Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

A good example of Quebec's unique twist on America are (gridiron) football tailgate parties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MoaeyJnygo

Similar to what you'd see in the US, but with additional stuff like crêpes flambées, smoked salmon (both mentioned in the video) and also (though not shown) wine, fine cheeses, terrines, etc. Alongside BBQ fare and of course beer.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Haiti was also a resource-extraction colony

Correction: Haiti (St Domingue in fact, as it was then called) was a ressource-CREATION colony. St Domingue had 0 natural resources before France arrived and created everything from scratch. The independent Haitians destroyed everything in less than 30 years, and turned the largest economy of the Americas, with a GDP larger than the USA, into a marginal and poor economy.

Not that slavery was a good thing of course. But you make it sound like France came to exploit riches that were already there. They weren't. It's not the Congo or Bolivia with its silver mines.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Vice versa in fact probably but I am talking about culture in the very broad sense. Seattle kids getting $8 Boba teas, Venmoing each other the cost while in an poly relationship with a non binary third in their thrupple head to work ruling the world as FANG have so little in common with the mega church attending (white or black) Alabama person paying cash for everything and fishing crawfish.

Other than cultural touchstones I have no problem working or socializing with urban Quebecers.

This is only made possible by the fact that you (perhaps) speak passable French or they (more likely) speak passable English.

In Canada (especially the ROC, where I was BTW raised so I got that too) we tend to downplay the importance of language making people really different, because it's seen as playing into the hands of Quebec separatists.

I.e. Quebec really isn't that different. They just use a different code to communicate. You know, like Beta vs VHS, but you're both still watching the same kung fu movie.

I also think that if you talk to people in, say, the US, they're more familiar with stuff from other regions of the country even if they don't partake in it or even look down on it.

Someone from Idaho might not eat grits but they'll know what they are.

When I moved to Quebec I also noticed that about people who'd lived in Quebec their entire lives. Even if it wasn't their thing, they were used to and even "rolled with" stuff that was a bit off-putting to me.

Like pictures of nude women advertising strip clubs and escorts on the counter of the bowling alley where you're dropping off your 8 year old for a friends' birthday party.

Or Quebec lifestyle magazines with illustrations of blowjobs in the waiting room of your pediatrician's office.

(Both true stories from my acclimatization to Quebec.)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Correction: Haiti (St Domingue in fact, as it was then called) was a ressource-CREATION colony. St Domingue had 0 natural resources before France arrived and created everything from scratch. The independent Haitians destroyed everything in less than 30 years, and turned the largest economy of the Americas, with a GDP larger than the USA, into a marginal and poor economy.

Not that slavery was a good thing of course. But you make it sound like France came to exploit riches that were already there. They weren't. It's not the Congo or Bolivia with its silver mines.

In the social sciences, the term resource-extraction colony is understood to include economies dominated by plantations. Which absolutely includes colonial-era Haiti, with its sugar plantations. The climate was conducive for cultivating sugar, unlike that of the mother country.

Many if not most people would prefer to be destitute than almost-destitute but under the firm boot of a slaver.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Like pictures of nude women advertising strip clubs and escorts on the counter of the bowling alley where you're dropping off your 8 year old for a friends' birthday party.

Or Quebec lifestyle magazines with illustrations of blowjobs in the waiting room of your pediatrician's office.

(Both true stories from my acclimatization to Quebec.)

When I was a teenager the French TV showed a documentary about sexual education in Denmark. The Danish national TV broadcasted a program explaining how to practice male masturbation (with graphic images only a little bit blurred). That seemed totally crazy to us ("ah those Danes!").

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

In the social sciences, the term resource-extraction colony is understood to include economies dominated with plantations. Which absolutely includes colonial-era Haiti, with its sugar plantations.

Half of the 13 US colonies then?

Note: more French people settled in St Domingue than in French Canada. Most of them were either exterminated by Black extremists in the 1790s or fled to Louisiana (and even to the independent USA). Cap-Français was the pearl of France in the Americas, much more developed than either Québec City or Montréal. It burnt entirely in 1793.

[MolsonExport]

I recall seeing three-story high fashion poster of a drop-dead gorgeous woman in a suggestive pose, clad only by a skimpy bikini (and I mean, just barely concealing the naughty bits), on Rue Ste. Catherines, and in the foreground, were a bunch of women walking along the sidewalk wearing burkas and hijabs.

One of those classic "Montreal moments"

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Half of the 13 US colonies then?

Note: more French people settled in St Domingue than in French Canada. Most of them were either exterminated by Black extremists in the 1790s or fled to Louisiana (and even to the independent USA).

well, yes, in the Southern USA.

Look, I didn't make up the nomenclature.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Correction: Haiti (St Domingue in fact, as it was then called) was a ressource-CREATION colony. St Domingue had 0 natural resources before France arrived and created everything from scratch. The independent Haitians destroyed everything in less than 30 years, and turned the largest economy of the Americas, with a GDP larger than the USA, into a marginal and poor economy.

Not that slavery was a good thing of course. But you make it sound like France came to exploit riches that were already there. They weren't. It's not the Congo or Bolivia with its silver mines.

Beside slavery, there was also a problem with intensive farming that impoverished their soil.

https://orbi.uliege.be/bitstream/2268/255205/1/2818-129-135.pdf

I heard of this a couple of times. The problem is settlers would grow only few crops over there, but to a large scale, which involved massive deforestation too.
It is a well known harm caused by excessive intensive farming, as opposed to organic methods that are less productive to date, but more respectful of the environment.
Haitians would still have serious issues related to this.

I'm not saying France would still be literally responsible for this, because they've been independent for very long and there's certainly some mad corruption over there.
But to be honest, we did nothing much to help them recover. Quite the opposite, the French and the US punished them by heavy financial penalties when they turned independent in the early 19th century.
The US didn't want a Black majority republic to rise next to their door, because slavery was still on over there.
As for the French, we should've done more and better for them... So yes, I think France is guilty in this case, though. More so than in Africa itself.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mousquet

But to be honest, we did nothing much to help them recover. Quite the opposite, the French and the US punished them by heavy financial penalties when they turned independent in the early 19th century.

The GDP per capita of Haiti and the Dominican Republic were identical in 1950.

[Acajack]

Haïti is such a human and ecological tragedy.

You don't need a line on a map to know where the border between it and the Dominican Republic is.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Haiti/@..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTExOS4yIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[Acajack]

The snow in France is of course making the news in Quebec today.

[MolsonExport]

The France in Quebec is making snow tomorrow.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is only made possible by the fact that you (perhaps) speak passable French or they (more likely) speak passable English.

In Canada (especially the ROC, where I was BTW raised so I got that too) we tend to downplay the importance of language making people really different, because it's seen as playing into the hands of Quebec separatists.

I.e. Quebec really isn't that different. They just use a different code to communicate. You know, like Beta vs VHS, but you're both still watching the same kung fu movie.

I also think that if you talk to people in, say, the US, they're more familiar with stuff from other regions of the country even if they don't partake in it or even look down on it.

Someone from Idaho might not eat grits but they'll know what they are.

When I moved to Quebec I also noticed that about people who'd lived in Quebec their entire lives. Even if it wasn't their thing, they were used to and even "rolled with" stuff that was a bit off-putting to me.

Like pictures of nude women advertising strip clubs and escorts on the counter of the bowling alley where you're dropping off your 8 year old for a friends' birthday party.

Or Quebec lifestyle magazines with illustrations of blowjobs in the waiting room of your pediatrician's office.

(Both true stories from my acclimatization to Quebec.)

You make a good point about the RoC or really Anglophone in general tendency to ignore language. It's really not that important for us. Language isn't everything though. Go to Holland or Scandinavia or the Baltics and English is ubiquitous but the cultural difference is proufound. There is a large cultural barrier in all three cases if in three completely different ways.

I guess I have two arguments. The first I am very confident in and the second is more debatable.

Firstly Montreal and Toronto have more in common than Toronto does with Chicago or Seattle etc. Montreal also has worlds more in common with Toronto than Paris, Brussels or obviously Kinchasa.

Second is Montreal has more in common with Toronto than Toronto does with St. Johns, Calgary or Saskatoon.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

You make a good point about the RoC or really Anglophone in general tendency to ignore language. It's really not that important for us. Language isn't everything though. Go to Holland or Scandinavia or the Baltics and English is ubiquitous but the cultural difference is proufound. There is a large cultural barrier in all three cases if in three completely different ways.

I guess I have two arguments. The first I am very confident in and the second is more debatable.

Firstly Montreal and Toronto have more in common than Toronto does with Chicago or Seattle etc. Montreal also has worlds more in common with Toronto than Paris, Brussels or obviously Kinchasa.

Second is Montreal has more in common with Toronto than Toronto does with St. Johns, Calgary or Saskatoon.

For some things yes for some things no. For all of them.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Correction: Haiti (St Domingue in fact, as it was then called) was a ressource-CREATION colony. St Domingue had 0 natural resources before France arrived and created everything from scratch. The independent Haitians destroyed everything in less than 30 years, and turned the largest economy of the Americas, with a GDP larger than the USA, into a marginal and poor economy.

Not that slavery was a good thing of course. But you make it sound like France came to exploit riches that were already there. They weren't. It's not the Congo or Bolivia with its silver mines.

I thought that the burden of Haiti's "reparations" to France were a key factor in hobbling Haiti's development potential.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The snow in France is of course making the news in Quebec today.

Is it?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I thought that the burden of Haiti's "reparations" to France were a key factor in hobbling Haiti's development potential.

No, as per:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The GDP per capita of Haiti and the Dominican Republic were identical in 1950.

Let's also not forget that Haiti was a US colony from 1915 until 1934, which is much more recent than either the French colonization of St Domingue or the debt paid to France from 1825 to 1875.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Firstly Montreal and Toronto have more in common than Toronto does with Chicago or Seattle etc. Montreal also has worlds more in common with Toronto than Paris, Brussels or obviously Kinchasa.

Nothing is always entirely white or entirely black.

In some areas, Toronto is of course closer to Montréal than to Chicago, but in other areas Toronto is closer to Chicago than to Montréal. And in some areas Montréal is closer to Toronto than to Paris, but in other areas (which are hard for you to comprehend apparently) Montréal is closer to Paris than to Toronto.

By the way, it's "Kinshasa". You've done some hypercorrection here.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Nothing is always entirely white or entirely black.

In some areas, Toronto is of course closer to Montréal than to Chicago, but in other areas Toronto is closer to Chicago than to Montréal. And in some areas Montréal is closer to Toronto than to Paris, but in other areas (which are hard for you to comprehend apparently) Montréal is closer to Paris than to Toronto.

By the way, it's "Kinshasa". You've done some hypercorrection here.

For sure. The question is on balance. And really depends what circles you are frequenting.