ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[Nanosolar]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

Interesting article on "Optimal Building Height" I came across recently.

I struggle to understand people's complaints. This project is eating up multiple blocks of surface street parking, bringing active uses to many of the roads (ground level entrances and what appears to be retail along COP Drive), and bringing 400+ residents downtown. Despite some remarks, this is not a "high rise" district nor is it filled with high density or demand (considering this is the first residential project downtown in how long, I think that goes without saying). The museums and attractions across the street are sprawling single story attractions, the condos on W. Peachtree are 7 stories tall, caddy-corner is a neighborhood mostly comprised of two to three story townhomes / apartments, there's a stand alone Waffle House down the road, a Best-Western Hotel closer to Peachtree that's 4 stories tall, and I could go on and on.

Most high rises are vertical cul-de-sacs, meaning they can be very harmful to the urban environment. Look at Post Alexander, which some of you seem to be lauding. It's an impersonal high rise, on top of a parking deck, that does nothing to activate the street. There's a reason Buckhead is so "dead" in regards to urban activity. It's because they're all about high rises and not about the urban environment and I find it amusing that so many that want a lively city would seek to mimic that. I understand towers are neat, but towers aren't the solution to everything. Look at a city like Paris. Would you argue that any of it's low rise residential buildings aren't good enough? No, it's a great city, precisely because it has tons of low rise residential. Atlanta's issue isn't space. We have tons of space and we need to fill so we don't have all these vacant lots and underused real estate to make neighborhoods more inviting and active. This is exactly what this development does.

I would take this over any of the other Post proposals that have been put forth so far. This is perfect for the area, despite some people's illusions.

[simms3_redux]

I'm not a champion for continued development in Perimeter. I happen to agree with RobMidtowner that even the most urban parts of Atlanta have serious fundamental issues (DT and Midtown), but I think that they are not only fixable, I think basically all development should be concentrated between those two nodes. When I say all development, I'm referring to highrise office and dense multifamily. This is opinion, not what the market in Atlanta is clearly dictating (the Atlanta market itself is highly frustrating to me, which is why things happen slowly or not in the way we want them...blame your fellow Atlantans!).

I liken Perimeter to La Defense in Paris, except that La Defense is not only highly highly connected to every part of the Greater Paris area by RER and various forms of metro/transit, it is a response to a built out city that is highly against change/highrise (as opposed to London which welcomes whatever the hell you want to put anywhere and is actually not even that dense, parts being considerably less dense than here in SF). Midtown is like 10% built out (that will create a stir, but it really truly is not that built out, which is why there really aren't that many pedestrians), and yet Perimeter is already taking on more office/multifamily construction. It is not ready to handle more traffic. Neither is most of Atlanta. Yes, all cities have bad traffic. But Atlanta is actually a much smaller city than LA, DC, SF, Chicago, NYC, and gasp, even Houston. It is so so so spread out that it really takes a lot of land area to get to 5 million people, yet it has traffic like it has 10 million people. That is due to the horrible arterial road system (country roads, no grid, oversize blocks that are the largest in the nation) and lack of transit.

Putting a 50 story office tower on top of a far out suburban MARTA station won't really mean much. It's difficult to walk to lunch/entertainment/gym spots in Perimeter no matter how you look at it, so if you're white collar like everyone in that building will be, you will be driving, whether or not you are a 25 year old Millennial who goes out for lunch and needs to hit up a gym after work and then drinks, or if you are a 40+ with a family living somewhere in the burbs or Morningside Heights or Buckhead. The only folks that can truly use transit there would be those living in Midtown/Downtown who for whatever reason commute all the way up there. The Park N Ride at North Springs is only a couple miles away, so Park N Ride is a moot point.


Regarding the Post project downtown - honestly why do you guys think it will activate the area and be "better" than a podium garage building that you see in Buckhead AND right smack in Midtown? It's a more expansive building as the garage that would normally be the first 8 floors is now in the center courtyard, wrapped by low-rise residential. It's still car friendly and bad design. I am happy, though, that 2 large blocks are being taken up, but just because they say the exterior will be "masonry" does not have me necessarily excited.

What has me excited are the multifamily projects going up in Midtown. Still evidently "new south" style that I would protest heavily in an already urban city, but all projects that will very incrementally increase ground floor use critical mass and put more people in Midtown. I would love to see more small lot development such as next to Blake's, just without garages and built to the curbs.

And is anyone besides me miffed that MARTA is expanding north instead of expanding in the city? That will continue to ensure that suburban Perimeter (it will NEVER be urban or walkable) continues to grow/expand at the detriment of the central core, all unnecessarily of course.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Regarding the Post project downtown - honestly why do you guys think it will activate the area and be "better" than a podium garage building that you see in Buckhead AND right smack in Midtown? It's a more expansive building as the garage that would normally be the first 8 floors is now in the center courtyard, wrapped by low-rise residential. [/b]

The Post apartments are positive for several reasons, not the least of which is that they increase the number of people living downtown.

I agree with you about the buildings with parking on the first several floors that have been sprouting up around the city. My recollection is that Northside is planning a medical building in Midtown in which the first 9 or 10 floors will all be parking. Yes, we are a car oriented city, but is that really necessary?

[ATLcubs]

I was just looking at the Skyhouse Buckhead webcam and it looks like it's flying through the construction process, I drove by it just a few weeks ago and it looks like 6+ floors have been added in the time since. I know a lot of people aren't thrilled with having so many very similar looking Skyhouses all over the city, but all in all it's a good thing that they are being built, it is a sign of stability for the city.

[ATL_J]

@Simms3_redux

Perimeter's horrible road layout and current set back towers won't change, but the design / layout of the new development occurring there lends more to the area being walkable. Will the area suffer traffic issues? Sure, like all cities, and that will also limit and force certain types of development. I think you underestimate what Perimeter can become. I am not a huge fan of the area, but it definitely can change as it becomes more dense and more development occurs. Will it feel like Seattle or Midtown Atlanta, no, not at all, it'll be more like Buckhead, but it can be walkable and with access to MARTA it'll allow people in other areas of the city to get there as well (for example, many of my friends commute from Atlanta to Dunwoody for work via MARTA).

Regarding why I like the Post development downtown as opposed to a tower with a podium... Same sort of reason why you like the South Lake Union area of Seattle. Many of those buildings are of similar height to this development, the only difference is they have underground parking as opposed to a wrapped deck, but considering the deck is hidden from view, I don't see much difference from a walkability point of view. My biggest thing to make "Atlanta better and more livable" is people have to want to live in places like downtown and the key is to making walking around, living there, more pleasant. Walking past vacant lots, surface parking, parking decks, or faceless podiums is not a pleasant pedestrian experience (in fact, it can be very hostile). While most of the Post development street front will be residential fronts, as opposed to retail or other use, it still feels better to the pedestrian. It feels safer. Its a much more pleasant experience to walk through - I'd much rather walk a block of brownstones in Chicago, for example, than along a parking deck.

[simms3_redux]

^^^Don't get me wrong, at the end of the day I agree with all of your points about both Perimeter and the Post DT development, but the degree to which Perimeter can become "walkable" is extremely limited (even more so than a Buckhead IMO) and the constant focus on Perimeter and it's success as a submarket due entirely to the level of sprawl in metro Atlanta makes me cringe. I'm all for improvement of sprawl to something slightly less cringe worthy, but the level of investment and focus on Perimeter needed to bring about such positive change can go A LOT further in Midtown. Also most cities' CBDs are the sole focus for significant office development at this point (Dallas turning a corner, tech shifting from Silicon Valley to DT SF, life sciences moving from Rte 128 to central Boston, DT LA turnaround, etc), yet in Atlanta the Central Perimeter still remains the biggest focus.

Re: Post. At the end of the day I agree and welcome it with open arms. However, my standards usually get the best of me and I still need to complain. I do find it hard to compare SLU to this Post development. I get scale. I'm in tune with scale (in fact that is where so many in Atl including some posters on here IMO are out of tune), but SLU is a non-comparable sub market to DT Atlanta. The quality of development between Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, Dallas, and Houston are all at the same basic level and won't change until fundamentals and rents change, which is not in our foreseeable future.

[RocketSurgeon]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Midtown is like 10% built out (that will create a stir, but it really truly is not that built out, which is why there really aren't that many pedestrians), and yet Perimeter is already taking on more office/multifamily construction.

No and no.

Midtown has several underdeveloped lots, but it's not 90% underdeveloped. That's absurd.

Perimeter is not getting more development than Midtown, so I hope that's not what you mean. Since 2011, both have added (or are adding) one hotel and three residential mid-rises. However, Midtown has also added six residential high-rises. I'd say that puts it at least a couple thousand units ahead. The only office additions in Perimeter were to the Cox campus. Remember, too, that Midtown added several office high-rises (not to mention a lot of residential ones) right before the recession, which was years after Perimeter's last office building boom.

Perimeter is definitely growing, but nowhere--and I mean absolutely nowhere--near the rate that Midtown is.

[simms3_redux]

If you carefully looked at Midtown's current land uses, you might agree that it is much closer to 90% undeveloped/under-developed than 90% developed. I would consider parking garages to be inefficient uses of space. Similarly, such things as the FDA on Peachtree, or non-contributing structures that are relics of the 1990s and before. This is why I am personally optimistic about Midtown, given its grid, MARTA, and the fact that it is still so under-developed for its capacity.

In terms of Perimeter, there is an amazing amount of investor interest in it right now. In fact, there are large investors who have yet to "learn" about the Midtown market and are still honed in on Perimeter. I speak as someone who has spoken to people here in SF who are basically only familiar with the Perimeter market. That may sound odd, and it is! Midtown has the strongest average rents, but relies on multi-tenant development, which makes it risky and difficult (not sure "build-to-core" is a reliable strategy in Midtown, though someone from Daniel will have to answer that one). Look at Cox and State Farm. Perimeter has owner-user and fee-based development, which is less risky in metro Atlanta in particular, given the real boom and bust cycles driven by unfamiliar/shaky fundamentals.

If you truly counted up the multifamily units built in Perimeter and Midtown over the past 5 years, as well as what's planned, you'd find them equivalent. Similarly - hotel. Central Perimeter is a huge focus, at least as much as Midtown. Midtown just makes for an easier story, from photography to convenience to publications/journalists, and is obviously much more interesting to all of us on here. The amount of units that has been built along 285 between Vinings and 85 is pretty incredible.

Multifamily developers have taken note of Midtown moreso than any other submarkets, obviously, though we are waiting for the vast majority of these proposals to actually break ground. I'm hoping office will follow, but for now the employment/office growth seems to be outside of the Perimeter. At least residents in Midtown can take transit up, assuming their final destination is close enough or within a shuttle ride of one of the Perimeter stations.

The disparity between suburban/CBD interest is less so in Atlanta than most other markets, if not all other markets (except for my hometown Jacksonville which has almost no CBD interest and lukewarm suburban).

[bryantm3]

i don't know about 90%, but i'd say he's not far off. the only part of midtown that is anywhere near being filled out is around 14th, 12th and peachtree, and it's still got a way to go. if you made a map highlighting all the empty or underutilized lots in midtown, it would probably fill up a majority of the space on the map.

[RocketSurgeon]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

If you truly counted up the multifamily units built in Perimeter and Midtown over the past 5 years, as well as what's planned, you'd find them equivalent.

No. Not even close.

Edit: I'm going to be more constructive (har, har) and actually list what I can think of off the top of my head from 08/09 onward.

Perimeter:

Heights
Lofts
Drexel
Axis
Condos on Ptree-Dunwoody
Citizen Perimeter
Other apartments on Hammond

Midtown:

Viewpoint
1010
1065
77 12th
Atlantic
University House
Centergy North
Skyhouse South
Skyhouse Midtown
Steelworks
Apartments on Bishop
Apartments on Ponce
Yoo on the Park
Post tower
Novare tower on 14th
Tower across from Novare
Other 77 12th tower
Condos attached to Viewpoint
One Museum Place
AMLI Arts Center tower
Midtown station tower
98 14th
Tower south of Viewpoint

I know I'm forgetting some, but I think I made my point.

[simms3_redux]

^^^you didn't make a point because half of that list isn't even UC yet, and another portion is not in Midtown unless you extend the definition, and Perimeter area has a lot of small scale development (<10 units) and even SFR development that Midtown doesn't really have to any significant degree. Plus, who is keeping track of Central Perimeter proposals? Nobody here, at least not to nearly the same degree that Midtown is tracked.

Anyway, I digress. IF all the proposals in Mistown get built in the next ~3-4 years, then we'll talk. And I hope all the proposals do!

[RocketSurgeon]

Dude, you don't get to just throw your hands up and say "Well, no one keeps track of it, so I must be right!" It doesn't work like that. If you know about any developments I forgot, bring the goods.

You're the one who said "proposals," not me, but if you want, I'll reduce my list to things that are already built or being built:

Viewpoint
1010
1065
77 12th
Atlantic
University House
Centergy North
Skyhouse South
Skyhouse Midtown
Steelworks
Apartments on Bishop
Apartments on Ponce
Yoo on the Park

That's still more than twice as many as Perimeter.

I'm not sure what you think isn't Midtown. If you're saying Atlantic Station isn't Midtown, you should know that even the Midtown Alliance says Atlantic Station is Midtown, but if you want to ignore that, then that only eliminates three of those and still leaves twice as many as Perimeter.

Edit: To give you an even better perspective, in order to handicap Midtown down to Perimeter's level in this fight, you'd have to 1) remove all proposals, no matter how serious; 2) exclude an entire corner of the neighborhood; and 3) restrict it to things built since 2013. Even after you do all that, Midtown is evenly matched.

So, basically, if you mean that a limited portion of Midtown has had as many residential buildings constructed in the last two years as the entirety of Perimeter has proposed or built since 2008, then I guess I can't argue with that, but I'm not sure what your point would be

[simms3_redux]

I don't want to get into an "argument" with you, and I have acknowledged that if all of the proposals in Midtown get built, it will be massively newer and infinitely more active than Central Perimeter, but from 2008 to today, in terms of what has been built, they are pretty even.

Midtown
1010 - 443 - 2008
Viewpoint - 385 - 2008
1065 - 52 - 2010
Skyhouse Midtown - 320 - 2012
77 12th - 330 - 2013
Skyhouse South - 320 - 2014
131 Ponce - 280 - 2014

Subtotal 2,130 units built or UC (traditional units)

+

Student housing:

Centergy North - 200 units / 520 beds - 2016
University House - 268 units / 706 beds - 2016

Grand Total - 2,598 units including student housing

If you want to include Atlantic Station and the area around Ponce City Market as part of Midtown, then for Central Perimeter, a corridor such as Roswell, Glenridge, or in other directions has at least as much impact on that market in terms of critical mass/traffic as Atlantic Station and the like has on Midtown. They would still be pretty similar, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if more units overall have been built around Perimeter (there is still single family residential being thrown up on cul de sacs all around there).


Central Perimeter

Heights - 265 - 2008
Drexel - 157 - 2008
Serrano Condos - 150 - 2008
Axis - 312 - 2009
Lofts - 269 - 2009
Peachtree Dunwoody Place - 216 - 2011
Alta Glenridge Springs - 168 - 2011
Citizen - 341 - 2013

Total that I can quickly count without official reports - 1,878 units in >50 complexes

Yes, Midtown > Perimeter from 2012 onward, but 2008 til now they are neck and neck.

I digress, I want Midtown/Downtown to be THE focus of Atlanta, but Atlanta is not yet in the leagues of other cities that truly are seeing huge surges of CBD development. Atlanta's suburban markets, and I'm counting Buckhead in there, as well, are still extremely appealing for the market, potentially moreso than a Midtown. State Farm would not have relocated without Perimeter, and we can list out a ton of other recent corporate relos as well, so Perimeter is *extremely* valuable to Atlanta. Different industries in different submarkets, would love to see HQ growth balanced out with FIRE/legal/tech/life sciences growth, and I would love tech/life sciences to prefer the CBD areas to Gwinnett or North Fulton, giving them better access to Georgia Tech.

Maybe someone with a recent Haddow report can break the multifamily construction of the past few years down better.

[RocketSurgeon]

Well, I really don't want to keep going back and forth, and I'm sure no one wants to read all this either, so I'm going to duck out after this:

1) You're saying if I include Atlantic Station and Old Fourth Ward with Midtown, I have to include Roswell/Glenridge corridors with Perimeter. First, I never said anything about Old Fourth Ward. Second, Roswell Rd. is much father from Perimeter Center than Atlantic Station is from Midtown, and while the Midtown Alliance includes Atlantic Station, the PCID doesn't include Roswell Rd. Third, you just included something on Glenridge yourself, so you broke your own rule.

2) I didn't know Serrano had been built so recently, so I just learned something new. Thanks.

3) You left Yoo on the Park off your list, so add another ~300 units for that.

4) I was ignoring single family homes, but Midtown has added several, such as the townhomes over by Piedmont and the houses going up by Atlantic Station.

5) Your own heavily handicapped lists show Midtown has had 30% more development. That's hardly neck-and-neck.

6) While Perimeter has little or no serious residential projects proposed, Midtown has more than a dozen projects, and many of them are very close to being built. In fact, some work has already been done on the site for 811 Peachtree, but I left that out because it hasn't officially started yet.

7) Atlantic Station is part of Midtown, period. Sorry, but you can't just rip out chunks of the neighborhood because you don't like how the numbers are adding up.

You're just plain wrong, dude. It's okay to admit that once in awhile

[gttx]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i don't know about 90%, but i'd say he's not far off. the only part of midtown that is anywhere near being filled out is around 14th, 12th and peachtree, and it's still got a way to go. if you made a map highlighting all the empty or underutilized lots in midtown, it would probably fill up a majority of the space on the map.

Would be an interesting study to see what portion of allowable development per zoning is actually realized. This is not just about lots being occupied but about the third dimension as well.

I suspect that 90% is a bit of hyperbole, but that there is still significant development capacity in midtown when looked at this way.

An organization recently did this type of study in New York (for different reasons). http://www.mas.org/urbanplanning/accidental-skyline/

[atlantaguy]

^Thanks, gttx. Very much appreciated.

[Libertarian]

Simms, I just learned that someone I know just moved out of SF. He's actually a high-earning private equity guy who has been in the middle of some lucrative deals, so he isn't hurting for money. He had his kids in catholic school, and moved to an area where the kids could go to public school. His situation aside, the reality is it's impossible for middle class families or even individuals to survive in that city due to the cost of living. You don't see much new residential, and that's the reason. The cost of construction is simply too high and the cost of renting or buying is out of reach for all but the upper income demographic. Few kids in the city means a poor mid-term and long-term economic outlook. Just saying. You maybe can live there in an apartment if you earn enough, but should never purchase a residence there due to the likelihood of loss of value at some point. That's the difference between ATL and SFO.

[arjay57]

The city is holding its own. Between Midtown and Buckhead there are thousands of apartments under construction and thousands more in the planning stages.

That doesn't mean the Perimeter isn't also red hot. This is not a zero sum game and there's nothing that says Atlanta can't have multiple urban zones. I realize each subarea has its boosters but in the big picture we are all interdependent.

[scania]

Originally Posted by arjay57

The city is holding its own. Between Midtown and Buckhead there are thousands of apartments under construction and thousands more in the planning stages.

That doesn't mean the Perimeter isn't also red hot. This is not a zero sum game and there's nothing that says Atlanta can't have multiple urban zones. I realize each subarea has its boosters but in the big picture we are all interdependent.

Wow!!! Such a PERFECT statement.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by arjay57

The city is holding its own. Between Midtown and Buckhead there are thousands of apartments under construction and thousands more in the planning stages.

That doesn't mean the Perimeter isn't also red hot. This is not a zero sum game and there's nothing that says Atlanta can't have multiple urban zones. I realize each subarea has its boosters but in the big picture we are all interdependent.

So true. For a long time the perimeter grew at the expense of the intown neighborhoods, which tried (and failed) to beat the perimeter at its own game. Now that intown neighborhoods are hitting their stride, they are offering a much different type of living than the suburbs and even perimeter - and both are succeeding nicely. Seems like an exciting time to live in Atlanta!