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  #1041  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by EdFromOttawa View Post
Really? you'd go there any day?

What if the day in question was one where there was no event happening at the arena, you don't feel like shopping or eating (or can't afford the probably high prices of the area), and don't want to lie in a park..?

What exactly would you do in that situation?

...seriously name me one thing that isn't equivalent (okay maybe the tiny strip of land around the aqueduct) in Devcore's.
Yes, I would go there for the urban experience alone. Even when there isn't any set programming, I love to go to Confederation Park, the Market, or walk around the CBD just for the urban vibe. I love Montreal for the same reason.

No I don't always have disposable income for shopping and restaurants, but in a city this size, and Ilumination's plans with double the housing and more office space and street level retail, having 170-180 events a year, at the arena, I'm confident the area will never run out of patrons.

What does IllummiNATION offer that Devecore does not; as mentioned by LeadingEdgeBoomer, it has Affordable housing, Ability Centre and Canada House. It buries the Confederation Line, that would otherwise create a physical barrier between the north and south parcels, much more housing and office space, it goes much further in protecting view planes and connecting with its surroundings. IllumiNATION's goal is to create an urban experience, answer the needs of the community, not try to be everything to everyone by cramming 20 museums and attractions that will only be open 9 to 5 for the most part.

Another blow to Devcore is that of its relatively few housing units, many of them are student housing (all but empty 4-5 months of the year) and retirement residences (not the type of people who go out very often).

Oh, and one more thing IllumiNATION has that Devcore does not; a NHL Hockey Team.
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  #1042  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 5:53 PM
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RendezVous Lebreton gets more support


David Reevely

First posted: Friday, January 29, 2016 09:36 PM EST | Updated: Friday, January 29, 2016 10:53 PM EST


Rack up another backer for the RendezVous LeBreton proposal.

United Way Ottawa is encouraging its supports to have their say on the competing bids with a message that touts the RendezVous pitch for social housing and a centre for disabled athletes.

“Affordable housing is in short supply in Ottawa,” the Friday-morning message signed by United Way president Michael Allen says in bold type. “It is a significant issue for our community and a priority for United Way.”

An “Abilities Centre,” modelled on a facility in Whitby, and another part of the bid from the Senators, would “position Ottawa as a leader for inclusion of those who live with disabilities — another important focus for us.

“At United Way, we want to ensure the redevelopment of LeBreton addresses community priorities like affordable housing and accessibility.”

The Senators and their owner Eugene Melnyk have a multibillion-dollar proposal for the Flats that includes a new arena, massive condo and commercial developments and a new library. They’re up against a bid from a consortium called the DCDLS Group, which would include all those things plus museums and other cultural institutions.

Allen said in an interview that this isn’t meant to be read as lobbying on the Senators’ behalf. But their bid has specific elements that address things the United Way thinks are important.

The DCDLS Group bid is also full of promise but it’s vaguer, Allen said. “There’s room, there’s flexibility, there’s space for this kind of thing as we move forward. I’m sure that’s true,” he said.

The United Way’s note is just the latest in a stream of encouragement for the Senators’ bid.

Within minutes of the two plans’ release on Tuesday afternoon, Innes Coun. Jody Mitic said he favoured the Senators’ bid because it was the only one guaranteed to include the Senators (owner Eugene Melnyk says his team can only play in a building he owns). Nepean-Carleton MPP Lisa MacLeod instantly tweeted her support, too.

The next day, both Ottawa’s and Ontario’s leading business lobby groups signed up with the Sens, too.

“After careful analysis and based on the comprehensive presentations made by the two proponents, the Ottawa Chamber of Commerce identified the RendezVous LeBreton Group proposal as the most viable and likely to be realized,” said a joint statement from the Ottawa and Ontario chambers of commerce. (Senators president Cyril Leeder is on the board of the Ottawa group.)

http://www.ottawasun.com/2016/01/29/...s-more-support
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  #1043  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 6:48 PM
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The Illumination proposal also lacks anything of national significance. A hockey arena, a civic library, a ton of condos (does Ottawa even need this many condos?). It would still be much better than the current development direction but it's not really appropriate for the site.
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  #1044  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Temperance View Post
The Illumination proposal also lacks anything of national significance. A hockey arena, a civic library, a ton of condos (does Ottawa even need this many condos?). It would still be much better than the current development direction but it's not really appropriate for the site.
You right.Devcore will bring more pride to Ottawa and more life to downtown.
Actually,there nothing happening in downtown.Re-imagined must win.
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  #1045  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 8:09 PM
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Personally, I would like to see RV win this. I'd rather see a mixed-use community than a community and a tourist park completely separated. RV gives the area much more potential for organic development, and will make sure all of Lebreton is active and exciting. Devcore just hasn't done enough to ensure the flats will be exciting.
One thing I hope the winner is willing to work on is improving the Booth Street pedestrian experience, on both sides of the road. It is currently not a pleasant place to walk, but connecting Zibi with Lebreton and Mechanicsville/Chinatown in a pedestrian friendly way is necessary in my mind.
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  #1046  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 9:08 PM
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List of things I would like added to the RV proposal:

Asticou Sector
Put these on the "park" land between planned Asticou buildings and War Museum, building relatively low profile buildings beside and above SJAM, and cover with contoured and landscaped park suitable for things like Bluesfest (not necesarily one flat featureless expanse) and even include a bandshell and some event-based access to washroom facilities. The overall effect should be gently rolling hills that integrate well with the War Museum setting. Height increase should be limited to approx 10 meters. if a few more meters are needed then perhaps raise SJAM west of Nepean Bay Inlet as it passes over rail tracks to preserve sight-line to Parliamentary District.
- Aquarium
- First Nations Museum

Lebreton Quartier Sector

Leverage the presence of the existing Activities Centre and Sensplex to enhance the sector and convert it into an Activity District with multiple options for fun activity. These would be placed in podiums of highrises, with large elements like the Water Park filling most of the internal/non-ground-floor space of a podium, and smaller elements clustered together to nearly fill the non-street front space of other podiums. Wherever possible, ground floor pedestrian facing frontage should be active with a variety of retail uses, but some visibility into internal activities may be attractive in animating, contrasting with retail, and drawing interest.
- Indoor Recreation Attractions
-- Water Park (waves, simulated surfing, slides, rides, etc.)
-- Sky Diving
-- Skate Park
-- Laser Tag
-- Climbing Walls
-- Skyzone (Trampoline)
- SciTech Museum Exploratorium Annex
- Beach on east shore of Nepean Bay Inlet with small strip of 4-5 terraced cafes/restaurants between the inlet and Preston -- Bay configured and maintained as a skating pond in the winter.

Pimisi Sector

- Grocery Store (in base of one of the podiums)
- DCDLS library design
- Microbrewery
(I could see this sector becoming a bit of an adult-oriented playground, maybe a boardgaming store, dinner theatre, and bars and restaurants overlooking the aqueduct. Adults are happy to look at water; kids want to be in it. The library is a bit of an all-ages site, but the library may want to have a Children's Library annex a few blocks west in the Activity District. An art gallery wouldn't be out of place here either.

Bayview or Pimisi Sector
- YM/YWCA (base of one of the podiums? Leave most frontage to other uses but have some street presence)
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  #1047  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 9:26 PM
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Regardless, Ottawa is Ottawa and only has a certain capacity to absorb more high density housing units. So if you think more housing units is better, it means that you will be waiting longer for the completed project. Just look at the Claridge plan on Lebreton and how slow this has evolved. It is going to take years for this to be completed. Just think what thousands more units will do.

This is why I prefer a more mixed use community. That and the fact that we have only built one major new tourist attraction in the downtown area since the 1980s, the War Museum and it is time for more active attractions that Ottawa is mostly missing.

Regarding the Canadensis walk, I sure hope that the people behind it will understand that you have to consider the Ottawa climate in plant selection. And no, more 200 species will grow here. I would say thousands.

I think the reaction to the burying LRT will encourage this to be part of any final plan. Both of the proposals are just that, proposals, and there will be changes, maybe big changes.

It is important that a significant portion of either project be built in a fairly short period of time and in a contiguous block, closer to downtown. If almost all of Lebreton remains a construction zone for decades, how can this be attractive to anybody? To a great degree, this can explain the failure of the Claridge project.
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  #1048  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 9:55 PM
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Why pinning all our civic hopes on LeBreton Flats is dangerous

David Reevely, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: January 30, 2016 | Last Updated: January 30, 2016 8:42 AM EST


Both groups asking to redevelop LeBreton Flats are promising to do something almost impossible: Build a successful new neighbourhood all at once.

The world’s great places have emerged over decades and centuries, one decision at a time, a layer after layer of history, economic cycles and evolving tastes, failures and repurposings. It accretes. Replicating all the complex relationships underneath a working neighbourhood all in one go might not be impossible but it’s very close.

Lord knows people try, with projects big and small. My colleague Andrew Cohen sometimes laments that at Lansdowne, we didn’t try to build something that would do for Ottawa what a spectacular Guggenheim Museum did for Bilbao. Well, here’s another chance, right? The LeBreton Re-Imagined plan for LeBreton in particular, the one from the consortium led by Devcore, is full of museums and cultural buildings, each of which would be its own opportunity for greatness.

Bilbao, on the north coast of Spain not far from the French border, was a fading industrial port in 1990 — think of it sort of like Hamilton, but with fewer people. In an effort to turn it into a centre for cultural tourism, the Basque government made a Hail-Mary pass, spending a ton of money on this new art museum. They struck a unique deal with the Guggenheim Foundation to open a branch museum in Bilbao as long as the government paid for pretty much everything. They hired star architect Frank Gehry and spared no expense to build one of the world’s great galleries.

It worked. Bilbao has been revitalized, its character changed. Most people, if they’ve heard of Bilbao at all, have heard of it because of its Guggenheim museum. One megaproject did it.

The thing is, Bilbao’s Guggenheim is practically a wonder of the world. As a piece of modern civic architecture so phenomenal that people visit just to look at it from the outside, it’s in a class with the Sydney Opera House and … er, the Sydney Opera House. Museum directors and politicians the world over have tried to copy it, blowing billions of dollars and once-in-a-lifetime redevelopment opportunities and not coming close to duplicating the Bilbao Effect.

The landscape is littered with failed clones. Seattle’s rock-and-roll museum (they even hired Frank Gehry to design it). A new pavilion for the Denver art museum. A pop-music centre in Sheffield, England. An art gallery in Helsinki. In Toronto, there’s the crystal addition to the Royal Ontario Museum, which cost $135 million, is a lousy exhibition space and has not produced the attendance bump the museum was counting on. Architecture critic Witold Rybczynski calls it the Bilbao Anomaly, such a fluke it was.

If you build it, they will not necessarily come. They usually don’t.

This is just for single buildings, let alone whole districts. For a failure on a large scale, go to Montreal and look at its old Olympics venues east of downtown, all built at once. A (now little-used) stadium, Biodome and planetarium, Insectarium, botanical gardens, a small arena and a soccer stadium. Lots of attractions, many of which work individually but together make a weird jumble, big buildings with few accesses and nothing much going on between them. In decades, they’ve done little for the neighbourhoods that surround them.

The attractions area of the Montreal group’s proposal for LeBreton Flats looks worryingly like this part of their city. The group led by the Ottawa Senators doesn’t have this problem – but then it doesn’t show very much imagination at all.

The National Capital Commission’s first attempt to rebuild the Flats was a well-intended effort to deal with the all-at-once problem. The commission thought small: it set out to sell its land one piece at a time, hoping it could simulate the organic growth of a neighbourhood by being patient and letting the early sales inform later ones years later. But, desperate not to screw it up, the NCC put so many restrictions on what could happen on the first piece of land that it ended up with just one bidder and some pretty ordinary condos.

Now the commission’s going the other way. Here’s pretty much all the land left at LeBreton Flats, the commission says. Rock our socks.

It’ll either be a grand success or a grand failure. For a project like this, there isn’t much in between.

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twitter.com/davidreevely

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...s-is-dangerous
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  #1049  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Why pinning all our civic hopes on LeBreton Flats is dangerous

David Reevely, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: January 30, 2016 | Last Updated: January 30, 2016 8:42 AM EST


<snip>

Now the commission’s going the other way. Here’s pretty much all the land left at LeBreton Flats, the commission says. Rock our socks.

It’ll either be a grand success or a grand failure. For a project like this, there isn’t much in between.

[email protected]
twitter.com/davidreevely

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...s-is-dangerous
Reevely is correct; the Devcore bid looks worryingly like it would have the potential to become another underused, windswept waterfront full of white elephants, a cross between Sparks Street and Montreal's olympic park.

IllumiNATION lacks imagination, but by playing it safe, its success is more realistic. It has tons of condos, plus affordable housing, office space, a huge new central arena and central library... it'll have no problems attracting the retail needed on the ground levels of the high rise buildings. They'll get plenty of restaurants and other amenities, plus a Farm Boy too, I bet.

But if the IllumiNATION proposal wins... which it just might... Ottawa could be looking back in 30 years saying, "we played it too safe (again), we should've gone with more vision..." That seems to be such an Ottawa mantra, and we need to get over it. It's up to the private sector to fund these megaprojects, because goodness knows, public money is never going to have the sort of reach it would take to create something super ambitious. Public money can't take vast risks.

I have faith in the businesses that would want to locate to the downtown waterfront area. I predict the ground level retail/commercial spaces will be more creative and impressive than the average suburban shopping centre. We might see a few rabbits getting drawn from the hat yet.

It will most certainly be a big improvement over Place du Portage.... which is like something post-apocalyptic at street level. Not much to look at from across the river, either.
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  #1050  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 11:43 PM
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To tell you the truth... I really don't care which project gets chosen. As long as the NIMBYs don't delay it. Keep Clive Doucette and the Friends of Landsdowne far away from this project.

JT
The local chapters of NIMBY International are already circling. Just read the comments on Darwin's blog. Or, read Darwin's blog.
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  #1051  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 11:45 PM
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It will most certainly be a big improvement over Place du Portage.... which is like something post-apocalyptic at street level. Not much to look at from across the river, either.
One hopes some of those buildings will, soonish, reach the end of their design lives, and, rather than be refitted, be imploded with spectacular results.
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  #1052  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 12:03 AM
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Reevely is correct; the Devcore bid looks worryingly like it would have the potential to become another underused, windswept waterfront full of white elephants, a cross between Sparks Street and Montreal's olympic park.

IllumiNATION lacks imagination, but by playing it safe, its success is more realistic. It has tons of condos, plus affordable housing, office space, a huge new central arena and central library... it'll have no problems attracting the retail needed on the ground levels of the high rise buildings. They'll get plenty of restaurants and other amenities, plus a Farm Boy too, I bet.

But if the IllumiNATION proposal wins... which it just might... Ottawa could be looking back in 30 years saying, "we played it too safe (again), we should've gone with more vision..." That seems to be such an Ottawa mantra, and we need to get over it. It's up to the private sector to fund these megaprojects, because goodness knows, public money is never going to have the sort of reach it would take to create something super ambitious. Public money can't take vast risks.

I have faith in the businesses that would want to locate to the downtown waterfront area. I predict the ground level retail/commercial spaces will be more creative and impressive than the average suburban shopping centre. We might see a few rabbits getting drawn from the hat yet.

It will most certainly be a big improvement over Place du Portage.... which is like something post-apocalyptic at street level. Not much to look at from across the river, either.
Nothing in the Devcore proposal has a big footprint or particularly needs to be at Lebreton. If some of the partners want to build some of these things they still can.
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  #1053  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 12:16 AM
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Honestly stay too conservative is not good.If illumination win, Ottawa will still be retarded compared other in the world. Ottawa is a G7 capital. Plus the architecture of illumination is very poor. I want to see beautiful architecure in the capital of my country.It will change nothing to debate because only 5 people will decide the fate of the project.
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  #1054  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 5:14 AM
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The fact that we here are pretty split on which one is better at least says one thing: they're both strong proposals.
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  #1055  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 6:25 AM
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The fact that we here are pretty split on which one is better at least says one thing: they're both strong proposals.
Facts

Also for those who have Facebook DO NOT READ THE COMMENTS regarding these proposals. They will frustrate you.
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  #1056  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 7:07 AM
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Regarding the Canadensis walk, I sure hope that the people behind it will understand that you have to consider the Ottawa climate in plant selection. And no, more 200 species will grow here. I would say thousands.
Devcore said 200, so thousands may be a bit of a high estimate.
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  #1057  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Temperance View Post
The Illumination proposal also lacks anything of national significance. A hockey arena, a civic library, a ton of condos (does Ottawa even need this many condos?). It would still be much better than the current development direction but it's not really appropriate for the site.
Cities grow. Not that I have made up my mind on either of these proposals but the RV one is to be developed over a period of 20 years. In population numbers, that translates to 300,000 new citizens to the region by 2036, very conservatively based on the low end of the recent growth rates. BTW, there are about 5000 new homes being built every year in Ott-Gat. My opinion on this is that I'd rather see densely built cities than endless suburbs of bungalows, and lord knows we have lots of that. It's high time for Ottawa to bring more people in its inner city. I'm not crazy about huge condo towers but do like the 5-10 story range; I'd love to see more proposals like Central 1, 2, and 3.
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  #1058  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 9:52 AM
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Cities grow. Not that I have made up my mind on either of these proposals but the RV one is to be developed over a period of 20 years. In population numbers, that translates to 300,000 new citizens to the region by 2036, very conservatively based on the low end of the recent growth rates. BTW, there are about 5000 new homes being built every year in Ott-Gat. My opinion on this is that I'd rather see densely built cities than endless suburbs of bungalows, and lord knows we have lots of that. It's high time for Ottawa to bring more people in its inner city. I'm not crazy about huge condo towers but do like the 5-10 story range; I'd love to see more proposals like Central 1, 2, and 3.
Fair point. It does seem like there is a glut of these mega proposals (Windmill, Zibi, Lebreton) but they are spread out over 20-30 years and it is good that more construction is taking place within the city boundaries. I wonder if the demand will be there in the short term though.
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  #1059  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 12:43 PM
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Fair point. It does seem like there is a glut of these mega proposals (Windmill, Zibi, Lebreton) but they are spread out over 20-30 years and it is good that more construction is taking place within the city boundaries. I wonder if the demand will be there in the short term though.
Condo residents are often renters in the downtown core. Many condo units are bought up by investors who become landlords and rent the units out. So don't restrict the condo inhabitants to owners--it isn't quite like bungalows in the suburbs, where almost all of them have owners who live in them. Many condo owners do live in their units (I do), but many have rental tenants. Ottawa's rental market has a very healthy, growing demand.

This works out well, because the downtown core has a sizeable mobile population group, much more so than the outer suburbs do... lots of young singles or young couples, for example, who tend to leave and look for a bungalow with a lawn of they decide to get married and have kids. Also, lots of people here working short-term for the government, or for the federal political parties, for consulting firms, etc., who are likely to rent a condo rather than buying a house in the suburbs...
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  #1060  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RTWAP View Post
List of things I would like added to the RV proposal:

Asticou Sector
Put these on the "park" land between planned Asticou buildings and War Museum, building relatively low profile buildings beside and above SJAM, and cover with contoured and landscaped park suitable for things like Bluesfest (not necesarily one flat featureless expanse) and even include a bandshell and some event-based access to washroom facilities. The overall effect should be gently rolling hills that integrate well with the War Museum setting. Height increase should be limited to approx 10 meters. if a few more meters are needed then perhaps raise SJAM west of Nepean Bay Inlet as it passes over rail tracks to preserve sight-line to Parliamentary District.
In some ways I wouldn't mind the Rendezvous proposal if instead of the Asticou area being permanent buildings, they make the space north of the Aqueduct into a changeable canvas. Run all necessary utilities in there and configure it for 3 or 4 pavilion type buildings with 10 to 15 year lifespans, which at the end could be easily dismantled and recycled. If the CTC can be deemed a throw-away after a couple of decades, there is nothing wrong with designing buildings that are properly recyclable, in fact it might be a great exercise. Each one could focus on a topic that is currently trending which might not a decade later. If in the future the replacements are staggered every 2 to 5 years, there could be something new at the site all the time, and feature the latest in architectural styles. Being opposite the festival park, something like this could work really well, bits of starchiteture without permanent commitment.

I'm thinking of the amazing expo pavilions that are often only built for a year, which are architectural statements and pieces of art but could easily last a bit longer. They're a different class of building and often stretch the envelope of design and engineering (I wonder if you could buy some of these after they're done with them). At maybe $10- to $20-million a piece prorated over a decade+ would be worth it, about the same cost a single museum would refurbish its exhibits. Also if this space has an ephemeral quality to it, creates an urgency to visit (and more often) since it might not be the same in a few years, sort of an architectural equivalent of having fresh cut flowers that keep some people happy for a week







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