Federal Government & Politics II

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

As for Sweden.. it's interesting that they had, over the entire period of the pandemic, one of the lowest excess death rates in the world (lower than Canada's) with minimal regulations - despite their very high excess death rate at the beginning (Sweden did horribly compared to other countries in the initial wave, but consistently outperformed its peers from the summer of 2020 onwards).

Got a source on those excess death numbers? Because their COVID deaths were far higher than Canada per capita. Close to double.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Got a source on those excess death numbers? Because their COVID deaths were far higher than Canada per capita. Close to double.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

COVID deaths per capita is a poor metric due to differences between health systems of how covid deaths are counted - some counted it only if COVID was considered the "primary" cause of death, others counted anyone who died while COVID positive, and the guidelines for handling cases where a person died of COVID and a bunch of other stuff all at once can vary. For example if someone with advanced terminal cancer gets COVID while in palliative care, is that a COVID death or a cancer death? Different public health agencies in different countries will answer that question differently. Plus jurisdictions with higher average ages or worse overall health (ie. Higher smoking rates or higher obesity rates) would generally have a higher death rate per capita, all else equal.

So excess deaths - the rate at which total deaths exceed the expected level based on recent history - is a more useful tool for comparing countries to each other for the sake of evaluating pandemic policy effectiveness.

Canada performed better than most of Europe, but not as well as Sweden. In early 2023, Statistics Canada reported that there were 7.6 per cent more deaths than expected between March 2020 and August 2022. Of the country’s 53,741 excess deaths, 42,215 have been attributed directly to COVID-19. Canada beat Europe’s average excess mortality rate of 11.1 per cent from 2020 to 2022, but not Sweden’s 4.4 per cent.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...30112c-eng.htm

https://twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/...576478705?s=20

Canada's exceed death figure of 53,741 is notably higher than our COVID death figure of 42,215 for the same period - implying that we either undercounted COVID deaths or possibly that other causes of death increased unrelated to COVID (like drug overdoses or suicides). Wonder of anyone has done a deep dive into the reasons for that gap.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

COVID deaths per capita is a poor metric due to differences between health systems of how covid deaths are counted - some counted it only if COVID was considered the "primary" cause of death, others counted anyone who died while COVID positive, and the guidelines for handling cases where a person died of COVID and a bunch of other stuff all at once can vary. For example if someone with advanced terminal cancer gets COVID while in palliative care, is that a COVID death or a cancer death? Different public health agencies in different countries will answer that question differently. Plus jurisdictions with higher average ages or worse overall health (ie. Higher smoking rates or higher obesity rates) would generally have a higher death rate per capita, all else equal.

So excess deaths - the rate at which total deaths exceed the expected level based on recent history - is a more useful tool for comparing countries to each other for the sake of evaluating pandemic policy effectiveness.



https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...30112c-eng.htm

https://twitter.com/MartinKulldorff/...576478705?s=20

Canada's exceed death figure of 53,741 is notably higher than our COVID death figure of 42,215 for the same period - implying that we either undercounted COVID deaths or possibly that other causes of death increased unrelated to COVID (like drug overdoses or suicides). Wonder of anyone has done a deep dive into the reasons for that gap.

All of this isn't even controversial anymore though their Nordic neighbours mostly did nearly as well so the lack of lockdown wasn't necessarily better for excess deaths as much as it didn't matter.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. But the question is what happens when a region ends up in a different climate band?

There's a great simulator that was discussed in the journal Nature that shows how cities shift in climate by 2080.

https://fitzlab.shinyapps.io/cityapp/

There's a few Canadian cities listed. And the changes vary substantially. Under the high emissions scenario, Quebec City ends up with the climate of Chatham, ON, while Vancouver ends up with the climate of Seattle.

So far with warming temperatures here we have seen wetter Springs and Summers on average but it still varies from year to year. There will still be the jet stream and factors giving precipitation. Definitely warmer temperature on average. We have noticed the differences here mostly in the Spring and Fall.

[Black Star]

Hey Liberals and the ndp disaster....https://youtu.be/dHvn1VH7q0E?si=g-63KLehYEz76kAy

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Still, it’s impressive that small-scale agriculture is possible in Wawa.
I was driving through some deforested land to get to the high scenic falls of Magpie River, but I couldn’t figure out what the land was used for. It didn’t look agricultural. Any idea??

I believe it's cleared land being used to grow the blueberries.

[kool maudit]

Canada went crazy on COVID-19. I am not talking about specific policies, but about how people were. It was spurred on by anxieties about populism, the Trump era in the US and Canada's attachment to a very 1990s, almost "Starfleet" kind of societal ideal, so compliance to nearly any image of scientific expertise was preferable to resembling the agitated, backwater outgroup in any way whatsoever.

When you are steered by your outgroup in that way, you will accept almost anything in order to remain their invert. Neil Ferguson's models were hysterical dogshit and so was all that stuff you were doing with panels of plexiglass in public. I can't believe it is still acceptable to suggest we should live as Canadians did during the pandemic.

As recently as August of this year, I got a message from a Canadian friend on WhatsApp: "so I tested positive". I actually didn't even think about the coronavirus until I called him, it sounded like something out of Angels in America.

My god was I glad to be living in Sweden for those years. The best thing Anders Tegnell said during early 2020 was that "we must remember that normalcy has a value".

I swear, you guys start seeing enough grubby Southern whites shouting down Scientology and you'll all start tithing to David Miscavige.

[Marshsparrow]

Super proud of Pierre to rise in the HoC to call the Rainbow Bridge incident "terrorism" - he knew, he had all the facts, he was briefed (not having security information) - BUT he knew TERRORISM well before anyone else and made it all about politics - facts do matter and he had none - what a CLOWN.

[MolsonExport]

I know several people (and quite a few relatives of people that I know) that died from Covid prior to when the vaccine was available.

That is what the lockdowns were for. To minimize deaths, when there was no vaccine. To prevent our hospitals from being completely overwhelmed (and healthcare workers from becoming completely burnt out).

Memories are short, because it was inconvenient. Yeah, nobody liked the lockdowns. I had to deal with my brother's death (and emptying his house in Montreal) in the middle of the most severe lockdown.

What would you have had the government do instead? Nothing?

And fuck those that want to cherrypick statistics to suit their narrative. Shameful

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Super proud of Pierre to rise in the HoC to call the Rainbow Bridge incident "terrorism" - he knew, he had all the facts, he was briefed (not having security information) - BUT he knew TERRORISM well before anyone else and made it all about politics - facts do matter and he had none - what a CLOWN.

What a fucking asstard. Politicizing something that isn't political, just to rile up the Karen Konvoy Krowd. You've got to keep the people scared, right Pierre? Give that guy another apple to munch on.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Black Star

Hey Liberals and the ndp disaster....https://youtu.be/dHvn1VH7q0E?si=g-63KLehYEz76kAy

Take better care of your liver.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

What would you have had the government do instead? Nothing?

And fuck those that want to cherrypick statistics to suit their narrative. Shameful

For shame, for heaven's sake, fuck this, fuck that. No wonder Canada was so hysterical if this is how even satisfied supporters who see no alternative sound at the end of 2023.

There is no way to avoid a purity spiral with this degree of high dudgeon.

Curfews in Montreal, little plastic booths in Wal-mart, cordoned off parts of Canadian Tire.

Canadians went mad. Swedes remained mostly sane. I saw them both side by side and that's how it was.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Canadians went mad. Swedes remained mostly sane. I saw them both side by side and that's how it was.

It is absolutely clear that this is because a tangential cultural battle was being played out through pandemic policy. Compliance with even the most absurd and esoteric restrictions was a way to signal "fuck antivaxxers, fuck Trump, respect science #believeallwomen #BLM", that whole post-2015 thing.

Here, the most anti-vaccine people were old lefties. Right-wingers wanted vaccine passports. That hit the Anglo-world messaging obliquely and kind of fizzled, so things could be more dispassionate.

You guys got too into it because of US politics and it still follows those lines, as will any ensuing discussion here. Canada was a silly place during those years.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

For shame, for heaven's sake, fuck this, fuck that. No wonder Canada was so hysterical if this is how even satisfied supporters who see no alternative sound at the end of 2023.

There is no way to avoid a purity spiral with this degree of high dudgeon.

Curfews in Montreal, little plastic booths in Wal-mart, cordoned off parts of Canadian Tire.

Canadians went mad. Swedes remained mostly sane. I saw them both side by side and that's how it was.

No matter that proportionately many more Swedes died from Covid. And if you read my post more thoroughly you would recognize that I was speaking specifically about pre-vaccine days, so your point about "Right"-wingers advocating for vaccine passports is invalid.

You are upset at my language? (my solitary use of the word 'fuck'?) People died when they didn't have to. People that I know.

There is no way to avoid a purity spiral with this degree of high dudgeon.

What does this even mean? I am not a stupid person, but must you always write in poetry? It obfuscates understanding, and it is a very pretentious manner of speaking, even if it impresses some people.

[Truenorth00]

Based on comments from Prof. Mike Moffat, the housing expert that the LPC invited to the convention, next summer is going to be devastating. He pointed out that the economic update has no immediate relief for housing and next summer when even more foreign students come in, more single family homes are going to be converted to student housing. Rents are going to go up and affordability is going to be worse across the board. I hope nobody is surprised when the polls inevitably reflect this choice.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Here, the most anti-vaccine people were old lefties. Right-wingers wanted vaccine passports.

That is not at all how I remember it. But I suspect your social circles give you this impression.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Canada went crazy on COVID-19. I am not talking about specific policies, but about how people were. It was spurred on by anxieties about populism, the Trump era in the US and Canada's attachment to a very 1990s, almost "Starfleet" kind of societal ideal, so compliance to nearly any image of scientific expertise was preferable to resembling the agitated, backwater outgroup in any way whatsoever.

When you are steered by your outgroup in that way, you will accept almost anything in order to remain their invert. Neil Ferguson's models were hysterical dogshit and so was all that stuff you were doing with panels of plexiglass in public. I can't believe it is still acceptable to suggest we should live as Canadians did during the pandemic.

As recently as August of this year, I got a message from a Canadian friend on WhatsApp: "so I tested positive". I actually didn't even think about the coronavirus until I called him, it sounded like something out of Angels in America.

My god was I glad to be living in Sweden for those years. The best thing Anders Tegnell said during early 2020 was that "we must remember that normalcy has a value".

I swear, you guys start seeing enough grubby Southern whites shouting down Scientology and you'll all start tithing to David Miscavige.

Funny when you started I thought perhaps it might be in reference to when Canadians actually lost their mind and besieged our capital for a month and plotted to murder RCMP officers at the border crossing.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

What does this even mean? I am not a stupid person, but must you always write in poetry? It obfuscates understanding, and it is a very pretentious manner of speaking, even if it impresses some people.

We're both old dogs and we're not going to change our communication styles, least of all in response to barbs thrown on skyscraperpage.com.

You know very well what all of those words mean, and that sentence.

There is no reliable constituency of people who lived through COVID-19 in Stockholm who would, looking back, prefer to have done whatever you were doing in Toronto and Montreal. The reverse isn't true.

Beyond that, I have even less desire to argue about Canadian COVID-19 measures now than I did then. It was plainly absurd.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That is not at all how I remember it. But I suspect your social circles give you this impression.

Really? The Moderates were actively gunning for Magda Andersson with a proposal for vaccine mandates on all events over 7 people, even as her experiment with much less restrictive mandates was proving unpopular. In terms of party politics, it was absolutely the case that the right-wing were the pandemic hawks. I will grant that social impressions can be subjective, but in terms of S vs. M, it was like that.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It is absolutely clear that this is because a tangential cultural battle was being played out through pandemic policy. Compliance with even the most absurd and esoteric restrictions was a way to signal "fuck antivaxxers, fuck Trump, respect science #believeallwomen #BLM", that whole post-2015 thing.

Here, the most anti-vaccine people were old lefties. Right-wingers wanted vaccine passports. That hit the Anglo-world messaging obliquely and kind of fizzled, so things could be more dispassionate.

You guys got too into it because of US politics and it still follows those lines, as will any ensuing discussion here. Canada was a silly place during those years.

This seemed to be the case in the UK as well, at least in the case that a lot of the restrictions were pushed by the Tory establishment. It may be different than Sweden in that this represented a lot of older monied people who were both more concerned about personal health issues but also weren't as impacted by any potential restrictions. Our lens was through the American viewpoint which positioned this as a strict left/right split in the opposite way.

I'm not going to fault Canada on initial reactions as the whole world seemed to go a bit crazy - excusable since we didn't really know what was happening at the time. Friends in South Africa for instance experienced a LOT worse (and are still suffering repercussions). When things started getting a little silly to me was about halfway through - vaccines were out and uptake was high yet certain Provinces enacted some of the strictest rules since the beginning. At that point most people were fed up from my experience and stopped caring about compliance to the letter. Those who weren't became the most extreme at shaming anyone for doing, well... anything. It also meant we went from empty establishments to packed bars/restaurants almost overnight (even with capacity restrictions) when things lifted. Much to the chagrin of those who wanted us to stay inside forever. It all seemed very reactionary.

BC seemed to handle things most reasonably looking back.