The future of Hamilton's public transit

[flar]

Originally Posted by mic67

The LTR is not realistic in a cost benefit ratio (yet - although the future benefit is another story).

How do you know this and what are you basing it on? I assume that you're just assuming LRT is more expensive to build and operate than BRT. If you look back through this thread you'll see that LRT is more expensive to build but not more expensive to operate. You will also see that funding for rapid transit will be available from the provincial (MoveOntario 2020) and possibly the federal government. Why not take advantage of that?

Originally Posted by mic67

Okay lets not compare cities per say, but rather density in areas of any city and as such Toronto is or would be a good starting point. North York was the 5th largest city in Can. at one time (or close to that). What year did the Yonge St subway get there? ie above eglinton ave. Mid to late 70's

Don Mills and Sheppard, I was told was once the most populated areas of North America at one time (70's) and it only got rapid transit -Sheppard subway a few years ago, and they were thinking of reducing or limiting service as a cost benefit ratio.

For well over 3 decades they discuss LTR from pearson Airport to downtown - nada.
Then along lakeshore or Queen St. nada
All High density residential.

You're making the Toronto comparison again and your examples have no relevance to Hamilton's situation. First, subways are completely different from LRT. Secondly, your examples don't support your argument. As an example, the subway is what helped North York Centre intensify.

Originally Posted by mic67

Flar look at your own photo's (and I do like them) from the mountain, where is the obvious residential density
- just south and just east and just west of city hall - the highrise apartments.

There is residential density throughout the lower city. Have a look at Google Maps and compare Hamilton's road network to that of other cities. Hamilton fits a larger number of people into a much smaller space. The result is the roads are close togther which makes walkable neighbourhoods and gives Hamilton an urban character that is well suited to public transit.

Quite a chunk of Hamilton was built before the automobile, in the late 1800's Hamilton was the fourth largest city in Canada. The rest of the lower city was built on a streetcar network before WWII. Again, what is your frame of reference here? Because there are few cities in Canada that have such a large area of rowhouses and townhouses built close together and right up to the street in an urban format.

Originally Posted by mic67

Hey the b-line is great it halfs the time to get to downtown vs the reg. bus.

By what percentage would an LRT attract new riders - certainly not enought to justify it economically.
I believe that those people that would increase HSR usage would be commuters that the LRT would provide a 1 transit b-line
to their place of work, much like the usage of and by the people using the bitter way (TTC) subway in Toronto.

In the late 60's early 70's when I lived in Hamilton they had trolly buses -electric.

I am not a regular commuter to downtown but when I have used the Main/King bus in every way it has been superior to anything that the overburdened TTC has, Barton hasnt been that great and needs a b-line.

What I am saying isnt new and has been stated in posts regarding this issue, and I tend to agree with those points
that were made.

Again, numerous studies have shown LRT has a greater ability to attract new riders and is cheaper to operate than BRT. Also, LRT is different than the trolleys.

Originally Posted by mic67

If Hamilton wants economic benefit as the result of any transportation improvement get a rapid transit system to Toronto - that is were the future is. Gesh... they dont even have regular go train service to Hamilton and that says loads.

Hamilton needs to strenthen its local economy, dependence on Toronto won't work. LRT is a tool to improve Hamilton's economic prospects. Studies have shown economic benefits derived from LRT in other cities. For example, look at raisethehammer.org and you'll find actual reports and studies that you check for yourself.

Originally Posted by mic67

I cant compare Hamilton to cities which I have not been to or have knowledge of.

FLAR QUOTE
"Compared to Toronto, Hamilton sucks. Compared to other places, Hamilton actually has a lot going for it."

Yep. But Hamilton has great potential, one developer told me that the Steel industry was the worst thing that happened to Hamilton, and today that seems to be true. Short term gain for long term disaster.

Hamilton compared to what exactly? I cant think of anything close... at the moment.

I agree that Hamilton has potential, but I was exaggerating when I said Hamilton "sucked." I actually like Hamilton and find it has a lot to offer. But it might not seem that way if you're comparing it to Toronto.

Originally Posted by mic67

Yes Hamilton is so different in so many ways than Toronto. And from what I see on the forum there seems to be many in the forum and outside of it that would prefer to be in Toronto. Hamilton is a big city without any of the benefits of one. That is NOT to say that there isnt any positive aspects of Hamilton, as my neighbour said "the 60's and 70's were the good times in hamilton." No tagging or garbage all over, for one thing. I would agree, I lived here and partly grew up here.

mic67

Just because Hamilton has suffered decline doesn't mean it has ceased to function as a city. There is still a lot going on here. Compared to Toronto, no, but compared to say London or Kitchener, a lot. People on the forum just want to help the city reach its potential, which you acknowledge that Hamilton has.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by flar

Why is LRT not realistic? In terms of residential, Hamilton is one of the densest cities in Canada. We need to work on our non-residential density in the core, but there are still 30,000 jobs down there.
This city was built around rail transit, that's why our public transit is called Hamilton Street Railway. BRT is a total waste of time, we already have it and it is not attracting new riders the way LRT would. It's a no brainer to reintroduce rail based transit here.

Outside of the novelty factor, I don't quite get what it is about LRT that will draw people where a bus cannot. I am forever hearing about Hamilton's main streets being "freeways" --- if that is true, then I cannot really imagine that LRT would be all that much quicker than what is in place now.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by mic67

Hamilton is a big city without any of the benefits of one.

While I agree with many things you say, please don't sell Hamilton short.

Hamilton does have these 'Big City' things;
- Nationally and Internationally recognized University (McMaster) and a Community College (Mohawk)
- World class medical facilities (McMaster, General)
- Significant Art Gallery (AGH)
- HECFI (large scale concerts and shows - Copps, Hamilton Place)
- Thriving arts culture - Art Crawl, Makers Market and more
- Individual distinctive Neighbourhoods (Locke, Ottawa, James North, Barton, Concession)
- National Sports Team (Ticats)
- Royal Botanical Gardens
- International Airport (Munro)

Could Hamilton have more big city things sure, but that's a pretty good start off the top my head while I'm heading out the door to the Farmer's Market.

[mic67]

My short answer is that I agree with BCTed "I cannot really imagine that LRT would be all that much quicker than what is in place now."

How often have you used the Main/King Bus from Eastgate to downtown?

There is highrise density on Melvin, far east Main and just east of Eastgate, I am not a regular rider on this route but I have been on it enough to notice that those that get on at the far east of the line tend to go all the way downtown.

The LTR will be much more expensive to build and depending on how that is, it could be more expensive to maintain in the future like the Garbage expressway in Toronto ( Gardner xpress).

You say that the LTR will attract new riders? who are they and were do they work and live? I think the largest employer in Hamilton is the City itself. How much of an increase in new riders? Hamilton is a car culture city, the mountain is like Scarbeeria, in TO, the redevelopment of Centre Mall is for cars and there has been no improvement in the plan to improve transit in this development.

The comparison is to examples of rapid transit, I lived in north york before the subway and what was happening there would have happened anyway subway or not, mississauga of the north and there was no significant extention of subway to MISS.. Scarbeerian has LRT, I dont think it has ever been called a great success? Nor has it strengthened any local economy.

Hamilton walkable neighbourhoods.....LOL hardly anyone walks anywhere in Hamilton, except from Catherine to James st..

Miss. and North York became what they are because of their dependance on and distance to Toronto.

The use and need of LRT and rapid transit where I suggested has been in need for decades and it has still not happened, that ought to be a clue, what city in Ontario has LRT or rapid transit besides Toronto? Heck what cities in Canada? Nothing east of Montreal???

So lets keep this real.

mic67

[flar]

Originally Posted by mic67

My short answer is that I agree with BCTed "I cannot really imagine that LRT would be all that much quicker than what is in place now."

How often have you used the Main/King Bus from Eastgate to downtown?

There is highrise density on Melvin, far east Main and just east of Eastgate, I am not a regular rider on this route but I have been on it enough to notice that those that get on at the far east of the line tend to go all the way downtown.

That's a scenario that LRT would be a good solution for.

Originally Posted by mic67

The LTR will be much more expensive to build and depending on how that is, it could be more expensive to maintain in the future like the Garbage expressway in Toronto ( Gardner xpress).

You're just pulling things out of your ass here. You don't know this. Don't you read my posts? The provincial government wants to pay for Hamilton to build this. The city of Hamilton will have to cover the operating costs, which will be lower than with buses. It makes economic sense to choose LRT.

Originally Posted by mic67

You say that the LTR will attract new riders? who are they and were do they work and live? I think the largest employer in Hamilton is the City itself. How much of an increase in new riders? Hamilton is a car culture city, the mountain is like Scarbeeria, in TO, the redevelopment of Centre Mall is for cars and there has been no improvement in the plan to improve transit in this development.

There is a car culture everywhere, that doesn't mean steps shouldn't be taken to change that. The lower city is a perfect place to start because it is one of the few large urban areas in Canada that predates the car.

Originally Posted by mic67

The comparison is to examples of rapid transit, I lived in north york before the subway and what was happening there would have happened anyway subway or not, mississauga of the north and there was no significant extention of subway to MISS.. Scarbeerian has LRT, I dont think it has ever been called a great success? Nor has it strengthened any local economy.

Mississauga would benefit greatly from LRT and they are looking into it. Scarborough would be worse off without LRT. What's your point?

Originally Posted by mic67

Hamilton walkable neighbourhoods.....LOL hardly anyone walks anywhere in Hamilton, except from Catherine to James st..

This is a ridiculous assertion. There is far more pedestrian traffic in Hamilton's lower city than other similar sized cities in Canada. Even if there weren't, Hamilton's built form is more walkable than most cities for the reasons that I explained briefly in my post above. Please use something other than Toronto as your reference point.

Originally Posted by mic67

Miss. and North York became what they are because of their dependance on and distance to Toronto.

That's pretty obvious.

Originally Posted by mic67

The use and need of LRT and rapid transit where I suggested has been in need for decades and it has still not happened, that ought to be a clue, what city in Ontario has LRT or rapid transit besides Toronto? Heck what cities in Canada? Nothing east of Montreal???

So lets keep this real.

mic67

There are only two cities of any size east of Montreal. West of Montreal, let's see: Ottawa has the O-train and busways; Calgary and Edmonton have light rail. Winnipeg, like Hamilton should have some type of rapid transit. Vancouver's Skytrain was originally proposed for Hamilton back in the early 80s.

If LRT hasn't happened in places it's not because of lack of need, it's because of lack of political will.

I am keeping this real, quite a few mid size cities are building light rail systems in the United States, the most car based culture. All kinds of studies have been done. There is no doubt that light rail is beneficial and preferable

I'm not going to argue with you any further. All this has been said before. I suggest you search through this site and others and learn a bit about this stuff.

[mic67]

Ok...
When I was living in Toronto it was about 5 miles to downtown, say city hall. Now in Hamilton its about the same distance. In TO the best time was 30min to destination. In Ham. 21mins or 9mins with the b-line. But sometimes the wait to get on transit in TO could add sig. plus time (15+mins -TTC take the car), not so in Ham. except on sundays or Barton st. -enough times. Taking Barton to downtown from the same east point takes 30% longer.
mic67

[mic67]

If most are going from eastgate to downtown then a super b-line ought to exist, stopping at parkdale, ottawa, sherman and then Jackson square, I believe the LRT will not help any street store front on Main, but rather the long distance traveller.

The province is not going to pay for an LTR with Ham. only paying the operating costs, from what I have read or at least understood, regardless Ham. will have to come up with some of the construction costs 30%?

Hey I made it clear I am not against the LTR, those that use the King bus tend to go for longer distances and I dont beleve that an LRT will improve any commercial opportunities on Main st. more likely worsen them.

Look you admit Miss. needs LRT and they still dont have it (that ought to mean something to you) and they need it more than Ham. for sure, why havent they done it already? Sure they are looking in to it, but they havent done it because they at least for the present are being realistic - but certainly not future proofing the city.

I have been on the King bus and downtown enough to say that people in Ham. just dont walk to places that people in TO would and do, the empty store front are evidence of that and are the reason and cause of that.

If it is obvious to you that Miss. and North York became what they are because of their dependance on and distance to Toronto. Then it ought to be obvious that Ham. future is the same.

Ok cities with rapid trans. in Can. - Montreal, Ottawa, calgary, edmonton, vancouver. Which ones are siginificant and which are not?

You have consistenly fail to answer:
You say that the LTR will attract new riders? who are they and were do they work and live? I think the largest employer in Hamilton is the City itself. How much of an increase in new riders?

Yes alot of this has been said before and I am just agreeing with what I believe to be realistic that has already been said.

What would be great is to actually see some images of what an LTR would look like on the Main st of Ham.

I am guessing that a 2 way LRT on Main would leave 1 lane each way for cars and no street parking on Main??? Or will the LRT be elevated - to what height? And given that the riders already tend to be long distancers - any elevation of the LRT would make the tagged neighbourhood the LRT passes through even more of a Getto than it already appears as to visitors of this city.

mic67

[adam]

Just like any form of rapid transit, development expands radially outward from stops/hubs.

Also, there are fewer and fewer empty storefronts in the downtown every year. Its still a lot less developed than Hamilton 75 years ago, but just walk along King St downtown and you'll see a lot of places that were empty 2 years ago.

[adam]

Just like any form of rapid transit, development expands radially outward from stops/hubs.

Also, there are fewer and fewer empty storefronts in the downtown every year. Its still a lot less developed than Hamilton 75 years ago, but just walk along King St downtown and you'll see a lot of places that weren't there 5 years ago.

[mic67]

FairHamilton says:
"While I agree with many things you say, please don't sell Hamilton short.

Hamilton does have these 'Big City' things;
- Nationally and Internationally recognized University (McMaster) and a Community College (Mohawk)
- World class medical facilities (McMaster, General)
- Significant Art Gallery (AGH)
- HECFI (large scale concerts and shows - Copps, Hamilton Place)
- Thriving arts culture - Art Crawl, Makers Market and more
- Individual distinctive Neighbourhoods (Locke, Ottawa, James North, Barton, Concession)
- National Sports Team (Ticats)
- Royal Botanical Gardens
- International Airport (Munro)"
------------------------

For some reason Mac, just doesnt seem to be part of Ham. but and enclave, unlike say the way UofT and Ryerson is to Toronto.

-the AGH havent been there yet, though it has a good location but never appears to be busy and maybe over looked
-HECFI - Ham. only gets what it gets because it is close to TO. no NHL, NBA, madonna..lol
-Arts culture seems to exist by I have had no experience with it yet, in TO you can not help but experience it
-I have been to all the hoods you list, ok I am still a torontoite, but honestly when I did my walking tours I was left disappointed
-Ticats - I havent been to a game yet but I have been down in the area when there has been a game on, anyone know what the cheapest seats cost and where they are?
-the Royal is a nice place and I havent been there since I was a youngin - but once you have seen it how many times do you go back??
-Munro - I think he was a great guy, but how much has that designation of international actually done for Ham? Do people still go to Buff. for flights?

The speculators and developers I have had discussions with do believe in Ham. potential but not just yet, maybe another decade or 2.

I have done some research and the entertainment scene is way limited in Ham., where do the Cougars hang out :} LOL

mic67

[markbarbera]

Okay I'll jump into the fray here as well.

Frankly, anyone who thinks that Hamilton is not 'ready' for LRT needs to become more familiar with the city, or at least the urban portions of the city. The population density is certainly there to support LRT, and thhe overcrowded riding conditions on lower city east-west bus routes demonstrate the need for LRT's higher occupancy carriages. There is some validity to questioning the value of an immediate implementation of a mountain LRT route. Having said that, I feel obliged to point out the mountain LRT is in the later stages of LRT and is at least a decade off from now. Personal experience of late has caused me to reconsider my initial hesitance in believing in the need for LRT on the mountain, at the very least to better serve rush our commuting. The early evening Upper Sherman bus I was taking for a couple months on my way to Henderson hospital was consistently packed to a degree reminisent of the King bus.

I notice people trying to compare LRT to Toronto's subway system, which frankly is an invalid comparison. Subways are much more costly both to build and operate and require higher population density levels to be considered viable. LRT requires density levels of 60 people per hectare (counting both residents and job positions) to be viable. Ideally, the density should be 120 pph. This number is definitely present along most of the current B-line route, while the proposed A-line route is closer the 60 pph level. Not ideal, but not low enough for the project to be considered a white elepant.

It is vital that the economic impact of the construction of LRT be given proper consideration as well, particularly during difficult economic times. LRT attracts intensified development and redevelopment along its line, a fact proven time and time again wherever LRT is constructed. A well-considered LRT line can act as a catalyst to guide nodal development intesification that matches the city's GRIDS plan and supports the province's Places to Grow legislation.

Finally, LRT does attract more people to use public transit than buses do. Convenience and improved trip times are only part of the reason why they do so. More importantly, LRT is seen as a more desirable method of transportation than a bus. People who would never consider taking a bus will take rail because of its superior levle of comfortable and reliable transport. This is a not simpy conjecture, but has been proven as fact on several occasions. The introduction of LRT in Portland Oregon and Dublin Ireland brought unprecedented nubers of ridership to the public transit systems, the vastmajority of whom were commuters that would never consider taking a bus.

[flar]

Seriously mic67, most of the statements you are making are demonstrably false, such as "the largest employer is the city itself" or "the entertainment scene is way limited in Hamilton." Arm yourself with some basic information before you post. You seem down on Hamilton and like to point out the negatives. We're aware of Hamilton's negatives, we have enough people that think Hamilton is not good enough.

[mic67]

"thhe overcrowded riding conditions on lower city east-west bus routes demonstrate the need for LRT's higher occupancy carriages."

Only a few time have I been on the King during rush hour and again most of those are long distance travellers. None of those times has it been anywhere near the crowing that exist in the transit system in TO. During any other time on the HSR very few riders are left without a seat, so an LRT based on peak hours is not reasonable.

Ham. will be getting 18 new double buses shortly. Hey what about double decker buses, surely that is an/the answer or they don exist in N.America.

Well if your figs. are correct and the density supports LRT, the ridership does not?

I try to travel in off-peak and I am generally willing to take any east-west and not just the closest to home - meaning Delaware, king, cannon, barton - generally this applies to the return from downtown.

mic67

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by mic67

"thhe overcrowded riding conditions on lower city east-west bus routes demonstrate the need for LRT's higher occupancy carriages."

Only a few time have I been on the King during rush hour and again most of those are long distance travellers. None of those times has it been anywhere near the crowing that exist in the transit system in TO. During any other time on the HSR very few riders are left without a seat, so an LRT based on peak hours is not reasonable.

Ham. will be getting 18 new double buses shortly. Hey what about double decker buses, surely that is an/the answer or they don exist in N.America.

Well if your figs. are correct and the density supports LRT, the ridership does not?

I try to travel in off-peak and I am generally willing to take any east-west and not just the closest to home - meaning Delaware, king, cannon, barton - generally this applies to the return from downtown.

mic67

First off, your few rides along King will not demonstrate its overall ridership conditions. I can say from personal experience of riding HSR daily that ridership on King is certainly not restricted to long distance travellers. And the bus is almost always packed. The only time it is not is late evening or weekends.

Yes, density does support LRT. As I stated in my previous post, current ridership on buses is only a fraction of what would constitute ridership on LRT. The demographics of those who would ride LRT simply do not ride buses because they do not like the experience of riding a bus. LRT is simply much more attractive to that demographic.

Double-decker buses are not very viable in Hamilton due to low underpasses. And introducing new bus styles still does not overcome the challenge of attracting new riders to a less appealing bus system.

[mic67]

"the largest employer is the city itself"

When I did the research on Ham. this was from the "my hamilton" site? if not the largest within the top 3, as I recall.

Flar -please demonstrate.....

"the entertainment scene is way limited in Hamilton."

I was downtown on boxing day and thought the city was closed. From the time I have been downtown in the evening and on weekends it looks rather empty.

I have been to Hess during the day this past summer and what was the Funky Monkey was closed and looked like it had been for some time, 2 other places were under reno..

Flar where are any recommendations, so far one HSR driver recommened Sainte...yes I have look at the View and have seen some of the places.

"You seem down on Hamilton and like to point out the negatives. "

Are the negs. greater than the +'s in Ham?
To improve Ham. it the negs. that have to be discussed more than the +'s.

A year ago I came back to Ham after about 27 years and my impression of hamilton is much less then when I left hamilton 27 years ago, the time I spent in Ham. over 27 years ago were some of the best and it was a great place to growup then.

Actually I have had plenty of discussions with business owners and they are more down and neg. on Ham. than anyone, period.

Ok...some of the +'s #1 housing is affordable, there is a good transit system with a good bunch of drivers, confederation park, bruce trail, cootes, and the like.

Flar you have difficulties with other beliefs and opinions. I have studied with alot of internationals and to a significant extent they had an advantage of being foreign and could relate to things differently. That is sort of how I feel with Ham., I have and am spending plenty of time getting to know hamilton, specifically. But I also know how it WAS like.

It is hard to appreciate the +'s when you are experiencing so much tagging and garbage. BTW I was in TO on Dec18 and walk down yonge st from bloor to college and saw only 2 tagged sites, then I walked along Queen St W for about 1 mile and only saw the same limited tagging, TO is a clean reasonably well kept city, Ham. lower city is not. It is enough to be negative, I live in the lower city every day Dundas is NOT Ham.

Mic67

[mic67]

The few rides have been at rush hour, I have had more than a few rides at non-rush hour, again it was never packed and that is not evening and weekends but during the day. There are not just long distance riders, but most are - from my experience. Packed is the King or Queen Street car at rush hour in toronto.

For example not many go from say sherman to gage, kind of trips or travel, there is no reason for that no "destination" per say.

"The demographics of those who would ride LRT simply do not ride buses because they do not like the experience of riding a bus. "

LOL, I have heard this before, what specifically dont they like about riding the buses as opposed to an LRT? I will say that the double buses on the 2nd half may only be fun for kids and moving around is best when stopped. But those double are still relatively new to Ham. so that could not be the reason. Is it rather that an LRT is a more "classy" way to travel?

mic67

Mic67

[emge]

Originally Posted by mic67

The few rides have been at rush hour, I have had more than a few rides at non-rush hour, again it was never packed and that is not evening and weekends but during the day. There are not just long distance riders, but most are - from my experience. Packed is the King or Queen Street car at rush hour in toronto.

For example not many go from say sherman to gage, kind of trips or travel, there is no reason for that no "destination" per say.

"The demographics of those who would ride LRT simply do not ride buses because they do not like the experience of riding a bus. "

LOL, I have heard this before, what specifically dont they like about riding the buses as opposed to an LRT? I will say that the double buses on the 2nd half may only be fun for kids and moving around is best when stopped. But those double are still relatively new to Ham. so that could not be the reason. Is it rather that an LRT is a more "classy" way to travel?

mic67

Mic67

Perception does play a significant part in who decides to ride transit, and I wouldn't discount it because you don't understand how that works.

If you know Toronto, you likely know that many people who ride the subway from their condo at Yonge and Sheppard or their house in Rosedale to work downtown or the Eaton Centre to shop will still look disdainfully upon riding a bus anywhere- it's the same type of thing.

[mic67]

FLAR

http://www.tourismhamilton.com/pagedetail.cfm?id=48

"Top Ten Employers

Hamilton’s Top Ten Employers by Number of Employees

Hamilton Health Sciences
City of Hamilton
Stelco Inc.
Dofasco Inc.
McMaster University
Government of Canada
National Steel Car Ltd.
St Josephs Healthcare Hamilton, St Josephs Hospital
Mohawk College of Applied Arts and Technology
Orlick Industries Ltd."

------------------------------
Flar
"Seriously mic67, most of the statements you are making are demonstrably false, such as "the largest employer is the city itself"

"You're just pulling things out of your ass here." ( somewhat out of context but relevant to the above quote)
------------------------------

Ok...the city is the #2 Employer now, but when I lasted looked it was #1, are you feeling a little constipated now...LOL

cheers,
mic67

[mic67]

"If you know Toronto, you likely know that many people who ride the subway from their condo at Yonge and Sheppard or their house in Rosedale to work downtown or the Eaton Centre to shop will still look disdainfully upon riding a bus anywhere- it's the same type of thing."
----------------------------------------

Actually in fact those in Rosedale drive regardless, yep the condo uses will take the subway , afterall that is why they bought them in their location in the first place, but the larger (est) would be the park and ride, like from Yorkdale or Finch station and other such places. And they do so not in distain of the bus but rather the bus feeder system was lacking and not timely for them, as well as the parking cost of downtown. I know that is what I did when living in North York.

mic67

[emge]

Perhaps times have changed since you moved back? That certainly wasn't my experience from the individuals I knew in Toronto. Many of the very wealthy drive from Rosedale, but there are many million-dollar+ townhomes there sold for their proximity to the subway and the prestige of the neighbourhood. These same individuals would never consider taking the bus. (Even some of those who live in mansions take the subway... you might be surprised).

The condo users from North York will also take the subway downtown, but they are often the same ones who keep their cars in underground parking garages for all their other activities. They will often drive when their only option is a bus, or if they ever have to go east/west in the city instead of downtown. There's far more cars parked at those condos from those who take transit to work than at the (free) Park 'n ' Ride at Finch or paid ones such as Islington.

I hesitate putting in the GO train analogy (since it's a faster train that covers a greater distance) but perhaps you'll understand this one better:

Those who take the GO train from Markham and other areas north of Toronto almost invariably own cars, and they certainly do not take bus transit locally, but to drive downtown is ridiculous cost-wise or time-wise.

Although the GO trains are faster, the same concept applies, in that you're attempting to reduce the number of parked cars downtown and the gridlock (a massive problem, and one of the main things Metrolinx is trying to address) - problems that will only get worse and worse without good transit systems.

Remember, we're not just talking about anyone who already rides a bus and would appreciate a faster/cleaner/smoother ride. We're talking about the potential new riders - those who currently drive downtown and park their cars all day; or those with money to spend at downtown businesses who would otherwise drive there.

These people can be attracted by cost-effectiveness, convenience, and yes, image -- those are the ones to whom an LRT is an "attractive" option and a bus is not, and they are definitely affected by image as well as speed and cost. In ten years, those people will still put up with gridlock and parking instead of take a bus -- but they will ride a LRT system.