Shift: London's Rapid Transit Initiative

[inimrepus]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

They don't need an overpass for a BRT at Richmond.

The route could simply takes Piccadilly and then merge onto the corridor itself. They would need BRT bridges over Oxford and to build the BRT roadway beside the rail line but that could easily be done without impacting CP operations.

CP/CN rarely have a problem with other agencies using their corridors as long as it doesn't effect their operations. GO and Vancouver's West Coast Express use their actual train tracks and for that matter so does VIA. I don't think they would have any problem using the corridor because it's wide enough.

You are really over simplifying this. Taking Piccadilly doesn't make sense, it is north of the tracks but the busses would be coming from the south so they would still need to go over the tracks to get there. You are also essentially talking about running a 2 way road beside the tracks since busses need to go in both directions, there isn't space for this because you also need to account for spacing between the tracks and the road which is legally required.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by inimrepus

I remember reading an article asking this a few years ago (maybe 5 or 6). The short answer is that while it is technically possible, it can't realistically happen. It would be major construction that would disrupt all current trains. There isn't enough space beside the current tracks to build a raised track at the same time as operating the current tracks. Because of this they would need to do something similar to what they are doing with the new wharncliffe bridge where they are actually building a temporary bridge beside the current one while doing the construction for the permanent new bridge.

The reason this becomes unrealistic here is because it would need to be done for a much longer distance. Since trains can't deal with quick changes in elevation they would need to at minimum build or rebuild the crossings at Richmond, St. George St, Talbot, Oxford, Thames River, and Gunn St.

The bold part, you are referring to the CP bridge replacement a few years ago north of Oxford I assume? The CN replacement isn't doing a temporary bridge as last I recall. They are building new beside the old and then sliding it into place over a weekend.

In addition to those street crossings you mentioned, there are several crossings to the east of Richmond that would also be affected by the grade change. I doubt it could be brought back down to current grade before Waterloo, so you end up with Waterloo, Pall Mall and probably Colborne.

[ssiguy]

So how exactly are they going to go West & North?

BRT lanes down Oxford will not be particularly fast and will be very disruptive to build. Of course there is also the problem of getting to Oxford. Wharncliffe is not at all a wide road so adding BRT lanes is going to be very problematic.

There is more than enough room for a BRT corridor along the tracks and I don't see many other options.

[Djeffery]

The cost to replace the bridges to make them wide enough for 2 lanes of traffic to go along with the rail, not to mention the cost to widen the rest of the corridor (which is mostly elevated) would likely far surpass the original entire project cost

[inimrepus]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

The bold part, you are referring to the CP bridge replacement a few years ago north of Oxford I assume? The CN replacement isn't doing a temporary bridge as last I recall. They are building new beside the old and then sliding it into place over a weekend.

In addition to those street crossings you mentioned, there are several crossings to the east of Richmond that would also be affected by the grade change. I doubt it could be brought back down to current grade before Waterloo, so you end up with Waterloo, Pall Mall and probably Colborne.

I was referring to the CN replacement, I thought I had heard that they were doing a temporary bridge but I could be wrong about that.

[jammer139]

The grade of the CP main line is fixed and is not changing due to a number of basic factors.


1. the CP bridge crossing the Thames just north of Oxford.
2. the 5 meter embankment that the track is built upon that runs to just east of Wonderland
3. the right of way is too narrow on either side of the embankment to build a BRT roadway.


This thread on using the CP right of way is a waste of time and is simply not an option.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by inimrepus

I was referring to the CN replacement, I thought I had heard that they were doing a temporary bridge but I could be wrong about that.

It could have changed, but as I recall, this was the main reason they needed Nan's house. To build the new bridge on her property and the one on the west side and have the cranes set up to move it into place.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

The cost to replace the bridges to make them wide enough for 2 lanes of traffic to go along with the rail, not to mention the cost to widen the rest of the corridor (which is mostly elevated) would likely far surpass the original entire project cost

The entire section from Platt's Lane to Wonderland is at grade so the only real bridges will be required over Oxford & Western Road. There is more than enough room.

Will it cost more? Yes but I don't think getting the extra money out Ottawa or QP would be much of a problem if for no other reason than Hamilton just got a $1.1 billion cheque for it's LRT.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The entire section from Platt's Lane to Wonderland is at grade so the only real bridges will be required over Oxford & Western Road. There is more than enough room.

Will it cost more? Yes but I don't think getting the extra money out Ottawa or QP would be much of a problem if for no other reason than Hamilton just got a $1.1 billion cheque for it's LRT.

It's not at grade though, it's an elevated berm (that yes, is less elevated the further west you go) that is nowhere near wide enough to add a couple BRT lanes. You would no doubt also have to provide sound barriers along that whole stretch, especially with a new subdivision going in immediately west of Cherryhill. You would need new bridges at Platts, Wharncliffe, Gunn, Talbot and no small cheap feat which is the bridge over Oxford and the river, which is probably at least 1.5x the Guy Lombardo bridge.

[ssiguy]

I know the tracks are elevated but there is more than enough level land beside them for BRT lanes. It would require a lot of tree destruction but at the same time no land acquisition and housing/commercial business destruction. Also, there would be exceptionally little impact during construction as it is basically going thru virgin territory and not taking up any road space all of which makes it politically more advantageous.

Using the corridor with overshoots down Platt's Lane {Western} and Wonderland and Hyde Park would make it an incredibly fast trip to downtown. Isn't that what this is all about..........RAPID transit?

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I know the tracks are elevated but there is more than enough level land beside them for BRT lanes. It would require a lot of tree destruction but at the same time no land acquisition and housing/commercial business destruction. Also, there would be exceptionally little impact during construction as it is basically going thru virgin territory and not taking up any road space all of which makes it politically more advantageous.

Using the corridor with overshoots down Platt's Lane {Western} and Wonderland and Hyde Park would make it an incredibly fast trip to downtown. Isn't that what this is all about..........RAPID transit?

At the same time I see no reason why CN and CP couldn’t explore consolidating tracks through London in order to free up the CP corridor. Much of the CN corridor has the space for an extra track from Lobo to London Junction.

CN and CP sharing corridors is not unprecedented. Just a few blocks from where I live in BC, there are tracks shared by not only CN and CP, but also BNSF and a local short line railroad.

If this ever happened, CP would need to relocate its yard out of the city.

[ssiguy]

^Exactly.

CN & CP may be bullies they conversely they tend be relatively receptive to sharing their network space for transit when requested. GO, WCE, and EXO all use currently active rail corridors owned by CN/CP. In fact they will go out of their way to help if it reaps them some money ie selling tracks to GO. Also, if the city were to use the Piccadilly corridor west of Richmond, it travels south of the rail tracks and then the city could simply extend Piccadilly as a 2-way bus only {with bike/Sidewalks} route with a new bridge over Oxford and take it to Western & Platt's Lane for the first segment. That would vastly increase time travel to Western & Masonville with BRT lanes all the way north. It would also serve the high density Cherryhill which is home to a lot of seniors & student ie transit users. The system could be further west to Wonderland & Hyde Park as needed. Such a proposal wouldn't need CP approval but even if the city needed to buy some of the corridor itself, it would still be relatively small amount.

If the London needs to use transit money least they lose it from QP & Ottawa, this would be the very best use of it.

Such a proposal would get London a crucial transportation corridor which it is going to need as the city grows. Next one needed would be the old London/PS line.

[Djeffery]

Piccadilly is north of the CP at Richmond, then you go over the tracks at St George and pick up Piccadilly again. So you have to deal with that crossing. And then where do you propose this bridge over Oxford goes? Are you buying up all the businesses along Piccadilly west of Talbot to curve it over to where the CP bridge is? And then buying all the businesses along the south side of the CP line to fit this BRT route in? How far do you think $120 million goes?

[ssiguy]

$120 million goes a very long way. This would be the beginning of a spine network. It would secure the corridor and even if it just made it to Western Road it would provide much faster and reliable service to UWO. As money becomes available the system can be extended with BRT lanes up thru Western to Masonville and the Transitway itself extended further west to Wonderland and Hyde Park.

[TallerIsBetter]

The obvious solution for any common sense North solution is go up Wharncliffe/Western. Really common sense solution is do that AND put Wharncliffe UNDER Oxford or vice versa.

It might mean limiting turning, but traffic patterns would adjust.

If you do that it doesn't matter that some short sections of the Wharncliffe route won't have dedicated bus lanes.

That would make the biggest difference in moving people regardless if they are in ICE, EV, or PT.

It all about throughput and minimizing stop time for all modes

[inimrepus]

Originally Posted by TallerIsBetter

The obvious solution for any common sense North solution is go up Wharncliffe/Western. Really common sense solution is do that AND put Wharncliffe UNDER Oxford or vice versa.

I can't tell what you are suggesting. Are you suggesting busses take Queens/Riverside to Wharncliffe then go north, or take Oxford to Wharncliffe?

[ssiguy]

Wharncliff yes but I wouldn't go up Western but rather swing over to Platts Lane and then head north as it would hit the huge population centre of Cherryhill which has a lot of transit dependent people...........students and seniors.

[inimrepus]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Wharncliff yes but I wouldn't go up Western but rather swing over to Platts Lane and then head north as it would hit the huge population centre of Cherryhill which has a lot of transit dependent people...........students and seniors.

Platts Lane isn't a good choice for an express bus route, it isn't even wide enough for 1 vehicle to go in each direction at one point.

Also going up Wharncliffe means that the express route will miss a huge portion of Richmond Row which is a major place for people to take the bus.

[ssiguy]

Ideally I wouldn't go Wharncliff but Piccadilly with a new bridge over the the Thames running parallel to the CP track but no crossing of it and then use the corridor to stop at Western, Platt's Lane , Wonderland, and Hyde Park with BRT buses merging off those stops and heading north on all of them with BRT lanes.

[inimrepus]

The east leg of BRT is starting soon https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...link-from-core