Highways in Canada

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

- I continue to be confused as to why they are proposing to retain the 410 connection to Highway 10, including expensive flyovers to connect it to the now extended 410, which is effectively replaced by the 413. I feel like they would be better off removing it as most traffic will likely get on the 413 anyway.

I could see the reason if the new 410-413 interchange was basically just a partial interchange that allowed for NB 410 to EB 413 and WB 413 to SB 410 movements. This would be similar to what you have with the 401-416 or 401-402, 401-403 interchanges today. NB 410 to WB 413 (probably not a huge volume) and vice versa could be handled from the parclo interchange at the 10/413 without having to hit any traffic lights.

I wouldn't abandon the current 410 north of Mayfield. Besides being relatively new, it adds redundancy and allows Hwy 10 traffic to get onto the 410 without using the 413. You probably have better access to the actual models, but I can see many trips from Caledon/Orangeville going to places not served by the 413, like the Brampton and Malton employment lands west of the airport and to the QEW without using the tolled 407.

[jamincan]

Bolton kind of gets shafted with that plan. Obviously the interchange with the 427 kind of gets in the way, but a connection to Hwy 50 seems important enough to add regardless.

[Loco101]

I'm wondering if Hwy 413 will actually get started this decade. The cost will be huge for sure. I can certainly see it being tolled in order to make it happen but with much lower tolls than the 407.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I'm wondering if Hwy 413 will actually get started this decade. The cost will be huge for sure. I can certainly see it being tolled in order to make it happen but with much lower tolls than the 407.

It's Douggie's legacy project. The Ontario PCs will do everything they can to get shovels in the ground by the time the next election starts in 2026. The other parties are against it and if it's already underway they can say its too expensive to cancel and will stop progress (the P in PC).

[Dengler Avenue]

No wonder things have been quiet on the front of Highway 417 extension other than that interchange at Calabogie Road (which does improve things quite a bit).

[1overcosc]

I really wish we had more road tolls. It would be great if we could replace gas taxes with per-km road tolls; it's functionally the same thing (the more km you drive, the more it costs you) and it prevents loss of revenue from the pending switch to EVs. We could have differential road tolls for different levels of road, so freeways would have a higher toll rate than arterial roads. And demand-based tolls, too, a system where tolls are dynamically priced according to current traffic levels, where tolls automatically increase during peak periods or higher congestion times.

With systems like these, the cost of roads becomes directly tied to the tax revenue from roads; meaning that road development projects can be directly tied to cost-benefit. Systems work better when there is price discovery, and the costs are paid by those who create them.

[Innsertnamehere]

The PCs have promised it will be toll free, FYI

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I really wish we had more road tolls. It would be great if we could replace gas taxes with per-km road tolls; it's functionally the same thing (the more km you drive, the more it costs you) and it prevents loss of revenue from the pending switch to EVs. We could have differential road tolls for different levels of road, so freeways would have a higher toll rate than arterial roads. And demand-based tolls, too, a system where tolls are dynamically priced according to current traffic levels, where tolls automatically increase during peak periods or higher congestion times.

With systems like these, the cost of roads becomes directly tied to the tax revenue from roads; meaning that road development projects can be directly tied to cost-benefit. Systems work better when there is price discovery, and the costs are paid by those who create them.

I don't mind toll highways personally, having driven on some in the US and Mexico. I think that in Ontario they've become political suicide because of the 407, so any suggestion of even a small toll would be met with a lot of opposition. Same issue in BC with the new Port Mann Bridge; the tolls there also had the effect of increasing traffic in New Westminster and on the Pattullo Bridge, so it would be politically difficult to implement them here as well.

I've driven on I-90 through both New York and Ohio and have paid tolls on the Thruway and the Ohio Turnpike; neither of them would be considered a ripoff compared to the 407. It's been over 10 years since I've driven in Mexico but as I recall the tolls on that country's Highway 140D cost over 400 pesos or about $30 CAD for 200 km, which isn't terrible for a Canadian tourist but would be a lot of money for locals.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I really wish we had more road tolls. It would be great if we could replace gas taxes with per-km road tolls; it's functionally the same thing (the more km you drive, the more it costs you) and it prevents loss of revenue from the pending switch to EVs. We could have differential road tolls for different levels of road, so freeways would have a higher toll rate than arterial roads. And demand-based tolls, too, a system where tolls are dynamically priced according to current traffic levels, where tolls automatically increase during peak periods or higher congestion times.

With systems like these, the cost of roads becomes directly tied to the tax revenue from roads; meaning that road development projects can be directly tied to cost-benefit. Systems work better when there is price discovery, and the costs are paid by those who create them.

It's far less sexy to announce a Transportation Demand Management initiative compared to the appeal of the photo op of a set of shiny shovels digging into fresh ground to mark the construction of a new highway or a major expansion.

At least there are still plenty of large transit projects to kick off. And those will be important no matter how personal vehicle use evolves.

Still, something will eventually have to replace fuel taxes. Charging drivers per km of vehicle use may be far more palatable than tolls and road pricing for highway corridors. Really a combination of approaches should be used, but politicians do love the silver bullets.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I don't mind toll highways personally, having driven on some in the US and Mexico. I think that in Ontario they've become political suicide because of the 407, so any suggestion of even a small toll would be met with a lot of opposition. Same issue in BC with the new Port Mann Bridge; the tolls there also had the effect of increasing traffic in New Westminster and on the Pattullo Bridge, so it would be politically difficult to implement them here as well.

I don't think I'd consider tolling the 407 extension along with the 412 and 418 political suicide.