New Ottawa Civic Hospital [930 Carling Ave + 520 Preston St] | U/C

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

So what happens with the premiums they charge for semi & private rooms? Will they charge the premium by default? Big source of revenue for the hospital

I wonder the same. They never explained how that will work. I assume those would have to be eliminated.

I was thinking the other day of how hospitals have lost a big source of revenue with patients rarely paying for TV and phones nowadays since we all have cell phones or tablets, and wi-fi is offered for free in the hospital.

[rockland]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I wonder the same. They never explained how that will work. I assume those would have to be eliminated.

I was thinking the other day of how hospitals have lost a big source of revenue with patients rarely paying for TV and phones nowadays since we all have cell phones or tablets, and wi-fi is offered for free in the hospital.

I was recently speaking to a senior MD at Montfort who participated in the planning of the most recent expansion/reorganization. He explained that hospitals still have large shared rooms (4 patients) because they can't charge for private rooms on a ward unless there is a four-person room on that ward. I can't imagine the hospital would be willing to forego that source of revenue unless the rules change/d (or parking fees increase? hehe).

As for TV/phones, a large number of hospitalized patients aren't very tech savvy and will prefer to use what the hospital offers. The wifi usually isn't great either, and Netflix is usually blocked.

(inserting obligatory long-time lurker, new member thingy here)

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by rockland

I was recently speaking to a senior MD at Montfort who participated in the planning of the most recent expansion/reorganization. He explained that hospitals still have large shared rooms (4 patients) because they can't charge for private rooms on a ward unless there is a four-person room on that ward. I can't imagine the hospital would be willing to forego that source of revenue unless the rules change/d (or parking fees increase? hehe).

As for TV/phones, a large number of hospitalized patients aren't very tech savvy and will prefer to use what the hospital offers. The wifi usually isn't great either, and Netflix is usually blocked.

(inserting obligatory long-time lurker, new member thingy here)

Welcome to the forum!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by rockland

I was recently speaking to a senior MD at Montfort who participated in the planning of the most recent expansion/reorganization. He explained that hospitals still have large shared rooms (4 patients) because they can't charge for private rooms on a ward unless there is a four-person room on that ward. I can't imagine the hospital would be willing to forego that source of revenue unless the rules change/d (or parking fees increase? hehe).

As for TV/phones, a large number of hospitalized patients aren't very tech savvy and will prefer to use what the hospital offers. The wifi usually isn't great either, and Netflix is usually blocked.

(inserting obligatory long-time lurker, new member thingy here)

Welcome! And thanks for the response.

Spent a few days at the General last month and the wifi was good, and Netflix available. Can't speak for the other hospitals.

I wouldn't mind paying more for parking as long as hospitals continue to offer cheaper rates for longer stays (3-day, weekly, monthly passes for frequent out-patients/visitors), but I know that's a controversial opinion. I feel like this might be plausible for the new Civic since it's the only hospital that will have good transit access.

[rocketphish]

Parking garage, LRT connection called 'dealbreakers' for Civic hospital plans by Coun. Jeff Leiper

Blair Crawford, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Jul 02, 2021 • 13 hours ago • 3 minute read



The new Civic hospital site trades “real green space for theoretical green space” and doesn’t take full advantage of Ottawa’s new LRT, Kitchissippi ward Coun. Jeff Leiper warns.

Leiper laid out his concerns in a blog post after attending an open house on the new design Tuesday night. City council is expected to vote on the hospital’s master plan at the end of August and Leiper said that, from what he had seen so far, he would vote against it.

Leiper said his biggest concern was the four-storey parking garage the hospital plans to build in Queen Juliana Park, federal green space that lies between the Dow’s Lake and the city’s popular Trillium recreational path along the O-train line.

The hospital says it’s too expensive to build an underground parking garage — about $200 million — so it’s proposing a four-storey structure with park space relocated to the roof. Leiper says that’s not good enough in an area of the city that is already undergoing intensification and losing tree cover.

“Theoretically, it sounds great,” Leiper said in an interview. “But residents of Kitchissippi are used to seeing architectural renderings that look really, really good on paper, but where the reality never matches the dream.

“I’m really concerned that actual real green space is going to be replaced with the top of a parking garage where the trees don’t survive, where it’s not maintained and it’s not easy to get to because it’s four storeys above the ground. I’m concerned we’re trading real, useable public space for theoretical public space.”

Leiper says he’s also concerned that the hospital isn’t doing enough to integrate with the nearby LRT station, which is to be renamed Dow’s Lake Station when the $1.6-billion north-south Trillium Line opens for service in late 2022 or early 2023.

Leiper would like to see a four-season underground plaza connecting LRT travellers to the hospital.

“This new Civic is going to be nice and close to a transit stations, but far enough away that if it’s not convenient I think all the benefits will be lost,” he said. “I think it’s critical to do whatever it takes to integrate the hospital into our new transit system.”

Leiper called the parking garage and the transit connection “deal breakers” for his support.

Leiper says he also worries about increased traffic on Sherwood Avenue, echoing a complaint made by residents during an open house in early June. He’d like to see hospital signs on the Queensway directing drivers to Kirkwood or Bronson avenues, rather than the Parkdale Avenue exit. Carling Avenue gives drivers “a straight shot” to the hospital that is just as fast as leafy, residential Sherwood, he said. Leiper, an avid cyclist, also has concerns about interrupting the bike path through Queen Juliana Park, but thinks those could be solved with the proposed bi-directional bike lanes on Carling Avenue and Preston Street. “But we’ll want to keep an eye on it.”

In an emailed statement sent Friday, a spokesperson for the Ottawa Hospital said it was “grateful for the interest and engagement that our community has shown in this once-in-a-lifetime project” and that it welcomes the public’s comments.

”The site plan is not yet final, and it will continue to be adjusted based on consultations with the public and government.”

The new 2,500-space parking garage will more than double the amount of parking at the existing Civic campus. When the new design was unveiled in May, The Ottawa Hospital CEO Cameron Love said the structure would be largely “out of view” and would help accommodate patients and families who couldn’t use the LRT, especially during off-peak hours, while City of Ottawa planning general manager Stephen Willis said both underground and overhead walkways were being considered to link the hospital to Dow’s Lake Station.

The $2.8-billion hospital is planned to open in 2028.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...un-jeff-leiper

[Badlands]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Leiper says he also worries about increased traffic on Sherwood Avenue, echoing a complaint made by residents during an open house in early June. He’d like to see hospital signs on the Queensway directing drivers to Kirkwood or Bronson avenues, rather than the Parkdale Avenue exit. Carling Avenue gives drivers “a straight shot” to the hospital that is just as fast as leafy, residential Sherwood, he said.

So traffic is okay as long as it is not on leafy, residential streets .

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Badlands

So traffic is okay as long as it is not on leafy, residential streets .

Tell that to the residents of Island Park!

[J.OT13]

I agree with a lot of what Leiper's raising, including keeping traffic off residential streets, concerns over cutting-off the Trillium pathway and that we need to have a complete plan for Dow's Lake Station, which includes an underground connection (and, though not mentioned, full double track north of Dows Lake tunnel).

For the parking garage though, having it underground is just not feasible. The exorbitant cost is just one issue. The Trillium Line is the other. We can't build an underground garage around an active rapid transit line.

If Leiper's worried about the implementation of the new park, guarantees can be given. If we want a surface park (while still maintaining the proposed park on top of the garage), the City could buy the surface parking lot across the street with a community tax levy, which would be far cheaper than an underground garage.

[rocketphish]

I hate to post anything that involves Clive Doucet, but here we go:

Protestors decry the paving of paradise to put up a parking lot (and hospital)

Bruce Deachman, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Jul 04, 2021 • 2 hours ago • 3 minute read

Passing cars honked in support as one of about 100 protestors who gathered at Dow’s Lake at noon on Sunday waved a large Joni Mitchell-inspired placard that read “Don’t Pave Paradise to Put Up a Parking Lot.”

The planned parking lot in question will also has a massive hospital attached, a plan that will remove almost 700 mature trees, which many of Sunday’s demonstrators also oppose.

According to former city councillor Clive Doucet, who organized the protest, the proposal for a new Civic campus of The Ottawa Hospital should be re-examined with the aim of returning it to its original planned site, at Tunney’s Pasture.

Doucet, who now lives in Cape Breton, says he thought that the Dow’s Lake site was pretty much a done deal until he learned of Ottawa integrity commissioner Robert Marleau’s recent report, finding that Barrhaven Coun. and planning committee chair Jan Harder violated the city’s code of conduct by hiring the daughter of longtime development consultant Jack Stirling.

“To my mind,” said Doucet, “that is what we were talking about three years ago, in 2018, when we (ReImagine Ottawa) put together a panel — including a medical physicist, an environmental engineer, a retired Superior Court judge, and an investigative journalist — who all said the decision to move from Tunney’s, made in 72 hours, doesn’t look right.”

The Tunney‘s Pasture site, Doucet added, “makes more sense. There’s better transit, better road access, and it’s totally urban. Whereas this is heritage property, essential green space for the city of Ottawa, since forever. It’s on a fault line and has the worst access. This project will take the most beautiful park and turn it into an enormous complex.

“The decision, which under COVID has largely happened under the radar, needs to be investigated.”

Doucet said, too, that he hoped Sunday’s demonstration would launch the issue to become an issue in the expected upcoming federal election.

“The people of Canada own the Farm, and Tunney’s Pasture. They should say to the City of Ottawa, ‘Sorry, we want to take a look at this.’”

Also in attendance Sunday was Capital Ward Coun. Shawn Menard, who said he was concerned about political interference in the decision to relocate the project, and some aspects of the proposal itself, including a planned four-storey parking garage.

“We need to bury parking,” he said. “And we need LRT on-site, and not next door.

“Ottawa is not a backwater,” he added. “We need to have things on the hub, and we need to spend the money to make this right. We need to do this right.”

One nearby resident who attended Sunday’s rally, David Moyer said he’s worried that building a new hospital at Dow’s Lake may be the beginning of the end for the Experimental Farm.

“This may be something that developers use as a thin edge of the wedge. Once you’ve damaged part of the Farm, it’s easier to damage the rest of it.

“The Experimental Farm is an extremely valuable place, for downtown, for the city, for the country. And the idea that we’d damage it for such foolish reason is ridiculous, when everyone knows that Tunney’s Pasture was the original choice for this and approved by everybody, until developers decided they wanted it.

“I just don’t see that there’s any excuse to damage the Farm.”

Moyer added, however, that he felt that it may be too late to reverse the decision to put the hospital at Dow’s Lake. “But I’d like there to be at least some acknowledgement that not all of us are happy about it.”

City council is expected to vote on the hospital’s master plan at the end of August.

bdeachman@postmedia.com

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...t-and-hospital

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

I hate to post anything that involves Clive Doucet, but here we go:

The dudes been rambling conspiracy theories for the past couple of days/weeks leading up to this. Thinks the whole plan was the work of the mayor to help developers get there hands on tunneys or some outlandish claim as such (Just look at his twitter but be warned it will give you a headache)

This of course ignores everything, including everyone else who dissented and did not want tunneys used, along with the fact that tunneys is 120 acres so there would be still 70 acres to redevelop by the FEDERAL government (not the municpaility) and the actual policitical interference that led to tunneys ever being an option to begin with.

Whats actually bad about this is a sitting councillor backing him and his claims.

Anyways, if these urban councillors get what they want the city hospital will be delayed again, and the city will be on the hook for over $200 million or so for underground parking.

[J.OT13]

So many things wrong with Doucet's point of view, starting with the fact that Tunney's was the top choice for just about a week before the hospital board overturned that decision because Tunney's is not a good site for a regional hospital. Not the City. Not developers. The hospital board wanted nothing to do with Tunney's. And Harder's closeness with developers, which we've known about for years, has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Tunney's might have better transit (main line with higher frequency) than Dow's Lake, but it certainly does not have better road access. The current site is not a nationally significant amazing park space, it's a parking lot, grass, the site of a demolished building and a few trees. Plenty of trees would need to be cut down at Tunney's too.

We can't re-start the entire process. We're 6 years into it. Millions have been spent. This is a much needed reginal trauma centre, not a private development.

Dow's Lake was a compromise. The original site was supposed to be across the street from the current Civic. People weren't happy with losing actual research land, so we found a patch of grass where a mid-century building was torn down. Compromise. When no one's happy, that's when you know you found a good middle ground.

[J.OT13]

Maybe they should have proposed surface parking all around the hospital and "come up" with the parking garage after people protested. If you start with the best viable solution, that is a parking garage with a roof-top park, then you have nowhere to go.

There are some legitimate concerns with the traffic, transit and site plan that can be mitigated, but placing parking underground and/or changing the location yet again should not be considered in any way.

[Multi-modal]

I agree almost entirely with Leiper, who tends to be the most reasonable and well thought out of the inner city councilors. The Civic Hospital community association on the other hand makes a couple arguments that I have issue with. They try to argue that...

1. The hospital is too car oriented and will generate too much traffic
2. The hospital doesn't have enough parking and needs to provide a larger, underground parking garage.

These two complaints are at-odds with each other. If the Hospital adds more parking then it will inevitably generate more traffic and be more car oriented. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too, as they say.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I agree almost entirely with Leiper, who tends to be the most reasonable and well thought out of the inner city councilors. The Civic Hospital community association on the other hand makes a couple arguments that I have issue with. They try to argue that...

1. The hospital is too car oriented and will generate too much traffic
2. The hospital doesn't have enough parking and needs to provide a larger, underground parking garage.

These two complaints are at-odds with each other. If the Hospital adds more parking then it will inevitably generate more traffic and be more car oriented. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too, as they say.

Inconsistent but weirdly not wrong. The first point says the modal estimate is wrong and it generate more traffic. There is no real solution to this. Staff and patients are not going to switch to transit even if it had direct station access an frankly even if it was in the much transit friendlier Tunneys location. There will likely be a shortage of parking and it will bleed into the neighbourhood.

Even as someone who preferred Tunney’s, though not strongly, I Agree the ship has sailed and underground parking is an ask too far. Some tweaks but largely the plan is set.

[acottawa]

It’s a hospital in North America. It has to be car dependent. Nobody is going to pick their mother up from hip surgery on the bus.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It’s a hospital in North America. It has to be car dependent. Nobody is going to pick their mother up from hip surgery on the bus.

And yet, it is very reasonable to go the hospital by bus to get an MRI, or a heart test, or various other non-emergency and non-surgery procedures done by the hospital every day. I have done all the above by bus and by bike. Sure car facilities are necessary for some use-cases, but not all use-cases.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Staff and patients are not going to switch to transit even if it had direct station access an frankly even if it was in the much transit friendlier Tunneys location. There will likely be a shortage of parking and it will bleed into the neighbourhood.

Staff and patients are reasonable actors just like everyone else and will decide what transportation mode to take based on rationale factors - typically cost and travel time. If the Hospital is more convenient and cheaper to access by bike or by transit than by car, then people will choose sustainable modes as long as they are physically able to do so.

Yes parking supply and cost do factor into parking spillover, but heavy enforcement is the correct tool for this problem. If we increase parking supply and reducing parking costs then we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

And yet, it is very reasonable to go the hospital by bus to get an MRI, or a heart test, or various other non-emergency and non-surgery procedures done by the hospital every day. I have done all the above by bus and by bike. Sure car facilities are necessary for some use-cases, but not all use-cases.

Of course, some people will want to take transit, but a huge amount of parking is still needed for those who won’t.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Staff and patients are reasonable actors just like everyone else and will decide what transportation mode to take based on rationale factors - typically cost and travel time. If the Hospital is more convenient and cheaper to access by bike or by transit than by car, then people will choose sustainable modes as long as they are physically able to do so.

Yes parking supply and cost do factor into parking spillover, but heavy enforcement is the correct tool for this problem. If we increase parking supply and reducing parking costs then we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

We have reduced the cost of parking because the demand was very inelastic but the annoyance at the cost was very high. Many infrequent patients and visitors would pay $50 a day rather than take other transportation. The once a year inconvenience irritates them though. Meanwhile staff work irregular hours and have high incomes. They also often work at both campuses. I know doctors who live less than two km away and mostly drive. Sure $30 a day would discourage that but then your nurses will quit.

[J.OT13]

Complaint about the hospital site plan are starting to bother me. It seems to be shifting away from the parking garage and mobility to yet another debate on location. There was a fight when the research land across the current Civic was chosen, the NCC proceeded to selecting Tunney's when the Liberals came into power, the hospital rejected Tunney's and Dow's Lake was the compromise. Move on.

What's most bothersome is that detractors keep saying that 50 acres (!) of green space will be lost. Imagine if that was in Central Park (!) or Stanley Park (!)

First off, about half that 50 acres is surface parking, the site of a demolished Federal building and it's abandoned cafeteria. Get your facts straight. Furthermore, the rest is mostly just grass. Nothing exciting. It is not a world class public park.

We should focus on the real issues that can reasonably be resolved like Dow's Lake station's connection, the Trillium Pathway and traffic through residential streets. Underground garages, or worse yet moving the location again, should be off the table.