Public Realm in Canadian Cities - Developments

[Nite]

Beside Wellington St street above is the Well, while not strictly public it is public realm adjacent







https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...s?srnd=citylab

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The idea is probably cafe patios.

That could turn out fairly well during certain times of year.

[WhipperSnapper]

Patio fees are annual from a city revenue standpoint and maintenance of hardscaping is low. I agree. It's an excessive amount of hardscaping.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Toronto's parks department is famously awful for maintenance, etc. They are run on a shoe-string budget as well which doesn't help..

Yeah, Toronto's park's maintenance is particularly terrible, but so is the City's approach to graphic design in general. Everything from the new street signs and wayfinding to light standards to overall branding is drab & utilitarian at best, or clumsy & dated-looking at worst: (the TTC is the exception to this)

Originally Posted by isaidso

Like the cat park, they went to considerable time and expense to build a gorgeous public realm only to have it ruined by horrendous overhead electrical. This is so typical of Toronto. The kicker is this particular project actually installed beautiful heritage lamp posts running down both sides of the pathway with buried electrical.

If we're to ever have a top notch public realm, what passes as acceptable at Toronto Hydro needs to change. When it comes to design they have no sense whatsoever. It needs an overhaul and co-ordinated with a City Plan for our public realm. If we don't, crap like this will continue to happen. Why is Toronto so terrible at this very fixable thing?

Don't worry, the City will come to bury those power lines in a year or two and just patch up those nice new brick pavers with a coat of asphalt like this:

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I actually didn't notice the power lines. What stood out to me is the excess of hard paved surfaces. Wellington isn't a major thoroughfare like King, Spadina, etc. so I can't see the need for that much sidewalk space. Perhaps it will look better once the trees are bigger. Well assuming that they can get much bigger in that setting.

I believe the plan is for a lot of that space to be used by restaurant patios.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Don't worry, the City will come to bury those power lines in a year or two and just patch up those nice new brick pavers with a coat of asphalt like this:

I've actually found the City (well, utilities really) is getting a lot better at this, though this is relative and could be at the prodding of BIAs in certain areas. Seen a lot more instances of interlock being stacked up besides utility repairs and then replaced afterwards. Similarly parks maintenance is slowwwwwlllly improving compared to a couple decades ago, though again it seems targeted towards certain areas and a lot of things suffered badly under the previous two mayors. From what I've heard this is one of the "small wins" the current administration is hoping to achieve. Cautiously optimistic based on what I've seen so far - one of the regulars at a local bar is management of maintenance for High Park and he's reported a lot more resources put in that direction.


RE: hardscaping - the idea is that it will be taken up by patios which could probably extend a good percentage of the year (there are still some operational patios as of last weekend). I've cycled by a number of times and with the scale of the buildings it doesn't seem oppressive - will also look better when the trees come in.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Yeah, Toronto's park's maintenance is particularly terrible, but so is the City's approach to graphic design in general. Everything from the new street signs and wayfinding to light standards to overall branding is drab & utilitarian at best, or clumsy & dated-looking at worst: (the TTC is the exception to this)

I was fond of Toronto's old street signs. (Ottawa also had the same style but has since abandoned them as well.) https://www.blogto.com/city/2014/04/..._up_for_grabs/

But not the rectangular backlit ones.

[WhipperSnapper]

IIRC, the park signs were created in the 1990s hence their ugliness. I really don't know why we needed these standardized park signs with street addresses.

I'm torn with the street signs. Who doesn't like the old ones? However, the new ones are easier to see. With so many new Torontonians safety is a worthwhile tradeoff. It's easy to miss an important sign in Montreal when you are not used to them.

The ugly street sign stem from Toronto having street names than a numbering system. The city is an outlier in that regards. It would be the best to introduce a numbering system and keep the street names as historical reference. Dundas won't be the only street renamed given the times and the prioritization of social justice education. We already cancelled the first prime minster of Canada. Who from 100 plus years ago is going to live up to the modern scrutiny of social justice today?

[Innsertnamehere]

At least Toronto's street signs are better than Hamiltons, which are basically unreadable on arterial roads:

What intersection is this? good luck figuring it out!



Toronto's arterial road signage is at least large and clearly legible - they have the little poorly designed street sign on the corner and the large overhead sign. For some reason Hamilton decided it's too good for overhead signs.. There are literally 0 of them in the entire city. Makes navigating crazy frustrating.

[niwell]

Ottawa also suffers from terrible signage. They technically have overhead signs but they are so small even on major arterials that it's very hard spot in advance if one is unfamiliar with the area.

I love Toronto's old street signs but get why they had to be replaced. Aside from visibility issues the manufacturing is something that's probably much more expensive these days. They did it all in-house IIRC.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

IIRC, the park signs were created in the 1990s hence their ugliness. I really don't know why we needed these standardized park signs with street addresses.

I'm torn with the street signs. Who doesn't like the old ones? However, the new ones are easier to see. With so many new Torontonians safety is a worthwhile tradeoff. It's easy to miss an important sign in Montreal when you are not used to them.

I don't find Montreal street signs any better or prettier.

Though personally I don't find them too hard to see because streets in much of Montreal tend to be narrower than in Toronto. So you're closer to the signs.

It seems like Montreal actively resists the big North American-style street signs that hang over the street at major intersections.

This is a pretty rare example of where they've used one.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5018...8192?entry=ttu

[Acajack]

I like Quebec City's street signs where they actually describe what or who it's named for. (This is a cue from France where they do this.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@46.8101...8192?entry=ttu

[WhipperSnapper]

I doubt these signs were cheap to produce at any point during their manufacturing cycle. The cost is more a factor of lifespan. I wonder if signs installed in the 1940s had a much longer lifespan than signs installed in the 1990s or this shift to stamped signs was simply penny pinching.

Today all you need is a printer to produce a single custom piece with all the dimensions of the originals with the easier to read script and larger format. A single piece would help on the durability from environmental conditions.

[niwell]

For a bit Toronto tried a design that mimicked the old one on a single stamped piece and met the current standards for visibility. The result was.... not great: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Fj5w8AxyxajDCeMc9

I don't actually hate the current design. It could be better but it's not downright ugly compared to a lot of North American cities outside historic / touristy areas. Which is actually very Toronto...

[WhipperSnapper]

Is that not the standard used today?

[niwell]

This is the current design standard - main streets have space for a BIA identifier at top too: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Snq6zHkTWquTeDks8

[WhipperSnapper]

Ah. Thanks

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

For some reason Hamilton decided it's too good for overhead signs.. There are literally 0 of them in the entire city. Makes navigating crazy frustrating.

Wouldn't go that far, there are plenty in Hamilton... just concentrated in the lower city. Makes sense considering history but certainly no excuse.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

Wouldn't go that far, there are plenty in Hamilton... just concentrated in the lower city. Makes sense considering history but certainly no excuse.

And they're inconsistent. Just using Queenston Rd. and Main/King as examples, they're not always placed for all directions of oncoming traffic, and they range in colour: standard green like at Main and Kenilworth Ave., red at Main and Ottawa St. (probably denoting its significance as the historical fabric retail district, and current BIA), and black with a gold border downtown. The ones at Queenston and Centennial have the small font but kindly give you direction, at least along one general compass axis. On parts of Barton, a different shape is used. Many traffic lights don't have them at all, even where arterials cross. At many arterial intersections in suburban Hamilton there are signs mounted at medians, but they're the smaller ones.

If I'm a visitor or new to the city, just when I think I know what to look for, there's a change in signage style or a lack of easily visible signs at all. For those of us who know the street network it's not a big deal. But everyone else needs to have sharp eyes, use a navigation app, or memorize a map.

Maybe there's some office in Public Works where there's a slew of street-sign "to-dos" listed on paper or in emails, or on a huge cork-board map with pins. And it's just prioritized after things like potholes and caring for median flowerbeds.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Toronto has some great looking new parks, but then has to go and ruin them with signage that looks like it's been borrowed from a 1990s suburban middle school.

I was thinking about this and trying to picture park signage in other municipalities but drawing a blank. I do appreciate having the info about a park available but agreed that a redesign is in order. It's weird considering the City's development application signs are very good from my perspective.

I think it would also be worth having a tiered level of signage - something of this size is warranted at large parks but for tiny parkettes probably not. Maybe just a small sign with the park name and address (which I know is considered important by various departments).