Arbutus: Greenway & Future Streetcar | Proposed

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think it's good that CP gets a share of any upside revenue - it'll keep the City honest and provide CP with a remedy if the City flip flops and sells any of the land. There are bound to be little bits and corner that could be sold off - so to try to account for that now in the purchase price would be unrealistic.

As others have expressed - my concern would be that if they develop it as a bike and pathway system, that'll prevent future reconfiguration as a surface LRT (i.e. feeder line to Broadway Skytrain or even across Granville Bridge to downtown) due to public outcry.
If a future line has to be underground - that'll be a significant barrier to getting the project off the ground (especially as a smaller scale streetcar).

Agreed. If the design makes it seems like a garden or path will have to be removed for rapid transit it makes it much harder for the public to accept it. The path and landscaping will need to be designed in a way that there is a clear corridor that is still reserved for rapid transit. I'm not sure, though, exactly how one would do this.

[Plafuldog]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Agreed. If the design makes it seems like a garden or path will have to be removed for rapid transit it makes it much harder for the public to accept it. The path and landscaping will need to be designed in a way that there is a clear corridor that is still reserved for rapid transit. I'm not sure, though, exactly how one would do this.

Agreed. In Victoria, a portion of the Galloping Goose trail was originally intended to be part of a future LRT line. The trail's been in place for over 20 years now with no LRT in future. They'll have a huge battle on their hands to take away part of that corridor when the time comes

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Plafuldog

Agreed. In Victoria, a portion of the Galloping Goose trail was originally intended to be part of a future LRT line. The trail's been in place for over 20 years now with no LRT in future. They'll have a huge battle on their hands to take away part of that corridor when the time comes

Well to be fair, there is still another rail line connecting the western communities, but the E&N is in bad shape. If LRT ever comes to Victoria, it's going to have to go down one or both sets or old railway right of ways. Elevating it wouldn't do much because traffic flows almost entirely parallel to them. So for the few places the rails do cross they could elevate the road instead, or move the road crossing back so the cars go under it.

With Vancouver, the Arbutus line crosses every road on the west part of the city outside of downtown, but has the fortunate circumstances that it was originally double-tracked (AFAIK,) so if they want to make it a trail right now and later turn it into a LRT, there's no properties to buy back except where a station would go. If they start selling it off, they will only ever be able to stick the Skytrain down the remaining space, or some other elevated/subway.

[MalcolmTucker]

15 m is wide enough for four tracks. The original land grants were that wide, at least on the prairies.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Agreed. If the design makes it seems like a garden or path will have to be removed for rapid transit it makes it much harder for the public to accept it. The path and landscaping will need to be designed in a way that there is a clear corridor that is still reserved for rapid transit. I'm not sure, though, exactly how one would do this.

Seriously though. How many times has a vocal minority actually derailed serious plans for the greater good?

It happened like once, when Vancouver managed to stop freeway construction into downtown. Since then it is like the boogeyman.

Even with protests and people getting arrested we still scalped Eagleridge bluffs. They still built the PMB, GEB and got rid of the Albion ferry. The Canada line happened (cut and cover in Vancouver and elevated in Richmond). Evergreen isn't LRT. The Olympics happened. The roof of BC Place was replaced. They moved the downtown Seaplane terminal. The Broadway line is only going to Arbutus because of money, not NIMBYs. They are moving Saint Pauls. SFPR ripped through ALR land. Pipelines are being built. Site C.

Like really, what was about to happen that protesters actually stopped dead cold?

If the people in power decide that upgrading a bike path to include light rail is for the public benefit, it will happen. There is so much money involved in making it happen, and none in keeping a bike lane. Money always wins.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Seriously though. How many times has a vocal minority actually derailed serious plans for the greater good?

Even with protests and people getting arrested we still scalped Eagleridge bluffs. They still built the PMB, GEB and got rid of the Albion ferry. The Canada line happened (cut and cover in Vancouver and elevated in Richmond). Evergreen isn't LRT. The Olympics happened. The roof of BC Place was replaced. They moved the downtown Seaplane terminal. The Broadway line is only going to Arbutus because of money, not NIMBYs. They are moving Saint Pauls. SFPR ripped through ALR land. Pipelines are being built. Site C.

If I am not mistaken, every single example you referred to is one which the City of Vancouver was not exclusively or even partly in control of. It seems the City of Vancouver is precisely where a vocal minority can be very successful in influencing city policy (unless its something the council members are true believers in).

[dleung]

The renderings show NEW tracks, for the possible future light rail lines. Light rail won't be able to use the current tracks, and it's better to optimize the location of those tracks anyway to make room for redevelopment. This isn't some pink leftist plan to preserve illegal community gardens. The city is hoping for at least $150 million+ in development-related revenue.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...+Article+Links

[WarrenC12]

Canada Line was a huge fight, but on multiple levels, mostly regionally with Translink.

I think the point is moot though, the need for any kind of rail transit along Arbutus is decades off. There are easily tens of Billions of transportation projects ahead of it on the list.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Plafuldog

Agreed. In Victoria, a portion of the Galloping Goose trail was originally intended to be part of a future LRT line. The trail's been in place for over 20 years now with no LRT in future. They'll have a huge battle on their hands to take away part of that corridor when the time comes

In theory, the rails-to-trails movement provided a "safety" measure for ripping out the rails. The multipurpose trails would always include provisions for future rail transportation. Yet in the entire U.S., not one trail has been converted back to rail. Why? It's far too costly and there is usually strong opposition to re-purposing such trails which are deemed to be tourist attractions by locals.

We were fortunate that the old BCER Central Park Line was being used for freight transport between the 60's and 80's; else wise, those rail lines would have been ripped out and the ROW would have been lost.

[urbancanadian]

I'm impressed with the deal and I think it's a solid compromise which benefits both sides. CP will be getting a healthy chunk of money and the City is able to secure a transportation corridor for an amount that will be recouped through future land sales.

I think the City was earnest from the start that it will remain as a transportation corridor. But there were always chunks of surplus land that were going to be sold off after rapid transit was built (or at least after there was a plan for it). We just don't know which pieces of land will be sold in the end, so it's fair to include a clause guaranteeing 50% to each side.

For example, the line might not extend farther north than Broadway where it will connect with the Millenium Line, so a bunch of land might be available there in the future. Also, the LRT might connect with Marine Drive Station on the Canada Line via 70th Avenue, so the entire ROW south of 70th might also be available in the future. There's also the possibility of air rights being sold along certain stretches in Kerrisdale. And then of course there are some odd pieces of land that we already know now won't be needed.

[Large Cat]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

I'm impressed with the deal and I think it's a solid compromise which benefits both sides. CP will be getting a healthy chunk of money and the City is able to secure a transportation corridor for an amount that will be recouped through future land sales.

I think the City was earnest from the start that it will remain as a transportation corridor. But there were always chunks of surplus land that were going to be sold off after rapid transit was built (or at least after there was a plan for it). We just don't know which pieces of land will be sold in the end, so it's fair to include a clause guaranteeing 50% to each side.

For example, the line might not extend farther north than Broadway where it will connect with the Millenium Line, so a bunch of land might be available there in the future. Also, the LRT might connect with Marine Drive Station on the Canada Line via 70th Avenue, so the entire ROW south of 70th might also be available in the future. There's also the possibility of air rights being sold along certain stretches in Kerrisdale. And then of course there are some odd pieces of land that we already know now won't be needed.

Lol, it would be funny if the city allowed developers to make a number of massive "gate" developments over top of the ROW, in the style of Central by Main Street Station. This would still preserve the ROW, as long as the developers could find a way to buy a couple SFH allotments on either side!

On the topic of the southern part of the ROW in Marpole, does anyone have exact info on where the CP-owned ROW that was just sold ends? Is it at Marine and Hudson? Is it at the trestle to Richmond? Does it continue east along the Kent ROW, or is that owned by another company? If it does continue east, where is the terminus of the land that was sold? I'd value this information because Marpole can really use some better walking/cycling connectivity, and the area below 70th is worst. One thing I'm glad I'm sure about though is that the city won't try to use 70th to connect future LRT with Marine Dr Station--that would actually be worse than surface LRT on King George, I just can't imagine them thinking of doing it that way.

[urbancanadian]

An easy way to ensure less pushback from residents in the future is to put up some simple signage that says what's to come in the future. It could look like this:

ARBUTUS CORRIDOR GREENWAY
Future site of the Arbutus Rapid Transit Line.

I know it seems overly simplistic, but if you communicate the plan properly, people will understand. People were irate because they had assumed the railway was going to stay as is indefinitely. They were wrong and the City (over multiple councils) allowed the community gardens to be built without properly informing the public that they were technically illegal.

Anyway, the community garden at 2nd & Wylie is going to be closing pretty soon but I haven't heard any public outcry, partly because the place is plastered with signs stating "temporary community garden".

[urbancanadian]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

On the topic of the southern part of the ROW in Marpole, does anyone have exact info on where the CP-owned ROW that was just sold ends? Is it at Marine and Hudson? Is it at the trestle to Richmond? Does it continue east along the Kent ROW, or is that owned by another company? If it does continue east, where is the terminus of the land that was sold? I'd value this information because Marpole can really use some better walking/cycling connectivity, and the area below 70th is worst. One thing I'm glad I'm sure about though is that the city won't try to use 70th to connect future LRT with Marine Dr Station--that would actually be worse than surface LRT on King George, I just can't imagine them thinking of doing it that way.

I think it goes up to the junction east of Hudson and west of Oak, and then continues along the short spur up to the Fraser River.

As for 70th Avenue... well, you never know haha. My "plan" would see the LRT dive underground just before turning east at 70th, with a short cut-and-cover stretch up to just east of SW Marine Drive. You would have two underground stations at 70th & Granville, and 70th & Oak. It would be the most expensive section of the line, but it would run through a dense part of the city with a ton of likely transit riders - and it would also enable a connection with the Canada Line.

[aberdeen5698]

I'm really not getting why where is so much angst about a greenway/bike path vs. transit. First of all, if we get to the point of needing the corridor for transit it won't be for surface LRT - it will be for some form of grade separated transit. The Expo and Millenium lines have already shown that greenways and bike paths coexist very, very nicely with elevated transit. And (given the voters in the neighborhood) the more likely cut and cover scenario would leave the virtually all the surface area intact once construction is completed.

There is no conflict between greenway and transit, only a synergy.

[Large Cat]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

I think it goes up to the junction east of Hudson and west of Oak, and then continues along the short spur up to the Fraser River.

As for 70th Avenue... well, you never know haha. My "plan" would see the LRT dive underground just before turning east at 70th, with a short cut-and-cover stretch up to just east of SW Marine Drive. You would have two underground stations at 70th & Granville, and 70th & Oak. It would be the most expensive section of the line, but it would run through a dense part of the city with a ton of likely transit riders - and it would also enable a connection with the Canada Line.

Hmm, I can see the appeal of having a station at Oak and 70th, and maybe another at 70th and Marine (Husky station with the one high-rise apartment building). But consider how many new low-rise condo buildings already exist at Marine and Hudson along with so many apartment buildings. 73rd and Hudson (Wick's) is slated for eventual redevelopment to add density and more amenities. Also consider the bus depot there with over a thousand employees going in and out every day, who could use the Arbutus line to get to relief points as well as get to work, saving CMBC/Translink money in several ways--that's not even mentioning Airport Square. I would argue that continuing down the existing ROW to Marine and Hudson and having a station basically at Marpole Loop makes more sense, especially since it wouldn't cost anything extra for tunneling, etc. A station half a block from 70th and Marine would still be built, and negotiating to use the Kent ROW (already as pointless as the whole Arbutus line for freight purposes) to continue the line to Marine Station would arguably be a lot easier than disrupting via cut and cover (they aren't getting a TBM for such a short section) the huge amount of car traffic going to both the Arthur Laing and the Oak St. Bridge on 70th. In addition, 70th presents huge walkability/accessibility challenges in terms of getting to the stations you mentioned, as long as the level of car traffic on the road is maintained. Same with Oak Street--God forbid you live on the wrong side of Oak and 70th, because it takes risking your life and waiting what feels like 10 minutes just to cross on the walk signals. To change that you would need to take on not only the whole body of regional motorists, but probably the province who have designs on the Oak Street bridge as a part of the Hwy 99 corridor. And Translink sure wouldn't build multiple entrances on this line if they failed to do so even at Broadway-City Hall and Vancouver City-Centre, so we can forget crossing 70th, Oak, Granville, and Marine by going underground. IMO it would be better to keep the stations south/west of Marine at places where Marine is already decently easy to cross (Granville, Hudson, and Cambie), and where pedestrian-oriented development is already taking place and planned to take place on the largest scale. 70th doesn't fit that profile--it isn't actually one of the densest parts of the city. The biggest thing in the works related to 70th right now is a possible Hudson bikeway, which would add bike buttons at Hudson and 70th and change the intersection configuration. Otherwise it's just business as usual--SFH's and a smaller amount of old low-rises bordering a massive arterial.

[Large Cat]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm really not getting why where is so much angst about a greenway/bike path vs. transit. First of all, if we get to the point of needing the corridor for transit it won't be for surface LRT - it will be for some form of grade separated transit. The Expo and Millenium lines have already shown that greenways and bike paths coexist very, very nicely with elevated transit. And (given the voters in the neighborhood) the more likely cut and cover scenario would leave the virtually all the surface area intact once construction is completed.

There is no conflict between greenway and transit, only a synergy.

Agree.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

If I am not mistaken, every single example you referred to is one which the City of Vancouver was not exclusively or even partly in control of. It seems the City of Vancouver is precisely where a vocal minority can be very successful in influencing city policy (unless its something the council members are true believers in).

If Arbutus were to become a rapid transit corridor, the city would probably work on it in conjunction with Translink, the province, and federal government, giving it more clout.

Also, seriously, what has Vancouver tried to build that got stopped dead by protests (and not a building that is a private interest). Even the bike lanes have gone ahead against a rather vocal majority. They even cut down trees in Stanley Park to widen the causeway.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Canada Line was a huge fight, but on multiple levels, mostly regionally with Translink.

I think the point is moot though, the need for any kind of rail transit along Arbutus is decades off. There are easily tens of Billions of transportation projects ahead of it on the list.

Canada Line got built, with cut and cover, like they planned.


And... I don't know about billions of projects, I would say 2: Broadway Subway, and Surrey Rapid Transit.

After that, this is a logical project.

If you are thinking maybe Hastings rapid transit, then Arbutus is a logical proving ground for LRT in Vancouver. Construction would be easy, fast and cheap. The ROW is ready to go from Waterfront station to Marpole as of today!

It also sets up potential points to be the operations yard: the tracks could connect to the Vancouver Transit center next to the Oak street bridge, or you could use industrial land next to the river, or send a little spur down 1st to the False Creek flats and use some industrial land there (much cheaper than using land in residential areas).

And the Arbutus corridor is ripe for TOD. Housing prices there are probably the most out of whack. The neighborhood is too meh to be considered super luxury homes for rich people, and too expensive to be homes for people who need to live in the city. There will soon be pressure to redevelop as it will become increasingly unsustainable to keep them all as detached homes. They just keep getting flipped for absolutely no gain to society. Put up row homes and apartment blocks so the speculators can cash out and let people live in the city again. And to sustain that ten fold increase in population, you have light rail

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Canada Line got built, with cut and cover, like they planned.


And... I don't know about billions of projects, I would say 2: Broadway Subway, and Surrey Rapid Transit.

After that, this is a logical project.

If you are thinking maybe Hastings rapid transit, then Arbutus is a logical proving ground for LRT in Vancouver. Construction would be easy, fast and cheap. The ROW is ready to go from Waterfront station to Marpole as of today!

Cambie was not the preferred route. In fact, I think Arbutus was considered as the original N/S corridor due to the ROW in place.

As for what would be first?

- Skytrain to UBC
- Skytrain to Langley and/or down KGH in Surrey
- Streetcar in Vancouver
- Increased capacity to Canada Line
- More seabuses, expanded transit and/or Second Narrows bridge
- Replacement of other legacy crossings after GMT, like Knight St.

A second N/S rail line in Vancouver about 2km away from a parallel, grade separated line, is decades away from being a realistic option. And billions will be spent in the meantime on more worth projects.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

A second N/S rail line in Vancouver about 2km away from a parallel, grade separated line, is decades away from being a realistic option. And billions will be spent in the meantime on more worth projects.

How can you be so sure about that? I'm sure the City sees the huge potential for transit oriented development along the Arbutus Corridor, so maybe a land use strategy will be drawn up with high capacity transit in mind. That would be the smart thing to do when we desperately need to upzone existing single detached neighbourhoods. The neighbourhoods along Arbutus are by far the best candidates for that - and right now.

The pressure to provide more housing in this city and the region as a whole is too great. My prediction is that we'll see an Arbutus Corridor Plan in place in less than a decade.

[Express691]

The only LRT I ever see forming here is a non-rapid transit type LRT like the Portland Streetcar and the South Lake Union Trolley in Seattle.

Wouldn't putting transit on that corridor just drive up real estate even further?