Ontario Highways - Page 53

Dengler Avenue · #**1041** Posted **Jun 17, 2021, 1:11 AM**

The red lines stood out. Were they from your camera or what were they?

sonysnob · #**1042** Posted **Jun 17, 2021, 1:15 AM**

They are light trails from passing traffic.

sonysnob · #**1043** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 2:12 AM**

View of Highway 400 looking southerly from the King/Vaughan Road overpass. The dedicated HOV ingress/egress lane can be seen on the southbound side of the highway. This is a new approach to managing access to and from HOV lanes -- a first for a highway in Ontario:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_4...ul21_24x16.jpg

waterloowarrior · #**1044** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 11:18 AM**

Southern Highways program update
https://ontario.ca/page/ontarios-highway-programs

Innsertnamehere · #**1045** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 11:22 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonysnob

View of Highway 400 looking southerly from the King/Vaughan Road overpass. The dedicated HOV ingress/egress lane can be seen on the southbound side of the highway. This is a new approach to managing access to and from HOV lanes -- a first for a highway in Ontario:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_4...ul21_24x16.jpg

I can’t help but wonder if it would have just been better to build a 10 lane cross section, considering that’s basically what this is now.

Dengler Avenue · #**1046** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 11:25 AM**

I’m looking at the Northern Ontario portion. It’s interesting that, for 69, a contract can span 10+ km but that, for 11&17, a contract spans around 6 km.
I wonder what factors (besides terrain) are at play.

Quote:

I can’t help but wonder if it would have just been better to build a 10 lane cross section, considering that’s basically what this is now.

Probably, sadly

sonysnob · #**1047** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 12:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I can’t help but wonder if it would have just been better to build a 10 lane cross section, considering that’s basically what this is now.

Well, I've never been one to hide my distaste for HOV lanes, but, the way that Ontario constructs its HOV lanes, they cost an awful lot more than simply adding a standard GPL. To warrant the expense, I really hope that the lanes are effective at changing people's driving behaviours. Personally, I don't think they are effective at changing behaviour and if they don't, HOV lanes are in my opinion a bad investment.

Dengler Avenue · #**1048** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 1:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Well, I've never been one to hide my distaste for HOV lanes, but, the way that Ontario constructs its HOV lanes, they cost an awful lot more than simply adding a standard GPL. To warrant the expense, I really hope that the lanes are effective at changing people's driving behaviours. Personally, I don't think they are effective at changing behaviour and if they don't, HOV lanes are in my opinion a bad investment.

During rush hour, the cars in the HOV lanes on 404 and on QEW move faster than those in GPL, though still at < 100 kph. I guess it’s well used so that it works okay…?

sonysnob · #**1049** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 1:04 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I’m looking at the Northern Ontario portion. It’s interesting that, for 69, a contract can span 10+ km but that, for 11&17, a contract spans around 6 km.
I wonder what factors (besides terrain) are at play.

Probably, sadly

The size of contracts is probably determined by factors other than terrain. There are a lot of factors that can determine the length of an individual contract, including the limitations of design staff, property requirements etc.

Probably the most deciding factor in determining the contract lengths is the ability of contractors to bid and complete the job. A contractor needs to be able to float a lot of money while they actual build the work before they get paid. The larger the contract value, the fewer contractors there may be to actually bid on the contract and complete the work. The fewer contractors that are available, the less competitive the bids are, and the more an individual contract will cost the province.

sonysnob · #**1050** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 1:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

During rush hour, the cars in the HOV lanes on 404 and on QEW move faster than those in GPL, though still at < 100 kph. I guess it’s well used so that it works okay…?

Sure, but that's not the point.

The HOV lane has to encourage more people to carpool to be effective. Some people have always carpooled, and some trips are just families driving together because they are families. Family trips aren't worth spending extra money on to speed their trips up.

On a aggregate level in the GTA, carpooling trips have dropped slightly over the past 15 years. Aggregate statistics can be misleading, but simply providing faster trips to people who would carpool regardless of the existence of an HOV is a waste of money.

Dengler Avenue · #**1051** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 2:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Sure, but that's not the point.

The HOV lane has to encourage more people to carpool to be effective. Some people have always carpooled, and some trips are just families driving together because they are families. Family trips aren't worth spending extra money on to speed their trips up.

On a aggregate level in the GTA, carpooling trips have dropped slightly over the past 15 years. Aggregate statistics can be misleading, but simply providing faster trips to people who would carpool regardless of the existence of an HOV is a waste of money.

I’m curious how strictly O.P.P. enforces HOV, particularly outside of rush hours (if you know I mean). This is as obvious as I will get.

Dengler Avenue · #**1052** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 2:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The size of contracts is probably determined by factors other than terrain. There are a lot of factors that can determine the length of an individual contract, including the limitations of design staff, property requirements etc.

Probably the most deciding factor in determining the contract lengths is the ability of contractors to bid and complete the job. A contractor needs to be able to float a lot of money while they actual build the work before they get paid. The larger the contract value, the fewer contractors there may be to actually bid on the contract and complete the work. The fewer contractors that are available, the less competitive the bids are, and the more an individual contract will cost the province.

Thanks. This makes sense.

swimmer_spe · #**1053** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 3:39 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I’m looking at the Northern Ontario portion. It’s interesting that, for 69, a contract can span 10+ km but that, for 11&17, a contract spans around 6 km.
I wonder what factors (besides terrain) are at play.

One other factor is... politics. Generally speaking, anything north of North Bay/Sudbury won't see long contracts given out due to the fact that they don't matter in the next election.

Highway 69 is just as tough to work in as 17 near Dryden.

Dengler Avenue · #**1054** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 3:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

One other factor is... politics. Generally speaking, anything north of North Bay/Sudbury won't see long contracts given out due to the fact that they don't matter in the next election.

Highway 69 is just as tough to work in as 17 near Dryden.

17 around Dryden actually has animal farm land on one side and rocks on the other. #BadExample
On that note, a route for Dryden bypass has been selected for a long time. Where can I find it? Or is it simply insider information (just like Denlou - Espanola Freeway)? I can’t find it on Dryden’s municipal website.

sonysnob · #**1055** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 4:26 PM**

I actually don't think politics is at play here at all. I just think that the contractors in northwestern Ontario have different capabilities than the ones that are a 2.5 hour drive from Toronto. And I think the work is parsed out that way for a reason.

The current Highway 69 widening project at the French and Pickerel River bridges is either the largest or second largest value contract that the MTO has ever tendered. Only certain companies are large enough to take on so much work at one time.

swimmer_spe · #**1056** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 4:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

17 around Dryden actually has animal farm land on one side and rocks on the other. #BadExample
On that note, a route for Dryden bypass has been selected for a long time. Where can I find it? Or is it simply insider information (just like Denlou - Espanola Freeway)? I can’t find it on Dryden’s municipal website.

My point wasn't the exact place, but the fact that most of Northern ON has the same challenges - Granite.

swimmer_spe · #**1057** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 4:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I actually don't think politics is at play here at all. I just think that the contractors in northwestern Ontario have different capabilities than the ones that are a 2.5 hour drive from Toronto. And I think the work is parsed out that way for a reason.

The current Highway 69 widening project at the French and Pickerel River bridges is either the largest or second largest value contract that the MTO has ever tendered. Only certain companies are large enough to take on so much work at one time.

I'd be willing to bet that most of the high value contracts are in Southern ON, with possibly the Nipigon River Bridge as the exception.

If anyone has a list of the top 10 highway projects by cost, it would be interesting to see how many are north of Sudbury/North Bay, if any.

sonysnob · #**1058** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 5:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I'd be willing to bet that most of the high value contracts are in Southern ON, with possibly the Nipigon River Bridge as the exception.

If anyone has a list of the top 10 highway projects by cost, it would be interesting to see how many are north of Sudbury/North Bay, if any.

Of course they are.

Most of the money is spent where most of the people who pay the money live.

Why would you think otherwise?

swimmer_spe · #**1059** Posted **Jul 22, 2021, 11:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Of course they are.

Most of the money is spent where most of the people who pay the money live.

Why would you think otherwise?

I wouldn't think otherwise. However, the fact that most provinces are working on actively 4 laning a route through their provinces, and ON isn't.

thewave46 · #**1060** Posted **Jul 23, 2021, 12:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I'd be willing to bet that most of the high value contracts are in Southern ON, with possibly the Nipigon River Bridge as the exception.

If anyone has a list of the top 10 highway projects by cost, it would be interesting to see how many are north of Sudbury/North Bay, if any.

The province is spending some bucks on Highway 11-17 near Thunder Bay.

In aggregate it's probably several hundred million dollars.

Even with Northern Ontario, literally more than half of the population is concentrated in the Highway 17 corridor between North Bay and the Sault. Only looking north of that means you're ignoring more than half the population of the region.

So, you're talking ~350,000 people in a province of 14 million. 2.5% of the province of Ontario. Given that the MTO's entire budget is $5.2 billion for 2019, of which $2.2 billion is spent on highways (the bulk of which is spent on repair, not expansion) you're looking at $130 million proportionally speaking for the region for all MTO operations north of Sudbury-North Bay.

If the region you specify received a similar proportion spent on its highways as the south, it would amount to $55 million per year. It probably receives proportionally more due to less transit spending, but you're looking at a budget of <$100 million per year. That doesn't buy a lot given the mileage of roads that need to be maintained - thousands of kilometres of highway.