[Moncton] Downtown Developments

[mylesmalley]

StatCan uses a number of different criteria to measure cities. The number most often quoted is the Census Metropolitan Area, but for the sake of density comparisons it isn't very good.

The better alternative is the Population Centre which StatCan defines as:

A population centre (POPCTR) has a population of at least 1,000 and a population density of 400 persons or more per square kilometre, based on the current census population count. All areas outside population centres are classified as rural areas.

Taken together, population centres and rural areas cover all of Canada.

Population centres are classified into three groups, depending on the size of their population:

small population centres, with a population between 1,000 and 29,999
medium population centres, with a population between 30,000 and 99,999
large urban population centres, with a population of 100,000 or more.

Population centre population includes all population living in the cores, secondary cores and fringes of census metropolitan areas (CMAs) and census agglomerations (CAs), as well as the population living in population centres outside CMAs and CAs.

Moncton's Population Centre:


Saint John's Population Centre:



Moncton's Population Centre density: 819 per km2.
Saint John's Population Centre density: 457 per km2.
Halifax's: 1100.
Toronto: 2931.

[MonctonRad]

Thanks Myles.

Saint John seems dense because of the built form of the uptown area, but density rapidly drops off once you get off the uptown peninsula (and the west end area).

Moncton on the other hand seems less dense because of the less impressive stature of the downtown core and the abundance of surface parking in the downtown. The city however retains at least a moderate urban density out to the Wheeler Blvd boundary and into the Humphrey/Lewisville area.

I'm not surprised that the POPCTR (urban area) population density is higher in Moncton than in Saint John. We actually compare reasonably well to Halifax. If we had a few more residential highrises, we would be right up there......

[Nashe]

I'm quite surprised at that Moncton stat too, but in a good way. I take from that that while the core isn't particularly dense, there aren't at least any large low-density/zero-density pockets within the limits. I know there IS growth downtown (lots of new apt buildings, albeit relatively modest 3-5 storey ones) but I guess without seeing the numbers, you forget about the impact.

We're a long way from making RyeJay happy (I kid), but at least we`re headed in the right direction.

[mylesmalley]

Moncton got about 10% more dense in the past five years.

We compare with similar cities that aren't located in larger conurbations like in southern Ontario or Vancouver. Thunder Bay, Sherbrooke, St John's, St Catharines, etc are all in the same league as us. Obviously though there is a lot of room for improvement.

And it's worth noting that even those numbers can be a bit misleading. Because it is inside a census tract that was included in the 'Population Centre' of Moncton, the old part of the Moncton Industrial Park contributes a lot of area but no people (meaning making the city look less dense overall). Same goes for Centennial Park, UdeM, the Victory Industrial Park, Parc St Anselm, Mapleton Park etc. Also, the overall density of a census tract might be high enough to include it in a population centre, but that doesn't mean it's uniformly dense. All of Riverview is included, but in reality less than half of town limits are actually built up.

[Nashe]

I try to avoid boosterism as much as I can but I have to admit that living in SE NB in the past decade is pretty interesting, at least from my humble country-boy POV. I remember travelling to K-Mart on Mapleton back in the 70's and it was barely a road, across a muddy creek and down that crazy hill. And the "hump" over the tracks at Moncton High that used to freak my mom out. There has been a LOT of change, region-wide. Working at the municipality has included me in a lot of the change, and it's breath-taking sometimes.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Yeah Moncton centre hasn't got that much more dense, but Moncton as a whole has. Like north of the TCH there really isn't that much development. I think Moncton really need this expand their boundaries so that can stop developments like rural estates from happening again. I eventually see a larger scale amalgamation happening. Dieppe will never amalgamate but I can see Riverview doing eventually.

[MonctonRad]

The Freshii restaurant (located at Main and Botsford across from city hall) will open on February 24th.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Moncton's Population Centre density: 819 per km2.
Saint John's Population Centre density: 457 per km2.
Halifax's: 1100.
Toronto: 2931.

Since the population of the city of Saint John is larger than the city of Moncton, should we assume the area designated as the POPCTR is almost twice the size of the one in Moncton?

Would be really interesting to see these numbers for just the downtown core for similar cities. Saint John is just too big geographically.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

Since the population of the city of Saint John is larger than the city of Moncton, should we assume the area designated as the POPCTR is almost twice the size of the one in Moncton?

Would be really interesting to see these numbers for just the downtown core for similar cities. Saint John is just too big geographically.

Saint John is possibly no longer the largest city in the province. In the last census, the city of Moncton was only a couple of hundred souls behind (and growing). The Moncton CMA (and POPCTR) meanwhile have been the largest in the province for some time now.

The POPCTR for both cities includes the built up suburban areas like Riverview, Dieppe, Quispamsis and Rothesay.

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

Since the population of the city of Saint John is larger than the city of Moncton, should we assume the area designated as the POPCTR is almost twice the size of the one in Moncton?

Yes. Although for the record, there was only a 989 person difference between the municipalities in 2011 and that gap has almost certainly closed in the past three years. It's also worth noting that the City of Saint John is more than twice as large as the City of Moncton in surface area.

Originally Posted by nwalbert

Would be really interesting to see these numbers for just the downtown core for similar cities. Saint John is just too big geographically.

I agree. Unfortunately StatCan doesn't provide surface areas for dissemination areas (several block areas) or dissemination blocks (literally an area bounded by streets). They do give them for census tracts, but they are much too large and in both city's case, include a lot of empty land that would skew things.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Yes. Although for the record, there was only a 989 person difference between the municipalities in 2011 and that gap has almost certainly closed in the past three years. It's also worth noting that the City of Saint John is more than twice as large as the City of Moncton in surface area.

I thought the last Census was delivered representing data from 2011, wouldn't that make it two years?

IF the population trends from the last two census continued then its possible Moncton city may have caught Saint John. I would say that this is far from a certainty but we will find out in three years I suppose.

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

I thought the last Census was delivered representing data from 2011, wouldn't that make it two years?

IF the population trends from the last two census continued then its possible Moncton city may have caught Saint John. I would say that this is far from a certainty but we will find out in three years I suppose.

We're in 2014. Three years out from the census. Next one is in 2016

I'm pretty confident in my statement though.
Annual population estimates from Statcan for each CMA: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo05a-eng.htm

Anyway, I don't want this to turn into a dick measuring contest .

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

We're in 2014. Three years out from the census. Next one is in 2016

I'm pretty confident in my statement though.
Annual population estimates from Statcan for each CMA: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo05a-eng.htm

Anyway, I don't want this to turn into a dick measuring contest .

I just assumed the last Census included 2011 which since 2014 just started would allow 2 years for additional growth. Assuming that growth rates continued and Moncton proper got about 50% of that growth, the cities would be roughly the same around this time, but as I said, we wont know until the next Census is released in 2016. I stand by my comments that it is far from a certainty at this point, although by 2016 it should be.

[in-city]

The problem downtown is the urban fabric, it’s full of holes. Go see Arequipa, Peru on google Earth. The majority of the downtown core is made up of 2 storey buildings. This is a very dense city in comparison to Moncton and the only tall buildings are churches. The city is recognised by UNESCO… it’s a beautiful city.

Notice all the children and women in the streetscapes. The amount of women and children walking on the sidewalk is usually a very good indicator on how well the urban plan is. The more you have, the safer the street feels.

Halifax, Fredericton and St John have better urban fabric in the core. It’s probably due to the topography, pushing the core closer together.

We have to look at the trade-off… if the intent of good urban planning is to get women and children on the sidewalk… one very tall building vs lots of 2 or 3 storey buildings like in Arequipa… the short buildings will mend the urban fabric much better.

An empty lot feels very dangerous; the uncertainty of the open space with no people around to help is not very pleasing. It’s also very ugly to look at a sea of parking.

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

I just assumed the last Census included 2011 which since 2014 just started would allow 2 years for additional growth. Assuming that growth rates continued and Moncton proper got about 50% of that growth, the cities would be roughly the same around this time, but as I said, we wont know until the next Census is released in 2016. I stand by my comments that it is far from a certainty at this point, although by 2016 it should be.

Looked at the numbers broken out by municipality:

Moncton:


Saint John


These are big What-If numbers though. It's pretty unlikely that Dieppe (or Quispamsis for that matter) can sustain 20-30% growth for that long.

I also think it's interesting that, in spite of the fact that both are growing, Moncton and Saint John are both losing ground as an overall share of their CMAs to other municipalities.

[Monctoncore]

http://22864.vws.magma.ca/index.php?&article_id=12423

Moncton eyes major downtown redesign

Wednesday, February 12, 2014
Times & Transcript
By: Brent Mazerolle
Location: A1

First off, we’re talking about much more than merely re-connecting a street.

A City of Moncton plan to reopen Downing Street in the heart of Moncton’s downtown got off to an inspiring start last night as roughly 30 stakeholders gathered in the lobby of city hall to start brainstorming nothing less than a completely new way to experience downtown.

What has already been reported of the project is the project at its most basic. The City of Moncton has leveraged the fact 2015 represents Moncton’s 125th anniversary as a city to access a federal grant program that aids legacy projects for such occasions.

[MonctonRad]

Favourite quotes from this article:

Opening Downing Street, which today leads only to the parking lots of the Blue Cross Centre and Assumption Place, would be a catalyst for construction along its edges, a venue for community events, and a means to get Moncton’s linear east-west downtown flowing on a north-south axis as well.

A leading idea that emerged both from the discussions last night, and from an earlier consultation with the Mayor’s Youth Advisory Committee, was a market that would replace the current city market on Westmorland Street, perhaps as a market open daily as exists in Saint John.

Though the high-rise office buildings all around – the Blue Cross Centre, Assumption Place, the city hall/Bank of Montréal complex, and the Rogers building on Assomption Boulevard – all would help give Downing Street the foot traffic it needs, many of the participants suggested low-rise buildings on a more human scale would be most appropriate along the street itself.

The group tasked with looking at the street itself agreed, speaking of a street that didn’t bar cars completely, but discouraged drivers from merely using it as a convenient thoroughfare.

Scott said it was possible to create a street that“dissolves some of the lines” between cars and bicycles and pedestrians.

Thinking of the whole elongated hourglass that is the city hall plaza, Downing Street, and the riverfront, there is considerable potential for hosting the sort of events that today shut down a considerable stretch of Main Street each summer. There also seemed a general consensus that the tripartite space should be able to accommodate events of any size.

“To create density downtown, you have to provide services,” he said, suggesting that shops lining Downing Street, for instance, couldn’t just cater to tourists or clothes shoppers. Downtown residents also need to grab a litre of milk or pick up a prescription too.

That doesn’t preclude considering a bigger, more philosophical idea of what this re-imagined core could represent.

So, in summary, the committee is looking at an integrated north/south corridor for the eastern portion of the downtown core encompassing city hall plaza, Downing Street and the entrance area into the Riverfront Park.

For Downing Street itself, they envisage that it will be a mixed transportation corridor including vehicular access but also bicycle and pedestrian friendly, lined by low rise mixed use buildings with main floor commercial space and that it will serve as the main entrance to the Riverfront Park and will also serve as a north/south axis that the downtown core sorely lacks right now. And, (the part I like best), they envisage Downing Street as the principle space in the downtown where outdoor events could be held - rather than Main Street.

This sounds like a tremendous plan!! Apparently Trace Planning & Design will be getting back to the committee in the next few weeks with initial plans and renderings. I can hardly wait!!

[in-city]

This sounds like a great plan, really hope it's not just a pipe dream! It's all about getting people out of their cars and on to the sidewalk.

[JasonL-Moncton]

Downing Street idea sounds fantastic, as does a permanent market space that's open daily...that would be awesome. Let's hope they do it right!

[BlackYear]

The church house at the corner of Lutz & MtRD has been demolished and so has the first house on Robinson. Leaving this area flatten. I'm not sure what's planned for this piece of land. Is it possible the Roy's convenience store owner from across the street bought these two extra parcel of land, because he did/does own the corner lot at Robinson & MtRd, the location of his former store.

Two blocks over, Zio's new restaurant project is ready to go.

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