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[OldDartmouthMark]

From the standpoint of supply and demand, shouldn't an increase in supply result in lower prices across the board?

[Half-Axed]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

From the standpoint of supply and demand, shouldn't an increase in supply result in lower prices across the board?

Assuming the demand doesn’t keep increasing faster than the supply, that could be the case…but given Halifax’s rate of growth and the state of the real estate market Canada (and world) wide, I think that’s questionable.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Just surprised at some of the responses here.

Even if they are just speeding up the process of getting things approved and built, 22,000 residences will typically house 2 - 5 people in each, which can only be good for a place with sub-1% vacancy rates. So how is moving along the creation of housing for 20,000 to 100,000 people not going to have a positive effect on the housing situation here?

Meanwhile, all the other projects in progress are still being built, some with fairly good density. I'm amazed at the number of excavations and cranes in the city when I drive around.

Yet: "sprawl", "not low-cost housing", blah blah blah...

[someone123]

I think the housing problems in Canada go far deeper than municipal planning questions and this measure can't single-handedly solve them but it's already a step beyond what I've seen here in BC, where housing affordability is much worse. And even though there are complaints about the mobile housing units (not sure if they're being used yet) the response was quicker than what we've seen here. It's interesting to me how the politics and approach vary from region to region.

I'd be interested to see how the nuts and bolts of this play out. In Halifax, like in many cities, the planning steps, waiting for permits, fees, and so on likely add significantly to the cost. So even if it doesn't get more housing built (because trades are working as much as possible or whatever) it could still drop prices somewhat.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The electric 'fast ferry' remains in the capital budget. No supporting analysis has been provided to council but in the world of shiny ponies this is at the top, and it it is predicated on the feds and the province throwing away money on a project which has no value.

Not sure why there is such opposition to the ferry project. The road network as it stands is pretty much at capacity during rush hour, CN has shut down the commuter rail idea, but we have an unused "infrastructure" in the form of a harbour.

So the ferry and terminals will be expensive, sure. But there are no maintenance costs associated with the harbour, as there are with roads and rail systems. So you're just maintaining the buildings and the vehicles. It's like having a dedicated transit bridge between Bedford, Shannon Park, and DT Halifax (plus maybe Larry Uteck?), but you don't have to build and maintain the bridge because the vehicle just uses the waterway.

Is it the electric aspect that is perceived as the problem? Well, FWIW, virtually the entire road-going vehicle fleet, public and private, will be switching over to electric over the next 30 years, so may as well invest in the technology that everything will be moving to anyhow.

I'm always surprised when the idea of a ferry is met with such negativity, especially from people who live in a place that has the oldest continually operated salt water ferry service in North America. We have the harbour, so we may as well use it - the idea should be nothing new to us.

[Keith P.]

The idea of ferries appeals to some but the reality is they are like a bridge with no roads connecting either end in our scenario. People need to get to the departure point and then get from the arrival point to wherever they need to go. This is where Halifax Transit consistently has failed. I am not optimistic that will change with new bright shiny ferries.

The other issue with ferries is that they carry relatively few passengers and tend to be slow. They are also very expensive on a per-passenger basis outside of peak hours. The electric propulsion system seems to be more HRM virtue signalling as even the best charging technology will still require significant time to fill their batteries with juice. Presumably that will happen overnight but you will then need significant battery capacity on-board to keep them moving all day. Not saying that is insurmountable but it gets expensive. We would probably be better served by a hydrogen-based power source. I understand Heritage Gas is already moving in that direction.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

A few things...

It makes little sense to me for the city to take on an additional form of transportation/technology when eventually the city will have to adopt rail. If one's argument is that the city will not grow sufficiently in the future to require rail, then ok, fast ferries will help. But I see rail as the endgame and can't reconcile the cost of fast ferries as an interim measure.

Our current ferry system does make sense. It allows for the avoidance of the bridges, lessens congestion on the bridges, and it is a short trip from one centre to another. Bedford on the other hand has a 100 series highway just up the hill with no impediments direct to downtown. It's too close to the final destination to pry folks from the privacy of their warm cozy cars on a winter's day to endure a 20 minute choppy ride to city centre where they will then have to walk or bus to their final destination. And, a ferry terminal downtown will be the only stop. There's no getting off at the shipyard, etc. halfway. A train would have at least several stops between bedford and city centre.

CN cannot say no forever. Overwrought claims of CN punishing us in some manner are ... I'd probably say no to city councillors too but little doubt that provincial and federal politicians could figure it out.

[Half-Axed]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Just surprised at some of the responses here.

Even if they are just speeding up the process of getting things approved and built, 22,000 residences will typically house 2 - 5 people in each, which can only be good for a place with sub-1% vacancy rates. So how is moving along the creation of housing for 20,000 to 100,000 people not going to have a positive effect on the housing situation here?

Meanwhile, all the other projects in progress are still being built, some with fairly good density. I'm amazed at the number of excavations and cranes in the city when I drive around.

Yet: "sprawl", "not low-cost housing", blah blah blah...

I don't think anyone is suggesting it won't help to house more people in general - obviously it will - but I suspect that Halifax...and the country...and indeed the world may be past the point where simply increasing supply will lower prices in any significant way.

Hopefully it will slow the insane inflation, at least, but I think significant regulation and "decommodification" will be needed to move the market back to one that is about housing people rather than one that is about building minor fiefdoms and sheltering corporate money.

Unless these developments specifically include plenty of low-cost housing, lower-income people are likely still left out in the cold. (But maybe they do include it?)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

It makes little sense to me for the city to take on an additional form of transportation/technology when eventually the city will have to adopt rail. If one's argument is that the city will not grow sufficiently in the future to require rail, then ok, fast ferries will help. But I see rail as the endgame and can't reconcile the cost of fast ferries as an interim measure.

Our current ferry system does make sense. It allows for the avoidance of the bridges, lessens congestion on the bridges, and it is a short trip from one centre to another. Bedford on the other hand has a 100 series highway just up the hill with no impediments direct to downtown. It's too close to the final destination to pry folks from the privacy of their warm cozy cars on a winter's day to endure a 20 minute choppy ride to city centre where they will then have to walk or bus to their final destination. And, a ferry terminal downtown will be the only stop. There's no getting off at the shipyard, etc. halfway. A train would have at least several stops between bedford and city centre.

CN cannot say no forever. Overwrought claims of CN punishing us in some manner are ... I'd probably say no to city councillors too but little doubt that provincial and federal politicians could figure it out.

I agree. Ferries do have a place in the overall transportation network, especially for short excursions to and from Dartmouth. The existing system works reasonably well.

A fast ferry to Bedford is more problematic. I think unless you have four (or more) ferries on the run, that the route will suffer from tremendous capacity issues, and, would also be at serious risk of failure if one (or more) of the ferries went out of service for maintenance or mechanical issues.

I agree with you that the ferry system is inflexible in the sense it does not allow for intermediate stops along the way. At least commuter rail would allow for stops in places like Mill Cove, MSVU, HSC, Dalhousie and maybe St. Mary's along the way. These intermediate stops would help boost utility of the service and potentially usage.

Commuter rail could also range further afield in order to generate ridership, including to Windsor Junction, Waverley, Enfield or even further. There would be a lot more flexibility to tune the service to demand. Frequency of service would probably be more modifiable too.

People will still have to get to the Bedford ferry terminal in order to use the fast ferry service. Do you propose a park 'n ride, or a bus terminal at the Bedford ferry terminal?

Acceptance of fast ferries may be problematic. A ferry ride can be very pleasant, but also can be uncomfortable if the weather is stormy. Bad weather could also affect service reliability (more so than rail). Fast ferries are not a panacea and are not the complete answer to Halifax's woes.

Ferries have a place, but the backbone of a regional transit service should be commuter rail, supplemented by busses, LRT on the peninsula, and, yes, a ferry service to Dartmouth. A fast ferry service to Bedford is at best a distraction, and will delay the development of a real solution - commuter rail.

[someone123]

The thing with the ferries is that the capital outlay is so minor that it barely registers in the long run. If the city and province really want rail they will have to spend a billion dollars or more and it won't matter if there's a ferry to Bedford or not. These aren't mutually exclusive options.

I think Halifax is making the mistake of most modern Canadian cities and waiting far too long to build higher order transit infrastructure that will be needed. It should be planning for subway infrastructure downtown today for example. Maybe that's not the most cost-effective or best option but I don't think the analysis has even been done and if the province gave it the green light tomorrow it wouldn't be operational before 2030.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

A few things...

It makes little sense to me for the city to take on an additional form of transportation/technology when eventually the city will have to adopt rail. If one's argument is that the city will not grow sufficiently in the future to require rail, then ok, fast ferries will help. But I see rail as the endgame and can't reconcile the cost of fast ferries as an interim measure.

Our current ferry system does make sense. It allows for the avoidance of the bridges, lessens congestion on the bridges, and it is a short trip from one centre to another. Bedford on the other hand has a 100 series highway just up the hill with no impediments direct to downtown. It's too close to the final destination to pry folks from the privacy of their warm cozy cars on a winter's day to endure a 20 minute choppy ride to city centre where they will then have to walk or bus to their final destination. And, a ferry terminal downtown will be the only stop. There's no getting off at the shipyard, etc. halfway. A train would have at least several stops between bedford and city centre.

CN cannot say no forever. Overwrought claims of CN punishing us in some manner are ... I'd probably say no to city councillors too but little doubt that provincial and federal politicians could figure it out.

The other thing fouling up any serious consideration of rail aside from the CN issues is the insistence by the ATU that they operate any Transit rail infrastructure. That will not rest well with CN and its employees.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Just surprised at some of the responses here.

Even if they are just speeding up the process of getting things approved and built, 22,000 residences will typically house 2 - 5 people in each, which can only be good for a place with sub-1% vacancy rates. So how is moving along the creation of housing for 20,000 to 100,000 people not going to have a positive effect on the housing situation here?

Meanwhile, all the other projects in progress are still being built, some with fairly good density. I'm amazed at the number of excavations and cranes in the city when I drive around.

Yet: "sprawl", "not low-cost housing", blah blah blah...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconv...problem-172846

Housing is both a human right and a profitable asset, and that's the problem

Brian Doucet, University of Waterloo

It seems like everyone is talking about housing these days. For many, it is in a state of crisis. But for others, it is a market doing exactly what it should be doing: making money. The crux of the housing problem is that it is both a basic human right and a commodity from which to extract wealth.

Most housing debates largely ignore this contradiction. Those who oppose new developments and those who believe we need more housing both focus on numbers, design, zoning and density. These perspectives miss key questions about housing for whom, against whom, who profits and who is excluded.

[Half-Axed]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconv...problem-172846

I was going to post this one. Similar messages:

https://toughnickel.com/real-estate/...as-a-Commodity

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I agree with you that the ferry system is inflexible in the sense it does not allow for intermediate stops along the way. At least commuter rail would allow for stops in places like Mill Cove, MSVU, HSC, Dalhousie and maybe St. Mary's along the way. These intermediate stops would help boost utility of the service and potentially usage.

In theory there's nothing preventing something like a Mill Cove - Birch Cove - Shannon Park - Downtown route if that's what Transit decided to go with, they would just need to factor that into the terminal and boat designs, scheduling, etc. I could see things going in that direction once there are enough terminals and enough uses around the terminals to make it worthwhile - some combination of "lines" and express routes.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Hali87

In theory there's nothing preventing something like a Mill Cove - Birch Cove - Shannon Park - Downtown route if that's what Transit decided to go with, they would just need to factor that into the terminal and boat designs, scheduling, etc. I could see things going in that direction once there are enough terminals and enough uses around the terminals to make it worthwhile - some combination of "lines" and express routes.

That would be one long, slow commute.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That would be one long, slow commute.

Staten Island Ferry has a capacity of 5,000, runs 24/7 - 365 days a year & is free.

Staten Island Ferry
https://www.siferry.com/

[Colin May]

Again, there has been analysis of an electric ferry and the impact upon commuters. It is a shiny pony to be financed with federal money and a small amount from HRM. The impact upon commuters to the peninsula is negligible.

[someone123]

Increasingly there is development on the peninsula and there will be growing trip demand within that area. I'm not sure the city has an answer that is a fit for the scale of development and planning density increase over the longer term. Active transportation can be a part of it but not 100% modal share for the new trips.

Again I don't understand the objection that ferries are not going to by themselves solve the transportation problems of the metro area. This kind of thinking always seemed emblematic of how little regional transportation planning happens in Halifax. There will have to be many projects that suit different areas and different kinds of trips. The framework should be cost-benefit and alternatives, not "does this project solve transportation".

[Half-Axed]

It turns out one of the 9 nodes will indeed include a whole development for affordable housing:

https://www.nsbuzz.ca/life/nova-scot...-in-dartmouth/

https://www.saltwire.com/halifax/new...uth-100711517/

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Increasingly there is development on the peninsula and there will be growing trip demand within that area. I'm not sure the city has an answer that is a fit for the scale of development and planning density increase over the longer term. Active transportation can be a part of it but not 100% modal share for the new trips.

Again I don't understand the objection that ferries are not going to by themselves solve the transportation problems of the metro area. This kind of thinking always seemed emblematic of how little regional transportation planning happens in Halifax. There will have to be many projects that suit different areas and different kinds of trips. The framework should be cost-benefit and alternatives, not "does this project solve transportation".

Agreed.

A number of people still seem to think that Halifax is on the verge of bankruptcy and thus shouldn't increase transit options despite the fact that we are witnessing unprecedented growth. I would suggest that it's that very idea that has landed us in the poor transit situation that we are in now, and the reason I think that we should add ferry service and still pursue some form of rail transit (heavy rail on CN's tracks, LRT, underground, overhead... whatever). Enough of the 'culture of defeat' - time for us to look forward and grow the city properly, rather than simply thinking of reasons that we shouldn't do anything.

Like any form of transit, there are downsides to ferry service - some that could be helped service changes (l.e. BRT from Sackville to Mill Cove, etc.), but overall I don't see any of these concerns to be enough to toss out the idea entirely.

As far as funding from the federal government goes... isn't that a good thing for Halifax? I mean, won't those funds just go to another municipality in another province if Halifax doesn't use them? Not sure why we wouldn't want to use federal funds to tap into our unused capacity for moving people around (one that I will add that other cities aren't fortunate enough to have). So... despite some well-thought-out and interesting responses, I'm still not buying the negativity towards ferries. Sorry.