West Gatineau LRT & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

So, let’s redevelop Sparks with surface tram (and more retail in the government-owned buildings!) and cafes.

This. I'm a proponent of the Sparks tunnel as it would mean greater reliability, flexibility for increased capacity in the future, and potential for greater integration between downtown O-Train stations and the STO tram. However, as a tunnel would likely be prohibitively expensive, I think the next best thing is a Sparks surface tram. Why create another car-free street directly adjacent to an existing one? As Richard and a few others already pointed out, there's much greater potential for street-level retail on Sparks than Wellington, not to mention less potential for disturbances from Parliament events and protests. Wouldn't a car-free Sparks and Wellington also make it extremely difficult and complicated for vehicles to access buildings north of Sparks for logistical purposes?

I'm really surprised a surface solution along Sparks isn't being discussed more. It could be the perfect remedy to breath life back into the street mall.

[Admiral Nelson]

Given trends in security elsewhere, I'm surprised the feds aren't more interested in making Wellington car/truck-free. I don't like to say it, but I fear the decision may be made overnight for us someday in the future, whether we like it or not.

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the idea. As illustrated by the rendering, it has the potential to get a far more attractive European-style city centre vibe than the noisy traffic sewer it is today.

[Harley613]

What about a simple cut and cover combined car/tram tunnel on Wellington in front of Parliament? An underground tram station integrated into the redevelopment of the block across from Parliament. Extended public space over the tunnel. No crippling traffic issues from closing Wellington to cars. Far lower cost than tunneling under Sparks. Win win win for everyone.

tunnel by harley613, on Flickr

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by Harley613

What about a simple cut and cover combined car/tram tunnel on Wellington in front of Parliament? An underground tram station integrated into the redevelopment of the block across from Parliament. Extended public space over the tunnel. No crippling traffic issues from closing Wellington to cars. Far lower cost than tunneling under Sparks. Win win win for everyone.

There is probably some secret tunnels under Wellington no? Especially to the Office of the Prime Minister.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

There is probably some secret tunnels under Wellington no? Especially to the Office of the Prime Minister.

I don't see why a 'secret tunnel' can't be moved and possibly improved under a shallow cut and cover tunnel during the construction

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by Harley613

I don't see why a 'secret tunnel' can't be moved and possibly improved under a shallow cut and cover tunnel during the construction

Hmm, fair enough!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Harley613

What about a simple cut and cover combined car/tram tunnel on Wellington in front of Parliament? An underground tram station integrated into the redevelopment of the block across from Parliament. Extended public space over the tunnel. No crippling traffic issues from closing Wellington to cars. Far lower cost than tunneling under Sparks. Win win win for everyone.

I am not sure how “simple” it is to cut and cover the limestone parliament hill is built on. Sure it’s easier than granite but it not as easy a clay.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I am not sure how “simple” it is to cut and cover the limestone parliament hill is built on. Sure it’s easier than granite but it not as easy a clay.

It's incredibly simple compared to a tunnel under most of the length of Sparks which is sitting on the same rock.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Harley613

It's incredibly simple compared to a tunnel under most of the length of Sparks which is sitting on the same rock.

I agree both are on the same type of rock. I disagree on the simplicity of cut and cover through bedrock.

Boring is much easier when dealing with solid rock than loose soil. Conversely cut and cover becomes more difficult with solid rock. With both methods you need to break up the rock and carry it away. With cut and cover you need to break up and dispose of enough rock for both the tunnel and a support structure on top that is strong enough to support the weight of the vehicles above it. With boring the rock above you provides most of the support and you only need enough support to prevent any shifting of the rock along fissures.

Then there is the issue of all the disruption to the street above when doing cut and cover, which is a whole other issue.

[J.OT13]

Ottawa-Gatineau Transit Loop has its own website:

https://www.transitloop.ca/

I think the loop proposal would be separate from the STO tram, forcing transfers. I support the loop, but it really should be part of the STO tram.

Side note: there was a discussion about the O-Train branding. The system is called O-Train, but most people refer to Confed as the LRT and the Trillium as the O-Train... Kind of frustrating.



Possible routes through the Market area, as proposed by Ottawa-Gatineau Transit Loop:

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree both are on the same type of rock. I disagree on the simplicity of cut and cover through bedrock.

Boring is much easier when dealing with solid rock than loose soil. Conversely cut and cover becomes more difficult with solid rock. With both methods you need to break up the rock and carry it away. With cut and cover you need to break up and dispose of enough rock for both the tunnel and a support structure on top that is strong enough to support the weight of the vehicles above it. With boring the rock above you provides most of the support and you only need enough support to prevent any shifting of the rock along fissures.

Then there is the issue of all the disruption to the street above when doing cut and cover, which is a whole other issue.

If we were able to dig through bedrock for the city spanning transitway trench, the Dow's Lake tunnel and rail trench beyond it, hundreds of parking garages, and even a set of 8 locks and a massive canal in the 1800's, then I am sure we could handle a block and a half.

What vehicle weight are you talking about? I suggested expanding the greenspace in front of Parliament over top.

[OTSkyline]

I really don't get the push for this transit loop.. It's not big enough to be very significant (like a circular route around central Ottawa), and it would add even more transfers to our already fragmented system.

Someone from Gatineau going to OttawaU, as example, would need to take:
Rapibuss to presumably expanded route to Alexandre Tache
Gatineau tram to Portage
Transit Loop to downtown or Rideau
Confed Line from downtown/Rideau eastward to OttawaU or anything else?

Who in their right mind would want to make 3 transfers?

I see this loop more of "it would be nice if..." or "wouldn't it be cute and convenient for tourists", but I fail to see the real value of such proposal...

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

So I was thinking - and I know this is transit fantasy territory - but what happens to the Rapibus after this gets built? I think its a valid question to ask to make sure the first phase gets built right.

I'm going to assume that T1 is chosen as the preferred alternative (I feel like that is the way the political winds are blowing, nevermind if it is the best alternative). I'm also going to assume it goes over budget but achieves full build-out anyway. Finally, I assume the O-train is extended ... perhaps to Montcalm, but who knows.

The question is - what happens when politicians and the public from east Gatineau start demanding LRT. What would happen to a converted Rapibus? What would be the ideal scenario?

I see 3 options (excuse the crude diagrams):

Option 1 - Interline with the Alymer LRT
This is the cheapest option, but it may run in to capacity issues, and it completely abandons Hull.


Option 2 - An incomplete "U" Loop

This would use the Alexandra Bridge to connect to the Alymer Line and form one very long Gatineau LRT line. Disadvantages are - the long line could have issues with the trains bunching (although I'm sure there are ways to have fixed dwell times to avoid bunching), and trips like UQO to Les Galeries de Hull would be a very long train ride (partially alleviated by transferring to the Trillium Line for those that don't mind the double transfer)


Option 3 - Crossed Loop
In this option the east Gatineau LRT would use Allumettieres and Maisonneuve to cross the Alymer LRT at Maisonneuve and Laurier. The Alymer line would be re-directed to cross at Alexandra - and they would again connect in downtown Ottawa to form one giant Gatineau LRT line. With this alternative the rider has an option to transfer at Maissonneuve and Laurier if you don't want to take the trip through Ottawa... or say you were coming from Alymer to Lyon Station area in Ottawa, you could transfer to use the Portage Bridge rather than the Alexandra Bridge.


What do you all think? I feel that Option 2 would be fine, but Option 3 would have some big advantages. Either way - if Gatineau goes with H1 or H2, then converts Rapibus to LRT - it may force the BRT portion from Alymer or Plateau to transfer, which not ideal. I think T1 might be the most "future proof".

I'm going to resurrect this in-light of the loop discussion. A loop on its own would be aweful. However, A loop integrated with long-term plans for conversion of the Rapibus corridor per Option 2 and 3 of the quoted post... I think that makes a bit of sense.

The advocates of the loop are just looking at this from a tourist/city-building perspective though, which is not how you build an effective transit system.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I really don't get the push for this transit loop.. It's not big enough to be very significant (like a circular route around central Ottawa), and it would add even more transfers to our already fragmented system.

Someone from Gatineau going to OttawaU, as example, would need to take:
Rapibuss to presumably expanded route to Alexandre Tache
Gatineau tram to Portage
Transit Loop to downtown or Rideau
Confed Line from downtown/Rideau eastward to OttawaU or anything else?

Who in their right mind would want to make 3 transfers?

I see this loop more of "it would be nice if..." or "wouldn't it be cute and convenient for tourists", but I fail to see the real value of such proposal...

I would think that any sensible implementation of a transit loop would just be an extension of the Gatineau LRT.

So Rapibus -> Gatineau LRT/Loop to Rideau-ish? -> Walk/Take the Confederation Line 1 stop

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I really don't get the push for this transit loop.. It's not big enough to be very significant (like a circular route around central Ottawa), and it would add even more transfers to our already fragmented system.

Someone from Gatineau going to OttawaU, as example, would need to take:
Rapibuss to presumably expanded route to Alexandre Tache
Gatineau tram to Portage
Transit Loop to downtown or Rideau
Confed Line from downtown/Rideau eastward to OttawaU or anything else?

Who in their right mind would want to make 3 transfers?

I see this loop more of "it would be nice if..." or "wouldn't it be cute and convenient for tourists", but I fail to see the real value of such proposal...

If the Aylmer tram crosses Portage, loops around Ottawa and goes back to Aylmer via the Alexandra, the it's fine. Having that loop also doubles the capacity of the Ottawa section of the Aylmer tram. But no, I would not support an independent loop.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ottawa-Gatineau Transit Loop has its own website:

https://www.transitloop.ca/

Quite the impressive list of Supporters.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think the loop proposal would be separate from the STO tram, forcing transfers. I support the loop, but it really should be part of the STO tram.

What makes you think that? The first question in the FAQ is:

• How is this different from what is being proposed by the STO?
  

The Supporters of the Loop back the STO and the City of Gatineau’s plan to connect Gatineau’s tram system with downtown Ottawa and Ottawa's LRT.

The Ottawa-Gatineau Transit Loop is a vision that complements Gatineau's 26 km streetcar project, with the addition of 2.7 km of rail track to complete a loop circuit between downtown Ottawa and Gatineau.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Side note: there was a discussion about the O-Train branding. The system is called O-Train, but most people refer to Confed as the LRT and the Trillium as the O-Train... Kind of frustrating.

Give it time. People will adjust.

[OCCheetos]

Watson thinks the loop is an "interesting idea".
https://twitter.com/KatePorterCBC/st...98225736589315

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Harley613

If we were able to dig through bedrock for the city spanning transitway trench, the Dow's Lake tunnel and rail trench beyond it, hundreds of parking garages, and even a set of 8 locks and a massive canal in the 1800's, then I am sure we could handle a block and a half.

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I just said the savings are minimal for cut and cover compared to boring and you end up with a lot more disruption on the surface with cut and cover.

What vehicle weight are you talking about? I suggested expanding the greenspace in front of Parliament over top.

So you want to burry the tram and close Wellington to traffic? I don't see that being a financially viable option regardless of the tunneling technology.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Quite the impressive list of Supporters.

Very true. Former politicians are often ignored, even Boards of Commerce, but active developers like Desjardin (Brigil) and Westeinde (Windmill/Theia) could be influential.

What makes you think that?

The way they speak about it and the map they provide. But yes, that quote suggests otherwise.

Give it time. People will adjust.

I certainly hope so.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Watson thinks the loop is an "interesting idea".
https://twitter.com/KatePorterCBC/st...98225736589315

But then he says Stage 3 is his priority. Watson's mind is often narrowly focused on his own pet projects and dismisses ideas proposed by other people.

McKenna's support might be more noteworthy:

https://www.facebook.com/boucletrans...2082562446981/