The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Bombardier can't deliver, so they went with Alstom with a proven track record.

I'm not sure about that. Bombardier technically delivered the AZUR metro sets to Montreal in time, but Alstom screwed up and caused them to be delayed by about a year (they subcontracted disastrous software).

There is certainly more political blood-lust for Bombardier in Ontario no doubt, but Alstom doesn't have a proven track record in Canada. Also just imho but Alstom's LRT cars and metropolis metros are quite outdated, looks-wise.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

I'm not sure about that. Bombardier technically delivered the AZUR metro sets to Montreal in time, but Alstom screwed up and caused them to be delayed by about a year (they subcontracted disastrous software).

There is certainly more political blood-lust for Bombardier in Ontario no doubt, but Alstom doesn't have a proven track record in Canada. Also just imho but Alstom's LRT cars and metropolis metros are quite outdated, looks-wise.

in Montéal the REMs stations will have platform screen automatic doors. the REM should look like the Sydney Metro.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

in Montéal the REMs stations will have platform screen automatic doors. the REM should look like the Sydney Metro.

Yes, that's true. The Sydney metro cars somewhat resemble the AZUR cars with a certain level of "cheapening".

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

I'm not sure about that. Bombardier technically delivered the AZUR metro sets to Montreal in time, but Alstom screwed up and caused them to be delayed by about a year (they subcontracted disastrous software).

There is certainly more political blood-lust for Bombardier in Ontario no doubt, but Alstom doesn't have a proven track record in Canada. Also just imho but Alstom's LRT cars and metropolis metros are quite outdated, looks-wise.

Alstom has delivered Ottawa's LRT vehicles quite well. Yes, they aren't in revenue service yet but they've all been built and most of have been tested and they're working great. This is actually quite impressive because the Citadis Spirit is a completely new vehicle for Alstom.. it takes the body of a European Citadis 300 tram and converts it into a light metro vehicle (with features like automation and high top speeds).

[nephersir7]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

I'm not sure about that. Bombardier technically delivered the AZUR metro sets to Montreal in time, but Alstom screwed up and caused them to be delayed by about a year (they subcontracted disastrous software).

An even more disastrous screw-up by Alstom was the Metro's new command centre, which cost 4 times as much as estimated and took 9 years instead of 3. The STM was so pissed off at them that at one point they had stopped paying Alstom and considered cancelling the project and starting over from scratch with another supplier.

After the system finally went live, it caused multiple system-wide outages in the first 2 years.

[Hybrid247]

Cool shot of the Ottawa lrt tunnel


https://twitter.com/JimWatsonOttawa/status/985216014039171072

[Horus]

This just in... Bombardier is still terrible.
https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/ion-launch-delayed-until-december-1.3884466

Ion launch delayed until December

CTV Kitchener
Published Friday, April 13, 2018 4:38PM EDT
Last Updated Friday, April 13, 2018 6:21PM EDT

Light rail transit vehicles are now expected to start running in Waterloo Region in December – more than one year after the initial target date.

A report going before regional councillors next week says the region expects to receive all 14 light rail vehicles for the Ion system from Bombardier by June. After that, the vehicles will undergo six months of testing before passenger service starts.

In addition to the testing, the six months will be used to install “specialized equipment that will allow (the vehicles) to operate at higher speeds” as well as adjust traffic lights and provide real-time data about when they are expected to arrive at stops.

“We’re disappointed, and I’m sure a lot of citizens and businesses are disappointed,” Coun. Tom Galloway said Friday in an interview.

The initial contract for the project called for all vehicles to be in Waterloo Region by the end of 2016. That date was later revised to the end of 2017.

The contract also set out fines for missing the delivery dates, up to a maximum of $3.3 million. The contract now in place allows for further financial penalties if Bombardier fails to meet the current timetable. Galloway called the new penalty “much higher” than the initial fine of $21,000 per undelivered train per day behind schedule.

“That is highly motivating them to get them here,” he said.

There are currently four light rail vehicles in Waterloo Region. Two more are considered to be ready to ship to the region.

The report says assembly of 11 of the 14 vehicles are “complete or close to complete.” According to Galloway, a fifth vehicle is expected to arrive in Waterloo Region within days and a sixth could be here by the end of next week.

[1overcosc]

Bombardier should be banned from ever bidding on Ontario projects ever again.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Bombardier should be banned from ever bidding on Ontario projects ever again.

They're effectively banning themselves from any future projects in the GTA or elsewhere with their pathetic recent record of delivery failures.

Hopefully the federal politicians, particularly those representing the Metrolinx districts, have long memories the next time Bombardier comes hat in hand to the Government for yet more subsidy money.

[SFUVancouver]

How is it that Bombardier hasn't ever had any issues delivering SkyTrain vehicles to Translink but can't seem to get anything right in Ontario?

[1overcosc]

Because in Ontario contracts are basically sole sourced to Bombardier in exchange for building the trains in Thunder Bay. In other words classic protectionist-corporate welfare bullshit.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Bombardier should be banned from ever bidding on Ontario projects ever again.

They're effectively banned from bidding on New York projects:

Originally Posted by Globe and Mail

Bombardier Inc. has been dropped from the bidding to supply a new fleet of subway cars for New York's Metropolitan Transit Authority in a setback for its North America rail business after winning a string of foreign orders this year.

"We are extremely disappointed as we spent considerable time developing an innovative solution that included world-class subway cars, an attractive delivery schedule, a competitive price, and the creation of U.S. jobs, many in New York State," Bombardier spokesman Eric Prud'Homme said in a statement on Tuesday.

In a recent memo to Bombardier staff, Mr. Brossoit said the company's "poor performance and serious delays" on a separate New York subway contract sealed its fate on the larger deal, according to a report in Le Journal de Montréal.

Bombardier is between 12 and 24 months behind schedule in delivering 300 subway cars for another section of the city's subway system.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o...ew-york-subway-contract/article36112447/

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Bombardier should be banned from ever bidding on Ontario projects ever again.

Still not as bad as Alstom's track-record in Montreal, for context. There is also the issue of Kitchener-Waterloo's 6 month timeline, which is being called out harshly over on UT.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Because in Ontario contracts are basically sole sourced to Bombardier in exchange for building the trains in Thunder Bay. In other words classic protectionist-corporate welfare bullshit.

Where do you think the entire, on-time fleet of Skytrain Mark I - Mark IV cars were built? Thunder Bay.

I don't work for or invest in Bombardier, but this has nothing to do with "classic protectionist-corporate welfare bullshit," and it's hardly unusual for a country to preferentially invest in its own companies.
Bombardier has been reeling from a supply chain disaster at their Sahagun, Mexico plant, that has caused a snowball effect on Flexity car production for both the TTC and Metrolinx. Their response, doubling production by way of the Kingston plant has sped up production considerably, but it's too late to repair their tarnished image in the near-term.

I'm just trying to bring some sense to the mess, because there's a lot of meaningless screaming and shouting around the issue.

[WhipperSnapper]

Is it now? The T1 subway cars delivered in the mid 1990s were mired with issues and high repair and maintenance costs as things wore out long before their life expectancy. The TTC has been dissatisfied with Bombardier product for over 20 years but, yet Bombardier has been the exclusive suppler of rail transit since then. The Alstom contract in Montreal is a cause for concern but, it has really nothing to do Bombardier's consistent mediocrity in Ontario. Plus, Alstom and Bombardier aren't the only companies.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Is it now? The T1 subway cars delivered in the mid 1990s were mired with issues and high repair and maintenance costs as things wore out long before their life expectancy. The TTC has been dissatisfied with Bombardier product for over 20 years but, yet Bombardier has been the exclusive suppler of rail transit since then. The Alstom contract in Montreal is a cause for concern but, it has really nothing to do Bombardier's consistent mediocrity in Ontario. Plus, Alstom and Bombardier aren't the only companies.

Yeah, perhaps Siemens? I don't know how their delivery turned out in Calgary but I haven't heard anything particularly bad at least. I still disagree with blanket statements like "Bombardier should be banned from bidding in Ontario." That just shoots Ontario in the foot, hits the local economy, and Bombardier doesn't learn a lesson that helps the province's transit, rather they would just stop supplying Ontario altogether.

At the very least, foreign entities should continue to employ Canadian builders and source local content where possible (this last part would have helped BBD avoid the TTC streetcar delivery delays). There's no need to drag the country and economy down over a distaste for BBD.

[WhipperSnapper]

I don't agree. The most value is getting the most reliable quality for the most affordable price. It's a great bonus should it be from Ontario but, if not, than so be it. We shouldn't be mudding our limited transit capital funds with make work projects. Inefficient transit impacts our economy in ways that a few manufacturing jobs is infinitesimal.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I don't agree. The most value is getting the most reliable quality for the most affordable price. It's a great bonus should it be from Ontario but, if not, than so be it. We shouldn't be mudding our limited transit capital funds with make work projects. Inefficient transit impacts our economy in ways that a few manufacturing jobs is infinitesimal.

No, this isn't a few people making an average wage in a production facility, this is several billion dollars worth of reinvestment into the economy. If you were going to ban a major supplier because of your emotions and a recent streetcar fiasco (although as hard as it may be to believe, the same final delivery date for that has remained unchanged), you would essentially be relying on faith that another supplier would do a better job of delivering on a tender.

[Innsertnamehere]

Bombardier delays on the TTC order have forced bus conversions of various streetcar routes for several years now. Even if the original delivery date remains the same, the rate of delivery has been significantly slower, causing the TTC millions in incurred costs.

The scale of the purchase doesn't change the fact that Bombardier has failed its delivery schedule on a level that isn't anywhere close to acceptable. The constant missing of their revised schedules they would issue every few months seemed actually comical for a while there.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

No, this isn't a few people making an average wage in a production facility, this is several billion dollars worth of reinvestment into the economy. If you were going to ban a major supplier because of your emotions and a recent streetcar fiasco (although as hard as it may be to believe, the same final delivery date for that has remained unchanged), you would essentially be relying on faith that another supplier would do a better job of delivering on a tender.

There's no point in furthering this discussion if you're going to be all emotional and irrational. Once again, I'm not basing my opinion on Bombardier on the epic streetcar FAIL, but a long history of their product not living up to expectations for the TTC. This goes deeper than delivery timelines too. A few billion dollars spread over multiple years is a drop in the bucket to the daily losses from having inefficient transportation infrastructure in Toronto. If a foreign operation can delivery better reliability for hundreds of millions less than that means we have more money to spend and maybe on more streetcars. I'm not the forumer that said, most likely facetiously, ban Bombardier. The bidding process should be about the transit needs. It shouldn't be complicated by make work arrangements that create monopolies. I do believe Bombardier can build product that meets expectations at a competitive price. They have before in other places. There just wasn't any reason in Ontario.