Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[PHX31]

Silverbear,
There are plenty of those types of jobs that are late night as well, on top of that, you would be attracting more ridership by adding the people trying to have an alternate mode of transportation home. I'd be willing to bet there would be much more ridership (double? triple?) during late night hours on the weekend than early morning hours on the weekend. Ridership numbers are nearly the most important thing to METRO and the planners.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I'd be willing to bet there would be much more ridership (double? triple?) during late night hours on the weekend than early morning hours on the weekend. Ridership numbers are nearly the most important thing to METRO and the planners.

I'm not sure I agree with your projection, but I do agree that ridership data needs to be what drives this decision. One of the proposed compromises I've been hearing about is a pilot program to test later hours on weekends. That would present an opportunity to gather some real data and make an informed decision.

[PHX31]

/\ That's a good idea... at least they're taking the steps to be flexible.

[SunDevil]

Pilot programs won't work because people won't change their routine for a brief period of time, only to have to change it back again when the pilot program ends.

[andrewkfromaz]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

Pilot programs won't work because people won't change their routine for a brief period of time, only to have to change it back again when the pilot program ends.

Who needs a night-on-the-town routine? Doesn't that make it less fun anyway? Publicize it well in advance and people will show up, if they're interested.

I have to say I'm much more optimistic about late-night rail service than I've been so far. 350 grand does not seem insurmountable. What about reducing frequency to hourly? They can come up with more accurate costs and we can come up with better ways to fund it (as mentioned, more expensive passes... and so on)

[AZ KID]

Here is a 103 picture slide show of the light rail found on azcentral.com

http://www.azcentral.com/commphotos/...ral/6732/1/103

[PhxPavilion]

I take it no one else saw the three car light rail being tested today. Wow, it is massive.

[PHX31]

Where was it being tested?

I saw a three-car train sitting in front of Sun Devil Stadium last weekend when I went to the ASU/Georgia game.

[HX_Guy]

It went through downtown, I caught it on the Chase Field webcam as it came down Jefferson.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by combusean

Speaking of cross-talk (from the sugg box thread), shouldn't this discussion be moved into Transit and Transportation developments?

Done and done

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

medians = soccer mom heaven why don't we just build west bell road what with all the malls and chain restaurants in place of Melrose.

Huh? You do realize Mill Avenue, the Valleys most urbanly active street has medians full of trees and agave's, right? There is nothing inherently ubran or suburban about medians. Medians planted densely with Sonoran plants will beautify the city, increase the feeling of an 'outdoor room', reduce traffic noise and slightly reduce the heat island (though you'd have to do it much more widely than just on the 7's).

Originally Posted by andrewkfromaz

Medians also collect cigarette butts, gum, and other trash. As you're taking Greenway east towards Scottsdale make sure and look closely at the median from the 51 through to Tatum Blvd.... It's not attractive. A middle lane might not be more attractive, but it's not all fun and games.

So we shouldn't have medians because the City sometimes does a crappy job of maintaining them? Drive North on Tatum out to the library there at Tatum and Cave Creek, the sonoran-scaped medians are gorgeous. Id love for us to have more of them all throughout the city.

Originally Posted by silverbear

Medians, on the other hand, are designed more for the benefit of drivers. The 7s already favor drivers over pedestrians. It's time to restore some balance between the two.

Why do medians favor drivers over pedestrians? I'd say its jut the opposite. Medians with only occasional left turn lanes means people would be more apt to walk. Medians I would imagine would generally slightly slow down traffic (thus increasing the chance someone would chose to walk), would reduce the opportunity for left turns, perhaps encouraging people to park and walk between destinations, instead of driving everywhere, and they'd cool the area down (slightly) and help create some shade when the trees reached maturation.

I don't dislike your idea, I just can't see the city giving up that many lanes.

Originally Posted by MattD

Phoenix Skyscraper Center Median Discussion Group?...oy

Its really more of a development forum than just being related to skyscrapers only.

Originally Posted by chriswaz

My suggestion for the 7's:

- Prep it for light rail by putting in an appropriately sized median (or turn lane).

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here, are you proposing running LRT up and down the 7s? That will never happen, there wouldn't be enough usage with LRT already on Central. The closest we can probably hope for additional LRT lines running North-South would be on 19th ave and 24th St.

Originally Posted by PhxPavilion

The purpose of the suicide lane was to help traffic flow during rush hour, while I agree on the notion that it should be changed back to a turn lane removing a lane for wider sidewalks is a 180 degree turn that will create more traffic problems than there already are.

The suicide lanes were also implemented before LRT. Theoretically LRT should help ease traffic (or at least reduce future traffic) in Central Phoenix, so perhaps there would be less need for the 7's to be mini highways. Furthermore, the SR51 and I-17 weren't around when the suicide lanes were put in either.

[PhxPavilion]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

The suicide lanes were also implemented before LRT. Theoretically LRT should help ease traffic (or at least reduce future traffic) in Central Phoenix, so perhaps there would be less need for the 7's to be mini highways. Furthermore, the SR51 and I-17 weren't around when the suicide lanes were put in either.

There's a large amount of traffic moving in and out of downtown (a significant portion via the 51 and 202) on any given day; remember, this is Phoenix, where everyone has a car. The LRT, while it will help, doesn't service a large enough area to significantly reduce traffic, plus there are few park and ride lots, 1/4 the amount of parking spots of that of Denver.

[NIXPHX77]

Hooverdam, i agree with all of your above comments 2 posts ago.
however, just to clarify, I-17 was built and open before the
reverse lanes took effect in 79 and 82 (approx. years.)

[HX_Guy]

Free rides extended for light rail's opening

by Casey Newton - Oct. 17, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Valley residents will get a few more free rides on Metro light rail when it opens Dec. 27.

Initially, residents would have been able to ride for free on Dec. 27 and Dec. 28.

The Metro board voted this week to let people ride the light rail for free through Dec. 31, allowing weekday commuters to test out the new system for free for three days.

The move also means people can ride for free on New Year's Eve.

Free rides will be offered from 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. on Dec. 27, and from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. on Dec. 28.

Weekday hours for the system are still under discussion.

For more information on the opening celebration, visit www.metrolightrail.org/grandopening.

[PHX31]

That's great they're letting us ride on New Year's Eve.

Now, about those weekend (and holiday - ie New Year's Eve) hours... will they be until at least 1am, hopefully 2am?

This would be the biggest blunder in history if they open rides up for New Year's Eve, the one day everyone stays out until at least midnight, but have the last train depart at 10pm.

Maybe this will help them make up their mind that extended hours on the weekend is a necessity.

[Vicelord John]

I was riding down Washington today and saw 5 trains between 24th and 44th streets.

they are really fun to ride next to.

[Azndragon837]

I have yet to see a train in-person moving along the tracks. When do they usually stop testing? I am out of work by 6pm, and I may catch one if I take Washington Street (coming south from Downtown Scottsdale where I work) all the way to Downtown Phoenix.

-Andrew

[RichTempe]

Here's a link to a segment on Fox News about the light rail rides that people got after the mayor's State of the City address the other day: http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/myfox/pa...Y&pageId=1.1.1

[HooverDam]

A piece from today's Republic on the light rail and the chances for revamping the Washington Corridor:

Light rail may revive Washington Street corridor
by Chad Graham - Oct. 20, 2008 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

When it comes to Washington Street, think of Metro light rail as a ribbon that could tie together economic opportunities.

The roughly 8-mile stretch from downtown Phoenix to Tempe was neglected for decades, but it could become a dynamic corridor that better links Arizona State University's campuses, Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport and GateWay Community College, as well as biotech and green-energy companies.

It would put tourists in easier reach of the Phoenix Zoo, the Desert Botanical Garden and Phoenix Municipal Stadium.
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Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon calls it the "opportunity corridor," and in 2005, he began calling for a revitalization of the area between the Salt River and Van Buren Street and from the Capitol complex east to the Tempe city line.

Progress has been slow, and the meltdown of the financial markets has dried up capital for some promised private-sector improvements. Existing businesses have suffered, too, with light-rail construction shutting down some mom-and-pop shops and crippling others.

But Gordon maintains the problems are not permanent.

Light rail will bring in new customers to shops; blighted areas are already disappearing; home prices in the area have increased, even against the slumping market.

"There are two corridors that have benefited the most from the light rail: the west Camelback area and the Washington-Jefferson corridor," he said.

The $1.4 billion train system is set to open Dec. 27. It will run 20 miles - from northwest Phoenix through downtown Phoenix and Tempe to west Mesa.

Years of change
When Phoenix was incorporated in 1881, Washington Street was the town's principal east-west thoroughfare. In 1887, it became the first route on the horse-drawn streetcar system.

In later decades, Van Buren Street, only a few blocks away, stole the glory as U.S. 60. Washington Street became known more for junkyards, car-repair shops, fast-food chains and vacant land.

In the racially segregated first half of the 20th century, Washington Street became a major thoroughfare for Black and Hispanic culture through schools, churches and commerce.

The three largest Black churches in the city are in the area, and "on any given Sunday, you're going to have somewhere close to 5,000 to 8,000 African-Americans going up and down that street," said Ron Busby, president and CEO of the Greater Phoenix Black Chamber of Commerce.

Washington Street has been a center for Black-owned business, and Busby believes light rail will have a mixed impact.

He said it could attract new companies and improve the tax base, but "unfortunately, some of those businesses that are going to leave are going to be the very traditional, second- and third-generation African-American-owned businesses," he said.

The owners of Jokake Construction have helped preserve Washington Street's fading history. In 2003, they bought 7 acres of land near 50th and Washington streets, including the historic Stockyards Restaurant and 1889 Saloon. They restored the eatery and reopened it in 2005.

The Stockyards, which originally opened in 1947, survived light-rail construction. Owner Gary Lasko now hopes for a spike in business. Although it is not near a station, riders will pass back and forth, giving the restaurant exposure.

Lasko agrees that parts of Washington Street were blighted for many years.

"But now it's beautiful," he said. "People don't even recognize it when they come down."

With light-rail construction finished, drivers have access to wider streets that feature new curbs, sidewalks and landscaping.

The street once again provides a main route to the airport and allows easy access to freeways.

Phoenix City Council member Michael Johnson, whose district includes part of the Washington Street corridor, believes that light rail will improve the downtown area, "and then you're going to have a step-down effect from Seventh Street" and beyond.

'A key link'
Plenty of vacant land remains.

"The light rail is a key link to all of that," said Don Keuth, president of the Phoenix Community Alliance, a group that advocates the revitalization of central Phoenix. "It is the ribbon that runs through it."

Eric Johnson, redevelopment-program manager for Phoenix, is equally upbeat.

"Parts of that corridor . . . have seen quite a bit of investment already," he said, "and we expect that to continue."

Milwaukee-based Irgens Development Partners LLC decided to place its faith in the promise of Washington Street two years ago: The company built an office near 50th Street.

Company officials are now trying to attract tenants to the building. There has been interest from service companies, engineering companies and others.

"I think (light rail) is going to be a huge impact," said Irgens Senior Vice President Michael O'Connor. "Every city needs rail, and I think it's going to be very well-received."

Light rail will also figure prominently into the future of GateWay Community College, said Susie Pulido, director of institutional advancement and entrepreneurial development at the school.

The campus at Washington and 40th streets is undergoing a master-planning process, and "we're looking to create public and private partnerships that will service the surrounding area and have workforce development that will benefit the college," she said.

That could include a heath clinic that allows students who are entering the medical field to get real-world experience.

The rail's initial impact will be felt by Valley residents who work and go to school along Washington Street.

Elizabeth Gomez, a single mother raising a 5-year-old son, is a student in GateWay's health-unit coordinating program. She hopes to eventually transfer to ASU.

Both campuses will be an easy commute on the light rail from her starting point near Central Avenue and Camelback Road.

"It's too much for gas," she said. "I'm just barely making it right now."

[Don B.]

^ Looking at the comments that follow this article, you would think it was 1499 here in Arizona. Good grief!

--don

[exit2lef]

As much as I support light rail, I think the Republic is getting carried away with the articles it has been running recently. Promising miracles everywhere along the line will only create unrealistic expectations and enable the rail-bashers to say "I told you so."

Washington Street is not a major destination, and light rail planning acknowledged that with its wide spacing of stations on that stretch. From 12th St. to 24th St. is 1.5 miles; from 24th St. to 38th St. is 1.75 miles. Compare these numbers to an average distance of .5 miles between stations elsewhere on the route. The article didn't even acknowledge these facts.

I don't blame anyone for the wide spacing since there is little to justify additional stations along Washington at this time, but the lack of stations at 16th St. and 32nd St. will make TOD difficult in those areas. The most optimistic scenario would be that so much development occurs near the stations at 12th St., 24th St., and Gateway Community College that additional infill stations are added. That has already occurred with the Center Parkway / Washington Station in Tempe, which was added to the line at the last minute when apartment and office complexes in the area agreed to fund it.

That's a very optimistic scenario, though. It's equally likely that light rail be successful in providing efficient transportation between TOD clusters west of 12th St. and east of 44th St., but will travel along an underutilized stretch of Washington in between.