely pronounce your own full name the only correct way, regardless of where you're from. The incapacity of foreigners to properly pronounce one's name does not change the fact that there's one correct way to pronounce it, and other incorrect ones. The point wouldn't be to blame Chinese people for being incapable of pronouncing my name correctly, but rather, to point out or acknowledge the unescapable fact that they're not pronouncing it correctly, which is certainly going to be mirrored anyway by the fact that I won't be able to pronounce theirs correctly, at least at first.

So, to sum it up, I think that if someone works in, say, China, for a news outlet there, then being able to pronounce Chinese names reasonably correctly should be part of the required skills for his/her media job, whether or not the person is originally Chinese or foreign.

I mean, I could seethe every time I hear Chinese names get mangled by, yes, CBC announcers, and I could kick and scream every time someone on the media says "Beijing" with a French J instead of the more proper English J (which is not 100% accurate, but close enough), but I'd eventually go insane.

Sure, foreign names getting mangled can be annoying; local names getting mangled by local news reporters (which sometimes happens on English CBC here) is even more annoying, though.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by lio45

I was just saying that if for example you learn Russian, go to Russia, and are asked in Russian what your full name is, you likely will not willingly mangle your own name when informing your interlocutor of what your name is. Instead, you'll likely pronounce your own full name the only correct way, regardless of where you're from. The incapacity of foreigners to properly pronounce one's name does not change the fact that there's one correct way to pronounce it, and other incorrect ones.

I'm not 100% on this. I have a biblical name which has a slightly different pronunciation in every language from Portuguese to Urdu. I pronounce my name one way in English, another in French and yet another in German or Swedish. If someone speaking one language pronounces it in another, it seems weird and incorrect, so there is no one 'correct' pronunciation except for that which I chose.

Of course, not everyone has an easily translatable name and not everyone associates with the name even when it is translated (ex: William=Guillaume, George=Georg, John=Johann, etc.), but I just want to point out that people can and do adopt several different and equally correct pronunciations of their own names.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by lio45

Then I think we agree.

I was just saying that if for example you learn Russian, go to Russia, and are asked in Russian what your full name is, you likely will not willingly mangle your own name when informing your interlocutor of what your name is. Instead, you'll likely pronounce your own full name the only correct way, regardless of where you're from. The incapacity of foreigners to properly pronounce one's name does not change the fact that there's one correct way to pronounce it, and other incorrect ones. The point wouldn't be to blame Chinese people for being incapable of pronouncing my name correctly, but rather, to point out or acknowledge the unescapable fact that they're not pronouncing it correctly, which is certainly going to be mirrored anyway by the fact that I won't be able to pronounce theirs correctly, at least at first.

So, to sum it up, I think that if someone works in, say, China, for a news outlet there, then being able to pronounce Chinese names reasonably correctly should be part of the required skills for his/her media job, whether or not the person is originally Chinese or foreign.




Sure, foreign names getting mangled can be annoying; local names getting mangled by local news reporters (which sometimes happens on English CBC here) is even more annoying, though.

I'm not sure this is true. I'm Ukrainian and have a common Russian name. But after moving here, I refer to myself as AN-ton ("an" as in "can" and "ton" as in "con"). The proper pronounciation would be an-TON ("an" as in "bun" and "ton" is impossible in English, but closer to "tone")

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I'm not 100% on this. I have a biblical name which has a slightly different pronunciation in every language from Portuguese to Urdu. I pronounce my name one way in English, another in French and yet another in German or Swedish. If someone speaking one language pronounces it in another, it seems weird and incorrect, so there is no one 'correct' pronunciation except for that which I chose.

Of course, not everyone has an easily translatable name and not everyone associates with the name even when it is translated (ex: William=Guillaume, George=Georg, John=Johann, etc.), but I just want to point out that people can and do adopt several different and equally correct pronunciations of their own names.

I see your point, but sticking to the original sub-point discussed with rousseau, are you saying you'd have found it normal for CBC to speak of John Chrétien and Radio-Canada of Stéphane Harper? Personally, I'd find that WAY more cringeworthy than an English name pronounced the English way in an otherwise fully French sentence / a French name pronounced the French way in an otherwise fully English sentence.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm not sure this is true. I'm Ukrainian and have a common Russian name. But after moving here, I refer to myself as AN-ton ("an" as in "can" and "ton" as in "con"). The proper pronounciation would be an-TON ("an" as in "bun" and "ton" is impossible in English, but closer to "tone")

But that's because you have chosen to live here.

A Russian tourist called Anton happening to pass fleetingly through Vancouver would likely say "an-TON" ("an" as in "bun" and "ton" impossible in English, but closer to "tone") if asked for his name.


(FWIW, had you lived a few generations ago, you'd probably have quickly become "Anthony" after disembarking on the shores of this continent to settle.)

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by lio45

I see your point, but sticking to the original sub-point discussed with rousseau, are you saying you'd have found it normal for CBC to speak of John Chrétien and Radio-Canada of Stéphane Harper? Personally, I'd find that WAY more cringeworthy than an English name pronounced the English way in an otherwise fully French sentence / a French name pronounced the French way in an otherwise fully English sentence.

As I said, it's how the person pronounces it. Using a similar example, I would find it all sorts of strange if the CBC reporter talked of Justin Trudeau [Jüstĩ Trhüdo'] or the Radio-Canada newsreader spoke of [Djustinn Troo-doe].

[Architype]

One of the problems I have, regarding names especially, is that it helps to be able to "spell" the name in your mind based upon the pronunciation. I occasionally have someone introduce themselves, and have no idea what they just said, and it's awkward to have to ask them to repeat or spell it, but sometimes it's necessary to help remember it. Unfamiliar foreign names are therefore easier to remember for an English speaker if pronounced in the English language accent.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

On CBC radio show "the 180" the other day the head of some sort of advocacy body for nuclear power in Canada pronounced the pertinent word in question as nu-kyu-lar. Repeatedly. The interviewer used the correct pronunciation. It was like a tennis match.

That way of saying nuclear makes my skin crawl.

As does ar-tic for arctic.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I see your point, but sticking to the original sub-point discussed with rousseau, are you saying you'd have found it normal for CBC to speak of John Chrétien and Radio-Canada of Stéphane Harper? Personally, I'd find that WAY more cringeworthy than an English name pronounced the English way in an otherwise fully French sentence / a French name pronounced the French way in an otherwise fully English sentence.

I agree that its odd for the anglophone media in Quebec to butcher French names.

For Jean Chrétien you often heard Zhahn Cretchen. Lucien Bouchard was Lucy-enn Boo-shard.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't think I could deal with a person that says chews-day But I'm not sure what's wrong with the next two? Sound pretty much like what I'd say:

TYOO-sday

It can be worse.

Some people say chews-DEE

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

As I said, it's how the person pronounces it. Using a similar example, I would find it all sorts of strange if the CBC reporter talked of Justin Trudeau [Jüstĩ Trhüdo'] or the Radio-Canada newsreader spoke of [Djustinn Troo-doe].

Trudeau (whether father or son) is really one of the few exceptions out there.

And while at it, an even more extreme example is that I personally would absolutely tend to pronounce the family name differently when saying the full name for singer Avril Lavigne vs her father's name Jean-Claude Lavigne. And it's obviously the same family name, only one generation apart! I'd just have a hard time (i.e. it would be un-natural) pronouncing the latter name the Anglo way over the Franco way.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree that its odd for the anglophone media in Quebec to butcher French names.

For Jean Chrétien you often heard Zhahn Cretchen. Lucien Bouchard was Lucy-enn Boo-shard.

Yeah, that's totally fine for media in Vancouver or Calgary or southern Ontario, no problem.

By the same logic, I'm also absolutely okay with exposing myself to hearing someone refer to Canada's current leader as Stéfenne Arpeur if I ever tune in to some French/Belgian/Swiss/Whatnot channel, but in Quebec, it would irk me. The standards just aren't the same.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, that's totally fine for media in Vancouver or Calgary or southern Ontario, no problem.

.

I am less forgiving for national news programs too. Q99 Hits in Red Deer I can understand. CBC The National no way.

[MolsonExport]

Craig Owliver, CTV News, Ottawa.

[SignalHillHiker]

I heard "Happy Christmas!" twice today. That's not common here at all. And one was old, so fair enough, but the other was a woman probably mid-30s.

[SignalHillHiker]

I've mentioned this before but never actually asked it, and I'm curious because I have no idea except one person's impression of Alberta.

Ayreonaut gets annoyed by how everything in St. John's - businesses, media, people, radio, TV shows, whatever - refers to the city as "the capital". He thinks it's overdone and you be brought here and never hear the city's actual name.

But, everything does it, even today:



So in your province, is it normal to refer to the capital city as "the capital"?

Do you hear it in news reports instead of the city name, etc.?

[TownGuy]

^ Never heard it here referring to Toronto. "Nation's Capital" referring to Ottawa, obviously, is heard frequently in the media though.

[SignalHillHiker]

Yeah, same. You hear "nation's capital" or "national capital" and, rarely but still existent, "federal capital", all the time. Always understood to mean Ottawa.

But just "capital city" or "the capital", no one would ever think you meant Ottawa. It's like saying "west coast" here - always means Corner Brook and area.

There has to be some pretty strong Canada-wide context before the phrase for it to be interpreted otherwise.

[GlassCity]

Capital is barely used even in reference to Ottawa. I can't imagine anybody every saying "I'm going to the capital for the weekend." In the news, as nation's capital though, sure.

As far as Victoria goes, never ever. Even when something's going on politically, it's always the "BC Legislature" or just "Victoria."