Lamenting the decline of the car

[megadude]

I am close to two people that had big pickups, regretted it, and changed over to something smaller. It's like despite common knowledge, they didn't realize how much gas they'd be guzzling when they're driving all over the GTA. Neither needed it for work.

One went to a small car, but sport version, and then went to the smaller Toyota pickup.

The other went to a small SUV/CUV but after three years went back to the big pickup, but Hemi executive edition. And he's the same guy that complains about how tight money is. But I do admit, the big pickup fits his personality and image. Not the douchey, wrap around Oakleys type, just more because of his thicker body type, goatee and appreciation for being outdoors (though he's not what you'd consider an outdoorsman). He's quite the opposite of a douche.

I wouldn't mind having a pickup, but only if I were loaded and could afford multiple cars.

My friend's coworkers at Daimler Chrysler Financial over 10 years ago got a nice deal on one of two lease options. I think there was too much inventory so they offered to any employee the chance to lease either a Crossfire roadster or a Dakota small pickup for like a hundred bucks a month for two years or something. By the following week like half the parking lot was those cars. There were guys in suit and tie driving pickups to work.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Me&You

For the typical family, I would imagine so. In an earlier iteration of our family, we considered a minivan.

However, we've since outgrown a minivan and now have a "hulking full size SUV" for family duties. When utilizing the full seating capacity of a minivan - which is kinda the point - there is surprising little utility left.

Beyond that, hauling in the upholstered interior of a minivan is different than the bed of a truck... Sure, you can move finished goods, but it's a whole 'nother ball game when you need to move actual "materials"... Been there, done that, would rather not again.

Agreed. Though how often does one haul "materials"? I mean, typically you only do big renos once every ten years at the most.

I live in a suburban SFH. The last "rough" thing I hauled was a sump pump to lower the water level in my pool. It would have fit in the trunk of a Honda Civic.

Other than that, if you need to haul materials once in a very rare blue moon, you're better with spending 350-500 to get the hitch option on an SUV or a minivan, and rent a trailer for a day.

[drew]

My VW Westfalia also doubles as a very practical utility vehicle. With the proper adjustments to the seats, you can take several 4x8 sized sheet goods, 12-foot long lumber. Pack it to the brim with sod, patio stones, small potted trees...

Trucks are definitely handy - but they come at a significant cost penalty, both in day to day operation and upfront cost when compared to even an AWD minivan.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

The North American truck situation has kind of an arms race feel to it; my sister just got some ridiculous SUV because she felt surrounded by too many others in traffic.

The only way to prevent this is building enough "tight" areas (streets and parking) so that these vehicles are just too much of a hassle for city people.

My apartment building in Kelowna was recently built (2018 or 19) and it has 'normal' (small?) parking spaces and it is hilarious how inappropriate big pickups are in our underground and surface lots. Two pickups simply cannot park beside each other and stay within the lines because the doors won't open. At all. It is normal to have a pickup stick out a solid meter and a half into the drive aisle, too, because they are so much longer than standard parking spaces.

There was a guy who lived here for a while with a F150 that was bright yellow and had a gigantic 'Deputy Diesel' banner on his rear window and stenciled on the top of the windshield. It was also impressively lifted with permanent running board steps and had extra wide chunky off-road tires and straight vertical exhaust pipes. Amazingly, it fit into the parking garage with mere centimeters of clearance and it simply required two spaces to be able to park and access without issue (obvious foreshadowing).

When I moved in, the building had only just opened in the preceding few months so the management company was still leasing it up. Presumably, the Deputy parked the way they did because the adjacent space wasn't assigned. Then the spot was assigned to me when I signed my lease and I took one look at it and politely put firmly requested an alternative space, preferably beside a wall or pillar (to minimize the number of cars that would park beside me; I got the far corner and my parking neighbour has a Mazda 3, so I seriously dodged a bullet).

Anyway, the Deputy constantly leaked oil and it ran into the driving lane and would get tracked all over the garage. The Deputy also blackened the white blown ceiling acoustic material on the garage ceiling above his straight vertical pipes. Did I mention they were seemingly un-muffled? It was deafening when they started up their war rig and the air would be filled with the stink of diesel. The management must have not been thrilled.

Not long after, a car was assigned the space beside the Deputy and the new tenant couldn't get another spot or didn't think to ask. I genuinely don't know how either party got into and out of their vehicles they were so close, and if the car was parked before the Deputy returned, I don't think it was possible for the truck to park thanks to its length, width, shit turning radius, and the tight geometry of the parking garage with its columns and drive aisle, etc. The Deputy disappeared not long after. I suspect they moved because they couldn't park their truck in the garage and the outdoor parking lot was even worse with narrower spots and proportionally more large vehicles (since they couldn't park underground).

FWIW, I have a Subaru Forester, so there's a limit to the size of stones I'm going to throw at glass houses. Yes, it's a compact SUV and it gets best-in-class mileage; my real world lifetime mileage on 135,000km+ is 7.5L/100km / 31.3 MPG, so not phenomenal so far as personal vehicles go, but solidly more in sedan territory than 'typical' SUVs. But it's more car than we necessarily need for daily life and a compact/hatchback would do the job for A to B errands and such. But I really like our car. I like the driving position, the incridible visibility, safety, great winter performance, comfort, reliability, etc., and we are routinely surprised how often we do use up all the cargo volume. Anyway, its the first (and last) ICE vehicle I've ever owned and when we eventually get a replacement/second vehicle there is no doubt it will be an EV SUV (likely the Tesla Model Y). This is all by way of saying that I try not to damn people for personal decisions like the car they drive, but I also see the glaring issues with owning and operating large vehicles in urban areas, not to mention the foolhardiness of buying a new high-spec truck for daily driving in a city.

[Acajack]

My home's garage is a tight fit, and a non-negotiable criterion for any vehicle is that it has to fit in the garage. No fit. No sale.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

My apartment building in Kelowna was recently built (2018 or 19) and it has 'normal' (small?) parking spaces and it is hilarious how inappropriate big pickups are in our underground and surface lots. Two pickups simply cannot park beside each other and stay within the lines because the doors won't open. At all. It is normal to have a pickup stick out a solid meter and a half into the drive aisle, too, because they are so much longer than standard parking spaces.

An easy solution to this is to just lower the height of the parking garage at the entrance to the extent that big pickups like this simply cannot enter. I recently ended up renting a Mitsubishi Outlander and I was picking it up at a parking garage downtown and the height restriction underground was a cool 6'. That vehicle barely made it in.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

My VW Westfalia also doubles as a very practical utility vehicle. With the proper adjustments to the seats, you can take several 4x8 sized sheet goods, 12-foot long lumber. Pack it to the brim with sod, patio stones, small potted trees...

You are a true Wolseley man!!!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

My apartment building in Kelowna was recently built (2018 or 19) and it has 'normal' (small?) parking spaces and it is hilarious how inappropriate big pickups are in our underground and surface lots. Two pickups simply cannot park beside each other and stay within the lines because the doors won't open. At all. It is normal to have a pickup stick out a solid meter and a half into the drive aisle, too, because they are so much longer than standard parking spaces.

There was a guy who lived here for a while with a F150 that was bright yellow and had a gigantic 'Deputy Diesel' banner on his rear window and stenciled on the top of the windshield. It was was impressively lifted with permanent running board steps and had extra wide chunky off-road tires and straight vertical exhaust pipes. Amazingly, it fit into the parking garage with mere centimeters of clearance and it simply required two parking spaces to be accessible without contortion (foreshadowing).

When I moved in, the building had only just opened in the preceding few months so the management company was still leasing it up. Presumably, the Deputy parked the way they did because the adjacent space wasn't assigned. Then it was assigned to me when I signed my lease and I took one look and politely put firmly requested an alternative space, preferably beside a wall or pillar (to minimize the number of cars that would park beside me; I got the far corner and my parking neighbour has a Mazda 3, so I seriously dodged a bullet). Anyway, the Deputy leaks litres of oil and it ran into the driving lane and would get tracked all over the garage. The Deputy also blackened the white blown ceiling acoustic material on the garage ceiling above his straight vertical pipes. Did I mention they were seemingly un-muffled? It was deafening when they started up their war rig and the air would be filled with the stink of diesel.

Not long after, a car was assigned the space beside the Deputy and the new tenant couldn't get another spot or didn't think to ask. I genuinely don't know how either party got into and out of their vehicles they were so close, and if the car was parked before the Deputy returned, I don't think it was possible for the truck to park thanks to its length, width, shit turning radius, and the tight geometry of the parking garage with its columns and drive aisle, etc. The Deputy disappeared not long after. I suspect they moved because they couldn't park their truck in the garage and the outdoor parking lot was even worse with narrower spots and proportionally more large vehicles (since they couldn't park underground).

This reminds me of my trip to Edmonton last spring... I took the family to the Royal Alberta Museum so we parked in the City Hall underground parkade. This is a early 90s building so clearly from a totally different automotive reality than Alberta ca. 2019. Super tight spots. Anyway, my rental Ford Taurus barely, just barely, fit into the space. It took a real effort to get the kids out of the backseat.

Some guy came by with a big pick up, didn't notice what it was, but it was a work truck of some kind with a company logo on it. He gingerly attempted to back into a space but ended up giving himself a metre long gash up against a pillar. I'm sure that was a fun one to explain back at the office!

I'm sure that must happen at least once a week in there.

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Agreed. Though how often does one haul "materials"? I mean, typically you only do big renos once every ten years at the most.

I live in a suburban SFH. The last "rough" thing I hauled was a sump pump to lower the water level in my pool. It would have fit in the trunk of a Honda Civic.

Other than that, if you need to haul materials once in a very rare blue moon, you're better with spending 350-500 to get the hitch option on an SUV or a minivan, and rent a trailer for a day.

I agree, but I still don't think an upholstered minivan interior is the silver bullet of practicality that it was presented as (this coming from my experience of hauling mulch, lumber and a pre-built cedar playhouse in side the back of my SUV ).

[WarrenC12]

Amazing how many people need 4x8' plywood. I don't think I've ever bought a sheet of that in my life.

[jawagord]

Some men see things as they are, and ask why (RFK). Others say why not!

You don't have to understand why, to acknowledge Trucks and SUV's are the vehicles of choice for a majority of Canadians. Personally I wouldn't want a truck, but I love my mid-sized SUV, will never own a car again.

Top 10 vehicle sales in Canada 2020:

1. Ford F-Series: 104,891, down 10 percent
2. Ram P/U: 63,237, down 16 percent
3. Toyota RAV4: 41,610, down 16 percent
4. GMC Sierra: 39,260, down 6 percent
5. Chevrolet Silverado: 38,085, down 9 percent
6. Honda Civic: 33,028, down 33 percent
7. Honda CR-V: 32,481, down 25 percent
8. Toyota Corolla: 25,879, down 31 percent
9. Hyundai Kona: 19,614, down 0.2 percent
10. Nissan Rogue: 18,410, down 38 percent

for comparison:

Tesla Model 3 – Canada Sales Figures: 3,350


https://driving.ca/ram/column/drivin...so-far-in-2020

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-...es-usa-canada/

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by jawagord

Tesla Model 3 – Canada Sales Figures: 3,350

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-...sales-figures/

"The Model 3 sedan, Tesla’s first affordable electric vehicle was reported to be eighth best-selling car in Canada in 2018 after selling 14,750 units during that calendar year."

Numbers from this site don't line up.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by esquire

You might only max out the cargo room 10 times a year. But even when it isn't full, it still has other benefits. Being more sure-footed on the highway is one of them. I have driven down highways in winter conditions in my SUV that I might not have even attempted in my old subcompact.

Record screeches to a halt...am I out of touch here? SUVs handle better and are safer at higher speeds? Huh?

Wasn't the knock against them that they roll too easily? Is that ancient history now? I've driven loaner SUVs from the dealership and I never felt that they handled better or felt safer than my sedan (admittedly, an IS350 "sports" sedan).

I've always been under the impression that a smaller car will handle better and just generally be safer to drive than an SUV or a pickup truck. Has the technology improved so much that that's a wash now?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Me&You

I agree, but I still don't think an upholstered minivan interior is the silver bullet of practicality that it was presented as (this coming from my experience of hauling mulch, lumber and a pre-built cedar playhouse in side the back of my SUV ).

I must admit to fucking up one year by sticking a natural Christmas tree in there without properly wrapping it...

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are they really that handy?

I recall that when I had a big pickup for a week (loaner from a dealer), one time my wife and I went to Costco and bought a bunch of stuff that we put in the back, and then we panicked because it started pouring rain on our way home. (We'd only had vehicles with enclosed storage before, so never thought of rain or snow.)

I guess you can address that with a cap (ugly) or cover (not bad) of some sort, but the majority of pickups I see don't have the back enclosed in any way.

I do have a tonneau cover now. But I went 5 years without one. Before that I had a tarp stashed behind the seat. One of the big plusses is that it can be "dirty space", things you could put in a car but it would be a hassle to clean out after.

But to expand, in my years of owning but not "needing" a truck, I've:

-Helped 2 friends, as well as myself move. Lots could go in cars, but lots of furniture can't. No rentals needed.
-delivered and picked up crates of live chickens for my dad.
-delivered and picked up wood and cabinets for my cabinetmaker brother.
-hauled dirt, gravel, yard waste for backyard renovation
-hauled away half a shed to the dump
-hooked it to the other half of the shed and pulled it upright - no more leaning shed.
-brought loads of firewood to the beach house.
-towed hay and grain wagons between our farm and my uncle's farm.
-towed a trailer to go buy a truck box for my project truck that isn't movable
-picked up furniture at the side of the road that wouldn't have fit in a car.
-pulled a lady out of a ditch where she slid off the road.
-transported all of our rugby supplies out of storage- post pads, tackle pads, water cooler/jugs, bins of jerseys, all in one load.
-left a traffic jam and found another way because I could drive over the curb
-skipped paying for hospital parking because I could drive over a curb - argue the ethics of that if you want, but that sure was handy.

Sure, you could take each of those and have a way that it could have been done without a truck. Mostly by taking more trips or renting/owning a trailer. The farm work could have been done with my dad's or uncle's trucks, but because I had one too it was easier to schedule things or divide and conquer. Owning a car and then renting or buying a trailer when I need it would be cheaper, but then I would need to schedule/coordinate the rental or have space to store a trailer. The trailer I used for the truck box was my dad's timber hay wagon -no rental needed, too heavy for a car to tow.

If I had to put it down to two key aspects that make it worth it, it's being able to help people, and the convenience of having those capabilities always and immediately available. I drove past a decent patio set someone put out for big garbage day - I didn't have to round up someone else for a truck or try to find a way to strap it down on a van roof, I just stopped and threw it in. My fiancée needed to coordinate an employee returning all their office setup and promotional items from home when they left the company - could spend a bunch of time coordinating a courier, or forcing the employee to do it, or my fiancée making three trips in her car - or, she just used my truck and got it done in an hour. I get to live my life in a freer way because I always have the option "just throw it in the back!"

There's just pure fun parts as well. When we go to the drive-in we put a futon mattress and a radio in the back, and it's like having our own living room. Same for those new drive in concerts where you have to stay "in your vehicle" - I still get to be outside, standing dancing etc. in the back of the truck. Not needed to do those activities, but "handy" to be able to have a better time.

The equation of what's worth it is totally different when you have a family whose needs have to be met - a minivan makes a lot of sense for a lot of families. But depending on lifestyle/what you do for work, a 5 seater truck can still be the most practical single vehicle for a lot of people to own.

I'm not a family though. I was a single guy who wanted a new car - I was never going to buy a minivan or a Corolla, if I didn't buy a truck I would have bought a Camaro. Instead, I still have a "sporty" ride with a V8, but all the capability I could ever need. And since neither my fiancée or I want kids, it continues to suit all my needs perfectly.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I've always been under the impression that a smaller car will handle better and just generally be safer to drive than an SUV or a pickup truck. Has the technology improved so much that that's a wash now?

Depends on what you consider safer. SUVs do roll more but if you're in an SUV or truck and you're in a collision with another vehicle you're more likely to survive the crash based on the sheer size of your vehicle. If you're in a Civic and run head-on with an Escalade guess which driver is more likely to survive.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Depends on what you consider safer. SUVs do roll more but if you're in an SUV or truck and you're in a collision with another vehicle you're more likely to survive the crash based on the sheer size of your vehicle. If you're in a Civic and run head-on with an Escalade guess which driver is more likely to survive.

Sure, I understand that, but esquire was talking about an SUV being more "sure-footed" on the highway than a subcompact car. That's the opposite of what I'd thought was the accepted wisdom.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Depends on what you consider safer. SUVs do roll more but if you're in an SUV or truck and you're in a collision with another vehicle you're more likely to survive the crash based on the sheer size of your vehicle. If you're in a Civic and run head-on with an Escalade guess which driver is more likely to survive.

In addition to that, it feels more comfortable driving an SUV on gravel or in snowy conditions... not necessarily on highways but in cities. You can get some pretty substantial snowdrifts in Winnipeg.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Sure, I understand that, but esquire was talking about an SUV being more "sure-footed" on the highway than a subcompact car. That's the opposite of what I'd thought was the accepted wisdom.

I can't comment on other vehicles, but our Subaru Forester is honestly quite exceptional in the snow. With good snow tires, and obviously, appropriate driving, I have never encountered a loss of traction or control in my fairly extensive winter driving over the last four years of ownership. The Forester certainly benefits from its boxer engine, which is vaguely suitcase-shaped and mounted far lower to the ground, resulting in an overall lower centre of gravity for the vehicle than a typical SUV. Couple that with a good traction control system and AWD, and it's as sure footed as I could ask. I don't imagine the ground clearance difference between it and a typical car is that much different (after all, the Forester is basically a Subaru Legacy with a taller cabin), but the extra bit of chassis lift and more forgiving approach and departure angles mean that slow-speed maneuvering in snow and ice can be done with less likelihood of making contact with snowbanks and ice.

One thing about the Forester that I love in winter is the effin' witchcraft of X-Mode. Until my current place, I've had to park outdoors. The lane of one place was just an uneven sheet of ice that was never plowed, another was on a side street where the City just piled up the plowed snow beside the car. I would put on X-Mode, put the car in low-D, and gently press the accelerator and it would just confidently drive out of the snowed-in parking space, over the snow barrier, onto bare ice, and let me drive away like on a summer's day. No wheelspin at all, no loss of traction, no sliding around, no issues when some wheels are on clear ground while others are in snow or on ice.

Once on my way I would shift to normal D drive and keep my speed under 40 and X-Mode would just do all the work to keep the car driving smoothly and under control. You can hear the traction control cackling away like an MRI and anti-lock brakes engaging and disengaging and power shifting between wheels faster than you can comprehend, but the car goes where you want and stays entirely under control. It also maintains your intended speed on descent with as much traction control and autobraking as needed to keep the needle pinned where you left it on your last accelerator input or maintains the level of braking from your last braking input. Likewise, on ascents, it does whatever wizardry is required to maintain traction and avoid rollback or fish-tailing as you make your way up the hill. Once you accelerate past 40, such as when you are on a main road that's been cleared and maintained, it just turns itself off. To reengage, slow to under 15 and you can start it up again. I'm sure X-Mode is available on Subaru car models, but it's probably a game-changer for their SUVs. <Jeremy Clarkson voice> It's just astonishing! How does it do that?!

[MolsonExport]

With the insane growth in market share taken up by pickup trucks (which themselves grow larger by the hour), this means that parking lot spaces will have to get bigger, as well as the area around these spaces for backing in, which means larger parking lots, wider roads, and more roads. And vehicle emissions will stay higher than they should be. It is crazy that people will drive a vehicle weighing more than 6000 lbs* just to haul themselves (weighing say, 200 lbs, although a lot of drivers are porkier than that).

Folks we are moving in the wrong direction. Not only in terms of the environment, but also in terms of how awful our urban fabrics have become due to the decades-long primacy of the automobile over the pedestrian, and now the primacy of the hulking pickup truck over the car.

*The 2020 Chevy Silverado 3500HD weighs about 6,231 lbs.
It's about half as heavy as an adult male African Bush elephant. Additionally, the Silverado is about two-fifths as heavy as a T-rex. A T-rex at a museum in Chicago is calculated to have been about 14,000 pounds while alive. That's a lot of weight packed into one animal. Although the Silverado is a fraction of that, it's clear that it's a heavy bit of vehicle.