Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

Can I just chime in here for a second, as someone who has pretty good knowledge about how these things work? Federal governments like shovel ready projects, especially during or right after a recession, because they want credit for handing out the cash before the next election cycle begins which is amplified by pictures of massive infrastructure projects being built. They don't want to give municipalities six million dollars to fund a bunch of studies and designs that will take another 10 years to award and construct. They want to hand cash over to get stuff built ASAP. And guess what: the projects that cities have shovel ready is largely a function of what the local population and elected officials think should be a priority given their budget constraints.

Which brings me to my next point: Winnipeg doesn't have the next legs of rapid transit shovel ready because our elected officials have realized that the money isn't there to do the work and that citizens simply wouldn't want to take a tax hike to pay for it. Therefore we haven't gone out and spent $5 million to get a class 3 estimate on what a grade-separated EBRT looks like because we know we can't afford it and we know cheap-ass Winnipeggers would never want to pay for it.

So yeah, places like Edmonton and Calgary and Vancouver and Ottawa can get money infused into massive infrastructure projects because the people in those cities value those projects, expect their elected officials to plan for them, and expect to pay higher property taxes to fund those projects, thus a lot of major projects in other cities become "shovel ready" because planning for them is in the works before cash is ever handed out.

In Winnipeg, it's different. The capital budget is largely taken up by filling potholes (local and regional street renewal takes up almost a third of the capital budget) and constructing waste water projects (North End, South End, and main renewals/replacements). We don't have a lot of cash left over for BRT planning, interchanges, community centres, or other major infrastructure projects. Why? Because people simply don't want to pay for it, as reflected in our low property taxes. So we aren't going to blow millions of dollars running studies on projects we know we will never do because that is also a waste of tax dollars. The result is that when the Feds come running to municipalities asking where they can shovel a bunch of cash, we get caught with our pants down and end up doing lame things like fixing bus garages and rennoing community centres because that's all we planned for and because that's all we were prepared to pay for.

So the next time you see a Winnipegger complain about missed federal funding opportunities, look them straight in the eye and tell them it's their own fault because at the end of the day, it all comes down to citizen priorities and Winnipeggers have made it abundantly clear that we'd rather have low tax and pay for nothing than have high tax and pay for something.

That was the point. Winnipeg never get's anything done. If we as a City could just focus for one second, it would be awesome. But Francois in St. B doesn't want a damn thing to change. Sally in Charleswood, same thing. Just want moar roads. And there's a place for that sure. But overall everyone wants their negihbourhoods as is because that's just the way it is. Buses in Winnipeg are the loser cruiser. That's the widespread perception. Also downtown is unsafe so Sally is very resistant to coming in from the burbs.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

That was the point. Winnipeg never get's anything done.

And my point was this isn't a municipal governance issue, this is simply a reflection of the will of the people which translates into the directions given to administration by elected officials. The City's not going to study doing 3 more legs of rapid transit or make grade separated ring roads if elected officials do not instruct them to do so, and elected officials won't instruct them to do so if they know citizens will not want to pay for those projects.

Winnipeg's shortcomings rest solely on the shoulders of it's own citizens, myself included.

[bomberjet]

That's what I said. We as a city being the people, everyone. Including elected officials. Many people want grade separated ring roads. But we cant afford it on our own. Can't afford much really. Many people do want good transit service too.

Anyways, we've talked about this endlessly before. Pretty sad state of affairs when all that gets talked about during elections is potholes and a downtown intersection.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

^^^You missed one thing about the budget that is unique here in Winnipeg. WPS and WFPS take up just over 47% of the city budget. COW just tried to rein in overtime/pension costs for WPS but this was challenged by the union and the result was a ruling against the COW.

[bomberjet]

A dedicated route from KP to U of M would be about 17km in length. Utilizing the route along the CN line that would go behind Walmart (where buses already go which is kind of weird). It could go on into Transcona on whatever route they wanted.

How long would that take. 17km and maybe 50 km/h is like 20 mins. Make it 30 mins. Compared to 45-52 mins is a lot of time savings would be had and people/buses off the roads. If the City would frame things in that way to the public, maybe more things would get done.

But all the public sees is a BRT going from U of M to downtown, which doesn't serve them directly, so transit overall is stupid.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

^^^You missed one thing about the budget that is unique here in Winnipeg. WPS and WFPS take up just over 47% of the city budget. COW just tried to rein in overtime/pension costs for WPS but this was challenged by the union and the result was a ruling against the COW.

While that statistic certainly stands out, the level of funding that goes towards Police and Fire is not terribly out of line relative to other major Canadian cities. And being a prairie city means additional resources in those departments might be justified.

What makes your statistic pop out is that the level of funding going to all other functions of the city is relatively small compared to other cities because budgets have been so tight, so as a % of total expenditures police and fire seem disproportionately large. If other civic services were funded to an adequate level, then Police and Fire share would be lower.

The data makes it clear that over time, Winnipeg has chosen to lower resources dedicated to other functions and increase resources to Police and Fire, while maintaining marginal increases in it's overall budget. The result is that other services like Transit, Public Works, and Planning have starved in order to feed the safety departments. In other cities, they got their cake and ate it too; they increased both safety and non-safety resources. In Winnipeg, we only chose to increase resources allocated to one side and reduced the other in order to maintain low property taxes.

If Winnipeg's property taxes were closer to the Canadian average instead of being on the bottom end, all departments would have a lot more money to work with on an annual basis but Winnipeggers are particularity sensitive to property tax for some reason, which enables the Province to get away with high income tax but municipalities struggle to raise the revenue they need.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

^^^You missed one thing about the budget that is unique here in Winnipeg. WPS and WFPS take up just over 47% of the city budget. COW just tried to rein in overtime/pension costs for WPS but this was challenged by the union and the result was a ruling against the COW.

Yeah those people wield a bit too much power for my liking. That number is completely unacceptable.

[pacman]

The thing is, I don't agree that the will of the people right now is to skimp out and pay less taxes resulting in the status quo without long term vision. I agree that was the case in the 80's and 90's when citizens got sick and tired of paying high taxes without reaping any big picture benefits. From my memory there was a long period of time where we paid the highest property taxes amongst large cities in Canada. The will of the people at that time absolutely became "hell no to high taxes" and that resulted in bringing Winnipeg's taxes first to being competitive and eventually becoming relatively low.

People noticed that services ended up getting cut, infrastructure maintenance suffered, and eventually the will of the people swerved back towards "justifiable tax increases" are ok. Correct my memory if its wrong, but I specifically remember Bowman's first election campaign essentially being based on massive spending to build out the complete rapid transit system. This wasn't a minor part of his platform.

The fact that the City hasn't been progressive in their planning in order to do the required studies and design work to get projects to a shovel ready state is because the politicians failed to follow through on their election platforms when the going got tough.

Its easy to default to blaming the "will of the people" when looking at the City's short sighted planning policies and lack of big picture big project big spending vision (I agree that was absolutely the case in the past), but its actually a copout for Bowman's administration. When he was first elected, there absolutely an appetite to increase taxes (reasonably) and get going on big transit projects. Unfortunately, when he needed the balls to make big decisions, he lacked them.

By the way, I haven't used Winnipeg's transit in years (except park and ride for Bomber games) so I'm not a transit cheerleader. I'm also a conservative for the most part and tend to lean toward being fiscally restrained and hate wasteful spending. That being said, I am opportunistic and hate seeing federal money passing us by simply because the foresight isn't there to be prepared. Blaming the constituents for politician's shortfalls is an easy out. They are there to work for the greater good and look at the big picture their constituents can't or don't care to see.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by pacman

Its easy to default to blaming the "will of the people" when looking at the City's short sighted planning policies and lack of big picture big project big spending vision (I agree that was absolutely the case in the past), but its actually a copout for Bowman's administration. When he was first elected, there absolutely an appetite to increase taxes (reasonably) and get going on big transit projects. Unfortunately, when he needed the balls to make big decisions, he lacked them.

I'd argue that your answer is both correct and incorrect. Yes, Bowman did increase taxes but because of Winnipegger's preferences, of the 2.33% annual increases, 2% goes to filling potholes ("street renewal") and .33% goes to the existing BRT. All Bowman would need to do to add 3 more legs of similarly-priced rapid transit, is add another 1% on top of that for the next 8 years. But he didn't, and won't. Why? Because he chose a fiscal hawk (Gillingham, an ordained minister and a board member of local senior homes) to head the finance committee, and that particular Councillor is adamant that taxes do not be increased beyond what the Mayor initially promised. To add insult to injury, an unreliable and uncooperative Conservative provincial government who now regularly reneges on previous financial commitments makes it impossible to come to any sort of tri-level cost sharing agreements on future infrastructure projects.

The problem with local politicians is they know nothing about how finances work, both before an election and sometimes after. It's easy to promise the moon before getting elected (or in this case, 3 legs of rapid transit) only to be briefed about how constrained city finances are after coming in to power realizing that you could literally never deliver on the promise of both infrastructure investment and low property taxes.

Yeah, technically Bowman could break his promise and inch up taxes just a little bit to do some real city building, but pressure from a conservative finance chair would prevent this. I'd say this is a failure of both elected officials and a fiscally conservative voter base who put pressure on the elected officials.

[bomberjet]

Taxes were frozen for like 10-20 years before Bowman came around. That's where the problem lies.

[pacman]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Taxes were frozen for like 10-20 years before Bowman came around. That's where the problem lies.

Exactly, we went from one extreme to another... and when the tax base finally realized we went too extreme and were willing to pay more, we had a mayoral candidate that spoke about big picture and big ticket projects. That mayor was voted in on that platform and then he got scared when it came time to put up.

[pacman]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

I'd argue that your answer is both correct and incorrect. Yes, Bowman did increase taxes but because of Winnipegger's preferences, of the 2.33% annual increases, 2% goes to filling potholes ("street renewal") and .33% goes to the existing BRT. All Bowman would need to do to add 3 more legs of similarly-priced rapid transit, is add another 1% on top of that for the next 8 years. But he didn't, and won't. Why? Because he chose a fiscal hawk (Gillingham, an ordained minister and a board member of local senior homes) to head the finance committee, and that particular Councillor is adamant that taxes do not be increased beyond what the Mayor initially promised. To add insult to injury, an unreliable and uncooperative Conservative provincial government who now regularly reneges on previous financial commitments makes it impossible to come to any sort of tri-level cost sharing agreements on future infrastructure projects.

The problem with local politicians is they know nothing about how finances work, both before an election and sometimes after. It's easy to promise the moon before getting elected (or in this case, 3 legs of rapid transit) only to be briefed about how constrained city finances are after coming in to power realizing that you could literally never deliver on the promise of both infrastructure investment and low property taxes.

Yeah, technically Bowman could break his promise and inch up taxes just a little bit to do some real city building, but pressure from a conservative finance chair would prevent this. I'd say this is a failure of both elected officials and a fiscally conservative voter base who put pressure on the elected officials.

I don't think I disagree with you. I recognise that Bowman probably walked into a bigger mess than he was expecting, but again, there was a clear mandate from the people to get moving on the big projects, get ready - shovel ready, and when it makes sense do it. His choice of a fiscal conservative to hold his hand during this process is on him and can't be used as a get out of jail free card to escape blame for unfulfilled promises.

Listen, I think everyone with a warm brain at the time knew that Bowman couldn't possibly fulfill his BRT promises 100% but he still got people excited, gave people hope that there was some vision. I don't consider it a failure that he hasn't fully built out the BRT, but I consider it a failure that there isn't even ONE single phase of any future leg that is currently even close to shovel ready.

It isn't often that voters are motivated to elect someone who will raise taxes, and those feelings don't last forever. He squandered the opportunities he's had so far, and if the feds came today he still wouldn't be ready to spend their money. Granted, the PC's at the provincial level have really been a pain in Bowman's ass, they don't get a pass in this... but they are exactly what Broadway needed when they were elected so its hard for me to assign blame there.

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

A dedicated route from KP to U of M would be about 17km in length. Utilizing the route along the CN line that would go behind Walmart (where buses already go which is kind of weird). It could go on into Transcona on whatever route they wanted.

How long would that take. 17km and maybe 50 km/h is like 20 mins. Make it 30 mins. Compared to 45-52 mins is a lot of time savings would be had and people/buses off the roads. If the City would frame things in that way to the public, maybe more things would get done.

Considering that the Blue line takes 28 minutes just to go from Winnipeg Square to UofM, it's definitely not gonna make it from KP to UofM in 30 minutes!

[joshlemer]

I pass by the new RT corridor behind Pembina near Markham every day, and on most days I see police cruisers going up and down the transit corridor. Is that supposed to be happening? I would definitely understand that in a pinch, cops and other emergency vehicles should use the blue line to skip traffic, but these cruisers don't seem to be especially in a hurry and don't have their lights or sirens on. Seems like a bit of an abuse tbh.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

Considering that the Blue line takes 28 minutes just to go from Winnipeg Square to UofM, it's definitely not gonna make it from KP to UofM in 30 minutes!

If they didn't stop it could! haha I just used 50 km/h as an average which is 20 mins for a 17km length.. Still 28 mins to drive the 10.5km length of the transitway..

It really wouldn't take much longer though. Get them off Main St and onto a corridor. They would stop at union station, P&M, St. B, then by Arhcibald somewhere, by Thomas/Panet area. Then they at KP.

I also think they could use some type of skip station routing. There's no need to be stopping at Clarence and chevrier stations, for example, with every bus. However that would sort of defeat the purpose of the spine route. Having to wait for a particular bus instead of just watching for BLUE.

Originally Posted by joshlemer

I pass by the new RT corridor behind Pembina near Markham every day, and on most days I see police cruisers going up and down the transit corridor. Is that supposed to be happening? I would definitely understand that in a pinch, cops and other emergency vehicles should use the blue line to skip traffic, but these cruisers don't seem to be especially in a hurry and don't have their lights or sirens on. Seems like a bit of an abuse tbh.

Emergency vehicles are permitted to use the trasnitway. Hopefully they're not just using it instead of Pembina simply because they can.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

If they didn't stop it could! haha I just used 50 km/h as an average which is 20 mins for a 17km length.. Still 28 mins to drive the 10.5km length of the transitway..

It really wouldn't take much longer though. Get them off Main St and onto a corridor. They would stop at union station, P&M, St. B, then by Arhcibald somewhere, by Thomas/Panet area. Then they at KP.

I also think they could use some type of skip station routing. There's no need to be stopping at Clarence and chevrier stations, for example, with every bus. However that would sort of defeat the purpose of the spine route. Having to wait for a particular bus instead of just watching for BLUE.



Emergency vehicles are permitted to use the trasnitway. Hopefully they're not just using it instead of Pembina simply because they can.

We are kind of stuck with the crowded stations. Clarence and Chevrier, Seel and Beaumont stations could have just been 2 stations. It is what it is now and would definitely defeat the purpose to skip stations.

[dmacc]

I've noticed the transit priority lights at clarence and chevrier are quite quick and busses only slow down marginally while approaching. This is fine since the stations are so close and the speed limit at the stations are only 30 km/h anyway.

[buzzg]

So how are all the school bus drivers supposed to use the transitway for IGF event shuttles if WT drivers had to train to be able to drive on it?

Originally Posted by dmacc

I've noticed the transit priority lights at clarence and chevrier are quite quick and busses only slow down marginally while approaching. This is fine since the stations are so close and the speed limit at the stations are only 30 km/h anyway.

They should do this at Harkness and Stradbrook, or at the very least busses should be able to exit the transitway to Harkness and the start and end of each light cycle. Right now sometimes you have several busses stacked up and waiting for a few minutes – and the transit priority light is very short (doesn't seem to monitor if busses are cleared).

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Taxes were frozen for like 10-20 years before Bowman came around. That's where the problem lies.

Taxes were frozen and yet property taxes in a Winnipeg were still among the highest in Canada!

Not the taxpayers fault the COW chose to give half their budget to the WPS and WFPS so members could all make $100K + annually with a gold plated benefit package and a platinum retirement package all with just a grade 12 education!

[buzzg]

Blame the unions, especially emergency ones.