VIA Rail network developments

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by JohnnyRenton

I have no doubt that the situation/solution in Montreal will be complicated and expensive, and delay VIA's ability to launch a new line to Quebec City. Given the mess that exists there it could be 5 or 10 years after the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto section starts construction before we see any shovels in the ground on that part of the project, if they opt for a long-term, forward thinking plan.

I’m not convinced that it’s a complication. As said in this blog Desjardins-Siciliano is said to have “claimed that both the VIA HFR and REM project are complementary and that there are zero impacts for VIA beyond the ‘usual construction impacts’ that you’d expect from a project of this size.” This implies to me that VIA has a different plan that doesn’t use the tunnel but, given their strong support for REM, possibly relies on it.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is already a late train to Kingston. It arrives just before 10 pm and stays there overnight.

I can’t see any way people in Kingston or other Lakeshore communities will see this as an improvement.

One glaring improvement Kingston could use is morning trains to Ottawa and Montreal. Right now if you want to get from Kingston to Ottawa, the first train doesn't arrive until mid-day (because it can't leave Toronto much earlier than 5am-ish), so Kingstoners can't use VIA to get to Ottawa before start of business day. A 6am departure from Kingston to Ottawa would be very useful.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by CityTech

One glaring improvement Kingston could use is morning trains to Ottawa and Montreal. Right now if you want to get from Kingston to Ottawa, the first train doesn't arrive until mid-day (because it can't leave Toronto much earlier than 5am-ish), so Kingstoners can't use VIA to get to Ottawa before start of business day. A 6am departure from Kingston to Ottawa would be very useful.

Also, since trains on the Lakeshore route will not have to be quite as speed conscious for passengers originating from Montreal and Ottawa, more trains will be able to stop at intermediate cities between Kingston and Toronto. This will be an improvement in service.

[Buggys]

Why have Kingston as the hub? Why not the bigger city which also connects with both the yellow and blue lines -- Ottawa?

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Buggys

Why have Kingston as the hub? Why not the bigger city which also connects with both the yellow and blue lines -- Ottawa?

Good Day.

HFR for MTL-TO as a direct link, through Ottawa, with minimal stops in between (sub-rosa leading to HSR) is not in question. It's just plain faster and cleaner.

I think that Kingston as a control hub for Lakeshore - St.Lawrence services makes immense sense.
And earlier comments have specified VIA's reasoning for better start-and-end-of-day schedule services all up and down the length of the lines.

And I have to tend to think and believe that VIA has done some real customer traffic analysis on this and determined that Ottawa,
for service along the legacy and re-developed Lakeshore and St.Lawrence routes (MTL and TO), really and truely is a 'side-track'.
A few Ottawa customers to any station on those routes will feed through trains controlled through Kingston. Most OTT customers want MTL or TO.
And most of the customers on the Lakeshore - St.Lawrence probably want MTL or TO, and only a few want OTT.
(I have no stats nor numbers for this, only a belief that this is the origin-destination analysis. And I am ready to be shot down for it.)

And finally, recall that roger1818's map is from an earlier proposal, and that this proposal is mainly and chiefly for TO-OTT-MTL only.
On to Quebec would be one of two next-phase proposals in the future, after this one has worked.

IMHO, for consideration.

[White Pine]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I don't quite understand that map. Yellow is HFR and blue is continued regular service for the seaway cities and towns? And how is Kingston a hub?

Colour= Track Ownership. Yellow represents track that would be owned by Via.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I’m not convinced that it’s a complication. As said in this blog Desjardins-Siciliano is said to have “claimed that both the VIA HFR and REM project are complementary and that there are zero impacts for VIA beyond the ‘usual construction impacts’ that you’d expect from a project of this size.” This implies to me that VIA has a different plan that doesn’t use the tunnel but, given their strong support for REM, possibly relies on it.

I don’t think there have been any clues as to what they’re planning in Montreal. The most practical solution would be to build a station North of the mountain and let let downtown passengers transfer to the REM, but people fixate on having a “downtown” station, so that would be a hard sell.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don’t think there have been any clues as to what they’re planning in Montreal. The most practical solution would be to build a station North of the mountain and let let downtown passengers transfer to the REM, but people fixate on having a “downtown” station, so that would be a hard sell.

I can’t see Via abandoning downtown Montreal, as that has to be the biggest destination for its passengers. Tell a businessperson from Ottawa that their train ends in TMR and they need to transfer to REM to get to their destination, and I think they are much less likely to take the train.

TMR is a low density area that is not particularly central from a transportation perspective, with existing and planned networks all centred on downtown. A lot of trips from there would require a trip downtown and then a transfer to head back out of the city. There is a reason a downtown station makes more sense.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

I can’t see Via abandoning downtown Montreal, as that has to be the biggest destination for its passengers. Tell a businessperson from Ottawa that their train ends in TMR and they need to transfer to REM to get to their destination, and I think they are much less likely to take the train.

TMR is a low density area that is not particularly central from a transportation perspective, with existing and planned networks all centred on downtown. A lot of trips from there would require a trip downtown and then a transfer to head back out of the city. There is a reason a downtown station makes more sense.

I think those are all good points, but Via’s cost estimates don’t seem to include extensive infrastructure such as tunnels, so it is hard to see how they would otherwise make the time estimates. A significant chunk of time gets spent on the Island.

[MichelKazan]

Random unrelated question based on some of the readings on this thread:

Why can't Via Rail operate between midnight and 5 AM? Maintenance? Is it a union thing?

I've always found it annoying that the last trains leave so early in the evening.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by MichelKazan

Random unrelated question based on some of the readings on this thread:

Why can't Via Rail operate between midnight and 5 AM? Maintenance? Is it a union thing?

I've always found it annoying that the last trains leave so early in the evening.

They ran a night train between Toronto and Montreall a few years ago, so I don’t think there are any rules. I just don’t think there is much demand to arrive in the middle of the night.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

They ran a night train between Toronto and Montreall a few years ago, so I don’t think there are any rules. I just don’t think there is much demand to arrive in the middle of the night.

Yup. On pg.9 of the 2017 ANNUAL PUBLIC MEETING – QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS it says:

12. Would love to ride the overnight Toronto-Montreal train again, any hope of it returning?
VIA Rail bases its train frequencies on customer demand. This train was cancelled over 20 years ago due to low ridership and there currently no plans to bring it back.

With HFR demand might pick up for overnight trains between Toronto and Ottawa/Montreal to be viable. Not sure if VIA can spare the sleepers though.

[lrt's friend]

A train departing from Toronto at 8 pm would arrive in Ottawa 12:00 to 12:30. A train departing Montreal at 10 pm would arrive in Ottawa around midnight.

Why does this not occur rather than an overnight sleeper train?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

A train departing from Toronto at 8 pm would arrive in Ottawa 12:00 to 12:30. A train departing Montreal at 10 pm would arrive in Ottawa around midnight.

Why does this not occur rather than an overnight sleeper train?

I would guess there isn’t much demand. It is too late for most people who have to work the next day and too early for most evening activities in Toronto.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

A train departing from Toronto at 8 pm would arrive in Ottawa 12:00 to 12:30. A train departing Montreal at 10 pm would arrive in Ottawa around midnight.

Why does this not occur rather than an overnight sleeper train?

If I remember correctly, the old sleeper train departed around 11:00 pm, which would give you 3 more hours in Toronto or Montreal. With the earlier train, you would have to stay in a hotel anyway (unless of course you were going home), so it doesn’t really save you anything.

Originally Posted by acottawa

I would guess there isn’t much demand. It is too late for most people who have to work the next day and too early for most evening activities in Toronto.

Exactly. The thing about any form of mass transit is you need to have a large percentage of seats filled to make them economical. Trains have a large capacity so need to fill more seats for them to work. That’s one of the beauties of the HFR plan is that empty seats on a Montreal-Toronto train can be filled with Montreal-Ottawa and Ottawa-Toronto passengers. This makes it easier to justify increasing service frequency. Of course increasing frequency increases demand, thus causing a snowball effect.

I never understood why they didn’t run the sleeper trains through Ottawa. It isn’t as if they were short of time, and they could have picked up/drooped off more passengers.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The biggest issue I have with this project is that it uses diesel power, again. If we are truly serious about helping the environment, this system should be electric.

That hasn’t been decided yet. One of the requirements for the new fleet is that they be capable of using electric and diesel power.

From RFQ # 201804002:

Since there is an urgency to replace the existing diesel powered fleet for services in the current Corridor which is provided on non-electrified infrastructure, the initial order of 32 trainsets will be diesel powered only, with a required provision for future diesel and electric operation,

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Are you suggesting that trains to Ottawa and Montreal somehow use the tunnel?
I had only ever heard talk of using it for trains to Quebec City. It is trains to/from the west that really have to slow down on approach.

I was referring to Mount Royal for the Québec City route, and for Ottawa an eventual tunnel to old Union.

As others have said, currently yes but that’s changing with HFR, if approved.

I wasn't aware before. Union would make sense if it were high-speed rail since the delay would be minimal, but with HFR, the benefits of re-opening Union might be outweighed by the time wasted.

I’m not convinced VIA would want to use it for their HFR trains. They might use it for regional trains, kind of like what is done in Brussels (all intercity trains stop in Midi station, but you can transfer to a regional train to Central station).

I wasn't aware before. Union would make sense if it were high-speed rail since the delay would be minimal, but with HFR, the benefits of re-opening Union might be outweighed by the time wasted.

Originally Posted by White Pine

Colour= Track Ownership. Yellow represents track that would be owned by Via.

I understood that. I was wondering if they would end up with two lines. The answer seems to be yes, the higher speed, dedicated TO-OT-MTL line and maintain the existing shared line to serve the Seaway cities and towns.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That hasn’t been decided yet. One of the requirements for the new fleet is that they be capable of using electric and diesel power.

From RFQ # 201804002:

Thanks for that. Depends on Federal funding I assume. Let's hope they step up and do what's best instead of trying to save a few dollars now which will end up costing more and be very disruptive further down the line.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I was referring to Mount Royal for the Québec City route, and for Ottawa an eventual tunnel to old Union.

So what do you propose to resolve the extremely slow approach to Central station to/from the west?

I wasn't aware before. Union would make sense if it were high-speed rail since the delay would be minimal, but with HFR, the benefits of re-opening Union might be outweighed by the time wasted.

First of all, I don’t see HSR happening any time soon. Secondly, HSR trains tend to slow down in urban areas, so both HSR and HFR will have a similar additional delay (especially if the train still stops at Tremblay)

I also question the benefit. If roughly half the passengers aren’t getting off on Ottawa and roughly half of those those that do aren’t going downtown, then only roughly a quarter of the passengers would benefit from the additional delay.

I understood that. I was wondering if they would end up with two lines. The answer seems to be yes, the higher speed, dedicated TO-OT-MTL line and maintain the existing shared line to serve the Seaway cities and towns.

Yes. The southern route will have regional rail and the northern route will have mostly HFR (ie IC) trains.

Thanks for that. Depends on Federal funding I assume. Let's hope they step up and do what's best instead of trying to save a few dollars now which will end up costing more and be very disruptive further down the line.

Yes. It goes up from about $4-Billion to about $6-Billion according to initial estimates. They have since done a study which will have more accurate numbers but it hasn’t been released yet.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I never understood why they didn’t run the sleeper trains through Ottawa. It isn’t as if they were short of time, and they could have picked up/drooped off more passengers.

I remember taking a return trip on that train once, it was awesome. It was much nicer rolling down the tracks while you were asleep in a bed as opposed to during the daytime, when a 5+ hour train ride in an upright seat can feel a bit long. I also liked approaching downtown Toronto and Montreal while sipping a morning coffee in the dome car.

Anyway, I also wondered why train didn't go through Ottawa. It's not like they couldn't spare the time... the train parked in Kingston for several hours in each direction to kill time and ensure arrival at a reasonable hour.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I was referring to Mount Royal for the Québec City route, and for Ottawa an eventual tunnel to old Union.

Union in Ottawa isn't coming back. When Confederation line finally opens, the current VIA station at Tremblay will be sufficiently well connected to downtown.

Besides, the Senate is going to occupy old Union for at least 10 years.