Halifax Central Library | 27 m | 6 fl | Completed

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by haligonia

The recording studio is one of the best additions to the plans. Having a place where youth can go and just be creative seems like a perfect thing to have in a library.

Let's build them a movie studio too, and maybe give them a TV channel while they're at it.

You have to have limits. This is PUBLIC MONEY. More importantly, much of it is property tax money. This sort of thing has nothing to do with servicing property. Plus, there are any number of private recording studios in town. Why is HRM taking money out of their pockets?

This is becoming more and more ridiculous with each passing day. Someone should be keelhauled for this fleecing of the ratepayers of HRM.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

You have to have limits. This is PUBLIC MONEY. More importantly, much of it is property tax money. This sort of thing has nothing to do with servicing property. Plus, there are any number of private recording studios in town. Why is HRM taking money out of their pockets?

This is becoming more and more ridiculous with each passing day. Someone should be keelhauled for this fleecing of the ratepayers of HRM.

Yes, it's public money, but so are capital cost contributions as they are collecting on upfront infrastructure costs paid for with public money. And where does this CCC go? Paving roads and running services into phase 1000 of Burnside and Bayers Lake, which directly competes with private development areas like Dartmouth Crossing.

I'd rather see my money go toward a new library in the city. And on bike lanes! At least the library investment is making downtown Halifax a better place to live.

[visualman57]

no...people should be keel-hauled for building the crap that we usually have to put up with around here..... and for making us wait for 5 years or more while a bunch of narrow minded individuals living in the past fight anything that shows any modernity, height and style. Halifax needs and deserves buildings and developments that push the envelope, causing people to stop and look and to be proud of what we can do... not more 5-8 story cookie cutter suburban boxes of apartments.
The ratepayers of Halifax represent ALL the population, young, old, student and business person....who is to say that a recording studio or a cafe is not a great addition to the PUBLIC Library?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by visualman57

no...people should be keel-hauled for building the crap that we usually have to put up with around here..... and for making us wait for 5 years or more while a bunch of narrow minded individuals living in the past fight anything that shows any modernity, height and style. Halifax needs and deserves buildings and developments that push the envelope, causing people to stop and look and to be proud of what we can do... not more 5-8 story cookie cutter suburban boxes of apartments.
The ratepayers of Halifax represent ALL the population, young, old, student and business person....who is to say that a recording studio or a cafe is not a great addition to the PUBLIC Library?

Your logic is scrambled. I fully agree with your contention that design and development in this town stinks. That has nothing to do with profligate waste of public money on things that the municipality has no business being involved in. I would like free beer and an additional bathroom in my home - should HRM pay for those too?

[visualman57]

only if your house is a PUBLIC house.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Your logic is scrambled. I fully agree with your contention that design and development in this town stinks. That has nothing to do with profligate waste of public money on things that the municipality has no business being involved in. I would like free beer and an additional bathroom in my home - should HRM pay for those too?

No, but I'd be all for free beer and additional bathrooms in the NEW library!

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

There is no justification for even one cafe, let alone two. The area is overrun with cafes a stone's throw away. But perhaps Queen Judith will be able to get her cappuccinos more quickly with 2 in the building....

Can't say I agree. I think if they're rethinking what a library should be as a public resource, it makes sense to encourage people to stay longer and use the space. That seems to be the genesis for many of the planning and design moves.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

With two cafes I really hope one is recognizable and one is a local brand. ...

I'd prefer not to see any branding on permanent cafe facilities.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by planarchy

Yes, it's public money, but so are capital cost contributions as they are collecting on upfront infrastructure costs paid for with public money. And where does this CCC go? Paving roads and running services into phase 1000 of Burnside and Bayers Lake, which directly competes with private development areas like Dartmouth Crossing.

I'd rather see my money go toward a new library in the city. And on bike lanes! At least the library investment is making downtown Halifax a better place to live.

Agreed

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Let's build them a movie studio too, and maybe give them a TV channel while they're at it.

You have to have limits. This is PUBLIC MONEY. More importantly, much of it is property tax money. This sort of thing has nothing to do with servicing property. Plus, there are any number of private recording studios in town. Why is HRM taking money out of their pockets?

This is becoming more and more ridiculous with each passing day. Someone should be keelhauled for this fleecing of the ratepayers of HRM.

I think the recording studio is a good idea for a few reasons. It gives youth and amateur musicians who would otherwise not be able to afford to record the opportunity to have their work heard, which in turn increases the number of productive musicians in the city, improving the local music scene and solidifying Halifax's status as a major entertainment hub. In many cases these are teens who would otherwise be committing crimes or causing other problems. It also brands Halifax as "a city that has a public recording studio", which makes the city more appealing to creative types. In these ways, it represents a very tangible investment in arts and culture, and if nothing else, will at least placate for a while the loud segment of the population who have been demanding such investment from the city.

Although it is a tangible investment, it's not a very expensive one. Presumably it will just be a small, soundproof room with basic recording equipment. The studio could likely buy a few quality general-use microphones, a mixer, and some professional grade audio editing software for less than $2000 (that's less than $0.01 for every taxpayer in HRM), and the studio would not have any real operating costs. Professional musicians who can afford to do so would likely still use the "commercial" studios nearby, since they tend to have things like multiple recording spaces with different acoustic qualities, different specialized microphones, and bulky instruments like pianos and drum kits on site.

[Waye Mason]

I think the fact that the king of cafes in Halifax, Gordon Stevens, is on the library board and the fundraising committee and he thinks the cafes are a good idea speaks volumes.

The inclusion of diverse public space like the cafes and the roof top patio reminds my of many elements I like about the AGO in Toronto.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

I think the fact that the king of cafes in Halifax, Gordon Stevens, is on the library board and the fundraising committee and he thinks the cafes are a good idea speaks volumes.

The inclusion of diverse public space like the cafes and the roof top patio reminds my of many elements I like about the AGO in Toronto.

Or perhaps Mr. Stevens believes he can run the cafes. One hopes that such blatant conflict of interest will be quashed, although everything about this project would suggest otherwise.

One hopes that the budget for this boondoggle is being examined very closely. I am now setting the over/under on this at $75 million capital. The operating budget will be gigantic. The "no limits" philosophy will have a great negative impact on the rest of HRM - I expect we will see a reduction in sidewalk maintenance, road repairs, and other capital projects since this will suck up much of the overall budget. We should also expect either a significant tax increase or a reduction in services once the operating budgets come to light. This could be the library that ate Halifax.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

The building looks phenomenal. Can't wait to see it finished.

The municipality's capital contribution is $23.7 million, and a large amount of this will be paid for through land sales. I don't see how this breaks the capital budget. This single project is no more likely to break the bank, now or down the road, then any other big capital project in HRM, such as the Nova Centre, Canada Games Aquatic Centre, Bridge Terminal, Washmill Lake Overpass, Bedford Fourplex, etc.

If you don't like the project that's fine, but to suggest it will bring financial ruin upon HRM is a big stretch. The real infrastructure projects that hurt are the continued expansion of sewer, water, road, transit, etc. to suburban areas that may or may not generate enough tax revenue to finance the long-term maintenance of that infrastructure.

[SekishikiMeikaiHa]

Weekly updates:

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

We should also expect either a significant tax increase or a reduction in services once the operating budgets come to light. This could be the library that ate Halifax.

Obviously the library will be a money pit but it's an investment the same way that the new convention centre is an investment. It will make downtown Halifax a better place to live and study and a more interesting place to visit. A lot of people out there would also be impressed by the fact that a new library was considered a bigger priority than a new arena or stadium. Halifax already has a reputation as a highly educated/academic city, and this gives that reputation a nice boost. This can be more important that most people realize: I know a lot of people who would avoid visiting Calgary because it has a reputation as being a city full of narrow-minded rednecks who only care about money. Obviously this is not true of most Calgarians but this is the image that the city has been cultivating for the past several decades. The fact that most Haligonians don't see the new library as a waste of money speaks volumes about the kind of place Halifax is.

So in theory, the library will make inner-city Halifax a slightly more desirable place to live, meaning that more people will want to move there and fewer will want to leave. More people will likely visit on a day to day basis as well. This is good for businesses in the area, and broadens the market for residential development, which in turn leads to more private investment and a larger tax base. While the library will obviously cost money, I would be very surprised if the net result of its existence will be fewer available tax dollars after a few years. I admit this would be pretty hard to measure.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

The municipality's capital contribution is $23.7 million, and a large amount of this will be paid for through land sales. I don't see how this breaks the capital budget.

That is the contribution based upon the original capital budget. I believe it is a foregone conclusion that this project will have significant overruns - I am estimating in the $20 million range. HRM is on the hook for all of that. So say $45 million total - do you think that is insignificant even for an entity the size of HRM?

I am concerned that with the "no limits" philosophy that the cheerleaders for this project have adopted, that there will be no consequences if and when the screw-ups come to light and the overruns have to be paid for. Not to mention the ongoing burden of the operating costs.

[Halifax Hillbilly]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That is the contribution based upon the original capital budget. I believe it is a foregone conclusion that this project will have significant overruns - I am estimating in the $20 million range. HRM is on the hook for all of that. So say $45 million total - do you think that is insignificant even for an entity the size of HRM?

I am concerned that with the "no limits" philosophy that the cheerleaders for this project have adopted, that there will be no consequences if and when the screw-ups come to light and the overruns have to be paid for. Not to mention the ongoing burden of the operating costs.

I never said it's insignificant. I believe it's a reasonable contribution considering the importance of the library and the importance of the site. HRM clung to the decrepit and very undersized former library long after it was an acceptable home. To me this new library starts to reverse decades of under-investment in both the central library and the peninsula.

In general the city cheaps out on infrastructure - look at our 'bus terminals' before Bridge Terminal. Look at our street furniture. Look at our parks. Look at the potential streetscape projects on Quinpool, Spring Garden and Argyle - no cash, even though they'd likely pay for themselves in the long term development opportunities. We even cheaped out on the Harbour clean-up, and in return get big problems and the ugliest building in the city on a prime site next to downtown.

You don't build a great city cheap. Consider some of the buildings in Halifax pre-1940s: Province House; Government House; Bank of NS Building; the Dominion Building; All Saints Cathedral; St. Mary's Basilica; etc. We built great buildings when we were significantly less wealthy and had less technology. Yes this library is expensive, but it's the first signature building built in this city in at least a generation. There's a general feeling that Halifax can't get anything done, has no vision, has no follow through: this library bucks that trend. I can't think of a better location, or a better institution than a library, or a better priority than on community and education, for us to invest in.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

In general the city cheaps out on infrastructure - look at our 'bus terminals' before Bridge Terminal.

And we spent big bucks - I believe $17 million? - on the new terminal and you cannot buy a cup of coffee, a magazine or even get change for the bus there. There is no place to sit outside either. It is a major disappointment for that amount of money.

You don't build a great city cheap. Consider some of the buildings in Halifax pre-1940s: Province House; Government House; Bank of NS Building; the Dominion Building; All Saints Cathedral; St. Mary's Basilica; etc. We built great buildings when we were significantly less wealthy and had less technology.

None of those were built by the city. And rightly so, since it is not the city's job to build landmark buildings. Their job is to provide property-related services to ratepayers.

Yes this library is expensive, but it's the first signature building built in this city in at least a generation. There's a general feeling that Halifax can't get anything done, has no vision, has no follow through: this library bucks that trend.

Based on the transit terminal at the bridge, that feeling seems correct.

I can't think of a better location, or a better institution than a library, or a better priority than on community and education, for us to invest in.

Ah, the "no limits" argument again. A corollary of the old "we can't afford NOT to" chestnut. You need something better than that to justify recording studios, Playstations, and twin cafes in a public building.

Needless to say, I can think of any number of things that $20-$30 million in capital could have been better used for aside from this monument.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

None of those were built by the city. And rightly so, since it is not the city's job to build landmark buildings. Their job is to provide property-related services to ratepayers.

*phew* I'm so glad the city's isn't investing in a stadium then... It's apparently not the city's job.

Or perhaps you mean if the municipal government does invest in something, it should be mediocre?

But oh wait: THEN you would be complaining about the poor quality...

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Obviously the library will be a money pit but it's an investment the same way that the new convention centre is an investment. It will make downtown Halifax a better place to live and study and a more interesting place to visit. A lot of people out there would also be impressed by the fact that a new library was considered a bigger priority than a new arena or stadium. Halifax already has a reputation as a highly educated/academic city, and this gives that reputation a nice boost. This can be more important that most people realize: I know a lot of people who would avoid visiting Calgary because it has a reputation as being a city full of narrow-minded rednecks who only care about money. Obviously this is not true of most Calgarians but this is the image that the city has been cultivating for the past several decades. The fact that most Haligonians don't see the new library as a waste of money speaks volumes about the kind of place Halifax is.

So in theory, the library will make inner-city Halifax a slightly more desirable place to live, meaning that more people will want to move there and fewer will want to leave. More people will likely visit on a day to day basis as well. This is good for businesses in the area, and broadens the market for residential development, which in turn leads to more private investment and a larger tax base. While the library will obviously cost money, I would be very surprised if the net result of its existence will be fewer available tax dollars after a few years. I admit this would be pretty hard to measure.

Well said.