PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by daviderik

Absolutely. The old plan was a real gem. From the townhouses to the steps falling down the hill. But the real issue is [b]finding investors[/b[, and pleasing the local residence. (Which are vocal minority of never happy, shortsighted babies). The developer should hang tough though. In a few years they'll all say "why didn't we build bigger".

Well, that's just the thing. A rather recent news article stated that picking up investors/financing should become easier as the local hotel market picks up even more steam. Hotel Monaco will be opening soon, and an Embassy Suites is on the horizon only a few blocks away.

Originally Posted by Private Dick

This is a rookie "developer" attempting to undertake a big -- and very risky -- project. It shouldn't be surprising that it's moving so slowly.



So the bureaucrats who engage in city planning initiatives are the ones who scaled back the proposal? Interesting... I had no idea.

If a 5-star hotel thought it could do well up on Mt. Washington, that's what we would see being proposed.

Ok, I realize my "bureaucrats" remark was not at all used correctly. That should have been reserved for another topic; that's how I feel about city planning in general.

This city should be thinking big and outside the box.

You're right tho. That one was solely on the developer essentially backing out of the luxury hotel proposal, but I'm thinking that that proposal should be reconsidered especially with the hotel boom continuing, especially with the construction of the Hotel Monaco and Embassy Suites. Hotel developments such as those should be enticing investors in the high-end hotel market I would think...

Originally Posted by GeneW

Bakery Square set to expand again.

Seems to be quite a few tech companies moving from the suburbs into city lately. They mention Autodesk in the story but both Resumator and Avere have recently moved from the North Hills to The Strip and The North Side respectively.

That would be a very nice addition. All these stories I hear about how East Liberty is booming just make me think of what my wife and I heard that one guy say at a Downtown Wendy's one morning. "East Liberty is ruined."

Yeah, ok. So when it was a crime and rat-infested ghetto it was the best place in the entire city? OKAY!!!

[BrianTH]

These days, I think a new 5-star hotel would likely want to be in Downtown.

But their plan for a 125-room boutique hotel sounds a lot more viable.

[markson33]

Originally Posted by JVC

any word on when walnut capital plans to begin demolition for the new penn-highland building in east liberty?

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/dev...rgets-ex-PNC-branch/stories/201411180068

In the next few months. Demo should be well underway in spring.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

These days, I think a new 5-star hotel would likely want to be in Downtown.

But their plan for a 125-room boutique hotel sounds a lot more viable.

Exactly. A "5-star" hotel is only going to build in close proximity to other like amenities. Mt. Washington certainly just doesn't cut it yet for that, but I do see how a boutique hotel could be successful... and contribute to helping transform the Mt. Washington neighborhood.

[BrianTH]

I think what I would most like to see make a comeback is the public plaza/overlook they had back in the original design. It would make a nice focal point for the end/start of a Grandview walk or incline trip.

I also wonder if a public staircase down to Station Square (possibly in a future phase) is still in the plan.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by GeneW

Bakery Square set to expand again.

Seems to be quite a few tech companies moving from the suburbs into city lately. They mention Autodesk in the story but both Resumator and Avere have recently moved from the North Hills to The Strip and The North Side respectively.

Bakery Square 2.0, 2.0? Or is it 2.1? or 3.0?

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Exactly. A "5-star" hotel is only going to build in close proximity to other like amenities. Mt. Washington certainly just doesn't cut it yet for that, but I do see how a boutique hotel could be successful... and contribute to helping transform the Mt. Washington neighborhood.

Mt Washington will never be a 5 star neighborhood. It's mostly filled with midde to lower class housing and has almost no business district to rehab. I work on Mt Washington and walk around it and frankly, i'm not too impressed.

[eschaton]

Saw this over the weekend. Seems the "Mellon's Orchard" brand is also being used for a small group of infill houses around N Saint Clair and Rural.

The map shows eight new-construction houses. I'm not sure this is correct though, because there are two standing houses in the area, one of which is an old frame house which need some love, and the other is a recently rehabbed house on Rippey. So I'm guessing it's 1-2 rehabs and 6-7 infill houses.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

Bakery Square 2.0, 2.0? Or is it 2.1? or 3.0?

2.0.3

(2.0 is the name for the whole west of Penn planned complex, and this is the third project in the complex after the apartment building and the first office building).

[TBone7281]

Took a quick walk between meetings. Lots of activity now that it isn't stupid cold at the moment.

Not much to see at The Yards, but they are still pushing around dirt, etc. It's a pretty big work site.


Some concrete block going up at 3 Crossing.




2500 Smallman




Not much left of Ayoob/Banana Co.




PNC Tower looking pretty decent. New road going in for Buncher's Riverfront Landing development. (I assume this is going to be considered an extension of Railroad St.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

Mt Washington will never be a 5 star neighborhood. It's mostly filled with midde to lower class housing and has almost no business district to rehab. I work on Mt Washington and walk around it and frankly, i'm not too impressed.

That seems a little unfair. The Shiloh Street business district is cute and fun already, and Grandview is spectacular (although underutilized in terms of public amenities along that stretch outside of the viewing platforms). Moreover, the site in question is itself big enough to take on some life of its own. I also wonder if eventually Wyoming down to Sycamore and Sycamore back up to Shiloh could be sort of colonized and converted into a part of the commercial district. There is also that modest garage between Shiloh/Beam and Virginia that could probably be redeveloped with ground floor retail on at least the Shiloh/Beam side.

On top of all that, with the Incline right there and plans to redevelop the eastern portions of Station Square, I think that could eventually function as one big "split level" area. The aforementioned stairs could help at least psychologically (even if most people would probably take the Incline up, they might also circulate down the stairs, and if it was lit well it could really help tie together the two levels visually). I have in mind Vieux Quebec's Haute-Ville and Basse-Ville, which have a sort of similar relation to a river and are also tied together by a combination of public steps and a funicular:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Quebec

Vieux Québec la nuit by Djof, on Flickr

That said, I agree 5-star is a stretch. However, I can see at least that corner becoming a very charming, tourist-draw sort of neighborhood, similar in vibe to the South Side during the day (maybe not so much the South Side at night).

[BrianTH]

I believe the new Buncher road is going to be called Waterfront Place, but it appears it will in fact be continuous with Railroad (the name change will probably happen at 21st).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That seems a little unfair. The Shiloh Street business district is cute and fun already, and Grandview is spectacular (although underutilized in terms of public amenities along that stretch outside of the viewing platforms). Moreover, the site in question is itself big enough to take on some life of its own. I also wonder if eventually Wyoming down to Sycamore and Sycamore back up to Shiloh could be sort of colonized and converted into a part of the commercial district. There is also that modest garage between Shiloh/Beam and Virginia that could probably be redeveloped with ground floor retail on at least the Shiloh/Beam side.

There was a big discussion about this at the "other place" last week. Shiloh is great, but it's not really walkable to most of Mount Washington (not to mention Duquense Heights, due to the sheer size of the neighborhood, along with topographical issues. Really if you'd want Mount Washington to be "hot" you'd need to develop 3-4 accessory business districts which would be walkable from the other portions.

[Minivan Werner]

It may be nitpicking but I like Railroad Street to Waterfront Place... it fits the history of the neighborhood better and Waterfront Place sounds suburban-y.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That seems a little unfair. The Shiloh Street business district is cute and fun already, and Grandview is spectacular (although underutilized in terms of public amenities along that stretch outside of the viewing platforms). Moreover, the site in question is itself big enough to take on some life of its own. I also wonder if eventually Wyoming down to Sycamore and Sycamore back up to Shiloh could be sort of colonized and converted into a part of the commercial district. There is also that modest garage between Shiloh/Beam and Virginia that could probably be redeveloped with ground floor retail on at least the Shiloh/Beam side.

On top of all that, with the Incline right there and plans to redevelop the eastern portions of Station Square, I think that could eventually function as one big "split level" area. The aforementioned stairs could help at least psychologically (even if most people would probably take the Incline up, they might also circulate down the stairs, and if it was lit well it could really help tie together the two levels visually). I have in mind Vieux Quebec's Haute-Ville and Basse-Ville, which have a sort of similar relation to a river and are also tied together by a combination of public steps and a funicular:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Quebec

Vieux Québec la nuit by Djof, on Flickr

That said, I agree 5-star is a stretch. However, I can see at least that corner becoming a very charming, tourist-draw sort of neighborhood, similar in vibe to the South Side during the day (maybe not so much the South Side at night).

I WISH I were more bullish on Mt Washington. And maybe I used words a little to harshly; But here are some of my thoughts:

- Grandview Ave is a destination and a must see for visitors. But there's nothing there to keep them there once they are done snapping a few pictures.
- Chatham Village is very cute and interesting but too small to shape the neighborhood in any particular way.
- The Shiloh Street business district is cute and nice but too small to be of much consequence. It isn't a draw for other areas of the city like E. Carson, or East Liberty or Lawreceville or The Strip.
- The housing stock is average. Not the worst in the city but often times not very compelling either.
- The streets that i use at least, are horrible. Grandview near my building is severely pot holed and beat up.
- My building is surrounded by no less than three parking lots and even a parking garage. There are way too many open lots in Mt Wash, even on Grandview! What gives?

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Saw this over the weekend. Seems the "Mellon's Orchard" brand is also being used for a small group of infill houses around N Saint Clair and Rural.

The map shows eight new-construction houses. I'm not sure this is correct though, because there are two standing houses in the area, one of which is an old frame house which need some love, and the other is a recently rehabbed house on Rippey. So I'm guessing it's 1-2 rehabs and 6-7 infill houses.

What I find interesting about this particular design that seems to be popular among infill is that it is taking a more suburban style house facade with space in between houses and then building what almost looks like a second house length wise into the long city lots. Instead of making them look like row houses or townhouses.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by eschaton

There was a big discussion about this at the "other place" last week. Shiloh is great, but it's not really walkable to most of Mount Washington (not to mention Duquense Heights, due to the sheer size of the neighborhood, along with topographical issues. Really if you'd want Mount Washington to be "hot" you'd need to develop 3-4 accessory business districts which would be walkable from the other portions.

So I think there are really two very distinct questions.

One is what it would take for Mt Washington in general to take off as a hot mixed-use neighborhood ala Lawrenceville. For that purpose, I agree the Shiloh Street area would be insufficient for large portions of the neighborhood. Generally, I don't necessarily see that happening as a general Mt Washington thing any time soon, although I think it could see steady appreciation, more infill and repurposing, and so forth.

A more limited question is what it would take to turn that one corner of Mt Washington into a more desirable place to visit, and possibly stay in a hotel. That's the sort of question I was addressing, and I do see a lot of potential for improvement.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Minivan Werner

It may be nitpicking but I like Railroad Street to Waterfront Place... it fits the history of the neighborhood better and Waterfront Place sounds suburban-y.

I agree about Railroad Street being more interesting and historical, but Waterfront Place strikes me as more just generic than specifically suburban. In fact I feel like I have seen it (or close variations) applied to new developments in many cities.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Minivan Werner

It may be nitpicking but I like Railroad Street to Waterfront Place... it fits the history of the neighborhood better and Waterfront Place sounds suburban-y.

Waterfront Place? Bleh. Buncher just has the worst taste.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

- Grandview Ave is a destination and a must see for visitors. But there's nothing there to keep them there once they are done snapping a few pictures. . . .
- The Shiloh Street business district is cute and nice but too small to be of much consequence. It isn't a draw for other areas of the city like E. Carson, or East Liberty or Lawreceville or The Strip. . . .
- My building is surrounded by no less than three parking lots and even a parking garage. There are way too many open lots in Mt Wash, even on Grandview! What gives?

So these three specific things are fixable, and in fact can be fixed in a complementary way. Smart development around the existing Shiloh commercial district--including the specific site we are talking about--could greatly expand the options for visitors in that area.

To be sure, I'm not imagining something as large in scale as the other commercial districts you mentioned, but I don't think it has to be in order to be a significant draw for visitors. That's in part because the view and Incline ride really do add to the draw, and in part because I do think tying it together with a rejuvenated Station Square would greatly expand the collective appeal of both levels.

In fact, if it was up to me I would be very aggressive about that branding. So, for example, if there was a new public plaza incorporated into this site, I would call it something like "Upper Station Square". And then I would encourage (perhaps just informally) the current Station Square to be called "Lower Station Square". And so forth.