Robson Square Renovations

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by connect2source

Option 1 Wet :

-ties in the best with the existing Robson Sq. design
-pays most respect to Arthur Erickson's legacy

I think all the options are disappointing and need to go back to the drawing board. But I think "Wet" is the most disappointing option, precisely because it does tie into the rest of Robson Square. With a forest of trees taking-up a substantial portion of the western half of the square, it is eerily similar to what Vancouver already has more than enough of: just another park and overgrown green space. In the survey, this is precisely what people said they didn't want. What people said they wanted most (and what Vancouver most needs, especially fronting this classical building in the heart of the city) is a true urban civic square. Taking-up valuable square space with just another forest of trees is inconsistent with Vancouver's needs and the goal of this redesign.

[NewWester]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

I think "Wet" is one of the most disappointing options, precisely because it does tie into the rest of Robson Square. With a forest of trees taking-up a substantial portion of the western half of the square, it is eerily similar to what Vancouver already has more than enough of: just another park and overgrown green space. In the survey, this is precisely what people said they didn't want. What people said they wanted most (and what Vancouver most needs, especially fronting this classical building in the heart of the city) is a true urban civic square. Taking-up valuable square space with just another forest of trees is inconsistent with Vancouver's needs and the goal of this redesign.

Are we looking at the same proposal? Or do we have radically different definitions of "forest" and "overgrown"?

[officedweller]

Not really keen on any of them - but it's a plaza (what can you expect?).
At least it hasn't devolved into a patchwork of mini-parks like Nathan Phillips Square in Toornto.

I also like the exitsing 1958 BC Centennial fountain - when it's working, the water gushes with "might" and really reflects the waves crashing on rocks or river rapids.

My comments:

Regardless of whichever is chosen - they had better not remove the magnificent magnolia tree at the NW corner (Hornby & Georgia). When that tree flowers in spring, it's amazing.

Active Edge - this is the worst one.
It constrains the sidewalk on West Georgia too much. i.e. there's a food truck there and there's always a big crowd around it forcing passersby to detour.
The pools by the Art Gallery are nice though and it looks like it has a restaurant pavilion (maybe the food truck would be history?)

Plalo Ring - gimmicky
This isn't that bad, but what is it other than a plain jane plaza with trees at the sides and a gimmicky ring right over top?
The ring shifts the burden of lighting maintenance onto the City rather than event organizers (think of any other "active" sculpture in the city that has fallen into disrepair).
Also, the ring places physical contraints on the use of the plaza - the guy wires and ring itself will place height restrictions on plaza use. Some of the stages erected for concerts are probably taller than that ring.

Wet - best of the 3, if you have to choose one, but like the ring proposal, it's a plaza with trees on the sides.
Looks like it has a restaurant pavilion to liven things up.
But when, exactly will the "wet" plaza actually be wet?
There are so many events using the plaza during summer that the wet feature will likely be dry most of the time. And like others have said, what's the use making it wet in fall and winter when it'll be naturally wet anyways?

[rsxstock]

i wish they would combine art and science to create something like a shaded area with solar panels or a small wind turbine

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by rsxstock

i wish they would combine art and science to create something like a shaded area with solar panels or a small wind turbine

And maybe throw in a recycling plant, some compost bins and a sustainable organic vegetable garden too?

[TwoFace]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

And maybe throw in a recycling plant, some compost bins and a sustainable organic vegetable garden too?

I still think that they should keep it as simple as possible, but add a permanent stage on the west or east side for spontaneous entertainment.
Also, aren't they going to dig up the whole plaza area first to re-enforce the bunkers below?, so were looking at 5+ years maybe.

[wrenegade]

WET is by far the best proposal. It offers the most flexibility for events, gatherings, and even temporary art installations, and takes into consideration what the plaza looks like 6 months of the year (the only sketch to include rain and/or leafless trees).

I too feel that the Plalo Ring proposal is gimmicky and would become dated quickly. It also looks like it might prevent the erection of the Christmas Tree on the plaza (one of my favourite parts about Christmas in Vancouver). The 2nd proposal is so boring I've already forgotten the name. Essentially it's just a flat plaza with a new (ugly) fountain? Blah. It would have been nice to see one of the proposals actually utilized main entrance. Perhaps whatever tenant that takes over after the Art Gallery is gone (if or when that happens) will be able to change that.

[theKB]

Originally Posted by logan5

I wouldn't mind seeing 2 or 3 nice restaurants/pubs built into the ground floor of the courthouse building. That would bring some activity to the new plaza.

so by that you mean cactus club and donnely?

This would actually be a great addition to that area, and would bring some life down there. Kind of would remind me of the way Rockefeller Center is set up with the skating rink and a few restaurants and then the restaurant takes over the rink in the summer for a massive outdoor patio.

patinagroup.com

(although I think this would be too advanced for Vancouver)

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by wrenegade

WET is by far the best proposal. It offers the most flexibility for events, gatherings, and even temporary art installations...

Even though there are four rows of large trees that consume 1/3rd of the actual square? See the overhead perspective on page 1: http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/VAG-No...13-Sept-30.pdf

After eyeballing the overheads of each proposal, it appears "Wet" actually leaves the least amount of open, unobstructed square space.

If "Wet" deleted three of the four rows of trees that intrude onto the square proper, then it would be the most flexible.

[NewWester]

You might have a point that fewer trees increases flexibility, but I disagree that Wet leaves all that much less usable space as seen from the overhead landscape architecture drawings. The ring has rows of trees on either side of the plaza and which accounts for about 1/3 of the usable area. And the fountain option has about 1/3 of the area taken up by the fountain (and is by far the dullest option). Also, given that the trees are sitting over the plaza and can be walked/sat among, I question how much impact they will have on the final use of the plaza.

[huenthar]

I think I would take a variation of the 'wet' option with:

-no stupid treed area blocking the side, we've got more than enough of that. Have the plaza area extend right up to the street and around the courthouse to maximize the usable space

-given we get so much rain anyways, the 'water feature' could be uniquely designed to make use of natural rainwater (as well as other water) so that the feature only really comes alive in the rain. I don't want the plaza itself to be wet though, the glass covered drainage idea or something along those lines that leaves the surface usable would be best. (I think a "rain fountain" would be a really cool idea, although would be much better placed on a different site; this location should be open space)

-and of course, wait on decisions re. future tenant, reopening the main entrance, concert hall etc.

[trofirhen]

Returning to the VAG Georgia St Plaza renders, upon a closer look, it seems that the "Wet" option is like a big, concrete, shallow puddle. I though it was maybe 80cm deeper.

This option, while pleasant, makes me think of a suburban playground, kids wading in the pools as at school or a shopping centre, or maybe campus plaza with trees added. I'm less of an enthusiast than if it were more classical (that building's design is 18th century, and merits being reflected as such.

Plalo Ring: my last choice.

Active Edge: Yes that granite fountain, as designed, is austere, and rather "walls off" the plaza from the Georgia side.
I think that perhaps some real "tweaks" in that one - different fountain shape - maybe a pool added - who knows at this point?
But IMO it is the most chic, does go well with Nordstroms, but seems too austere at plaza level. Make it more paza-accessible.
Tweak it to pay more homage to the building, stairs, columns and lions (don't as me how: somebody can try if they're interested), it would be the smartest, crispest, and most elegant. just my

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

I think all the options are disappointing and need to go back to the drawing board. But I think "Wet" is the most disappointing option, precisely because it does tie into the rest of Robson Square. With a forest of trees taking-up a substantial portion of the western half of the square, it is eerily similar to what Vancouver already has more than enough of: just another park and overgrown green space. In the survey, this is precisely what people said they didn't want. What people said they wanted most (and what Vancouver most needs, especially fronting this classical building in the heart of the city) is a true urban civic square. Taking-up valuable square space with just another forest of trees is inconsistent with Vancouver's needs and the goal of this redesign.

Total agreement

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Total agreement

Dude, are you for real? Know your own mind and have conviction.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Dude, are you for real? I don't accept your "total agreement."

Excuse me. This "total agreement" comes after a long second look at what is being offered. 1) I don't like the "woodsy" aspect; we already have enough. 2)"Wet" turns out to be a shallow concrete puddle with people sloshing around in it, rather like in a park or schoolyard. 3) "Wet" pays no hommage to the classical design of the building, nor does it provide a true "central downtown" civic square.

If I seem to have skipped all over the place, I apologize. It's just that taking a closer, harder, second look at the renderings made me do a lot of reconsidering. I realize that this seems very inconsistent and thus seems implausible, but that's where I'm coming from right now.

And yes, I think all the options are disappointing. None of them really speaks to me. Excuse my vascillating like this. It was a hard choice choosing between the lesser of three evils.
Please excuse me. Time to go back to the drawing board, I think.

[Hourglass]

Trof, you're flip-flopping here more than a politician!

I think all three options are far better than what's there at present. Further, all options offer something of interest and provide a needed public space. What would you suggest as an alternative?

[s211]

I think what needs to be kept in mind is that there is almost zero funds being put up for this, which is holding back the square from being properly re-envisioned. Vancouver's getting another band-aid for a gaping wound.

[jlousa]

I predict that in typical fashion we will end up with a compromise of these designs and get a combination of all three in which the sum of the parts doesn't add up.

The wet proposal has the most support behind it by those involved, although the city itself seems to be pushing the ring proposal. Will be interesting to see how it plays out, going by previous experiences I think the open houses will "encourage" the ring design.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by jlousa

The wet proposal has the most support behind it by those involved, although the city itself seems to be pushing the ring proposal.

That's no surprise, considering the leader of the design team is Nick Milkovich, who was on the original design team for Robson Square and the Provincial Law Courts while working for Arthur Erickson. With its numerous trees, the "Wet" proposal is the most similar to Robson Square. Like Robson Square, "Wet" verges on being more park than true urban plaza.

And that's the problem.

I personally love the quiet, serene, contemplative green spaces of Robson Square. They offer a beautiful, hidden, virtually private respite from the noise and hustle of city life. But Vancouver has an abundance of that kind of space. What it doesn't have, however, is a true civic square in the heart of downtown, where public life is embraced, not escaped from. Indeed, Vancouverites who answered the city's survey said (to their credit) that they didn't want the north square to be another park or green space but rather a true "urban plaza."

See page three: http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/VAG-No...2013-Oct-1.pdf

I agree with them. This is the one place where Vancouver should have a proper urban square, where public experience is shared, not avoided. Of course, "Wet" is hardly as bad as all that. But it is the most park like and thus the most inconsistent with what Vancouver needs (and what Vancouverites want) at this location.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Trof, you're flip-flopping here more than a politician!

I think all three options are far better than what's there at present. Further, all options offer something of interest and provide a needed public space. What would you suggest as an alternative?

I admit that it is true; I'm flip-flopping like a fish in a frying pan, and I apologize for that. I find myself confued and disappointed.

Part of the reasonis that I didn't take a long, hard, close enough look at the renders.OK.
For me, the Plalo Ring is a non-starter.
The Wet option (upon second, closer look) is a big wading puddle with a park that feels like a a schoolground or or such, or as mentioned, more of that woodsy-foresty aspect already behind Robson Square.
Pleasant enough but uninspiring and unworthy of the building itself, which is unique to Vancouver, and IMO should be offset with something to show up its classical features.
*
Nothing here really does it for me, but I would take the "Activated Edge, and redesign that long, walling-off fountain, so that access is available from Georgia Street (several smaller fountains? I do not have an answer at this point)

That option also leads nicely to the front steps of the VAG, and would be good if they ever decide to re-open the main entrance. Also, it offers a lot of open space, not only for concerts and gatherings, but just for people to sit in a real downtown, city-centre square.

I would replace a lot of the deciduous trees (bare in winter)with evergreens (though fewer of them) like several scotch pines, laurel, cypress, rhododendrons.....

So in the end, I'd have a large open plaza, with some water feature, but not overpowering, the lions and staircases of the VAG lit up in white, a plaza that invites people to sit or stroll, and a water feature (it could even include some sort of pool, but I have nothing specific in mind) that lends a definition to the square, but does not wall it off, as the present design does.

Please excuse me for this. I had trouble interpreting the renders, but frankly, none of the ideas presented really does it for me, anyway.