Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[Aylmer]

This is one of the reasons I think that the PoW is more of a worthwhile project for Ottawa than for Gatineau. L1 between Bayview and Lyon is always going to be a crunch. Extending L2 across to Terrasses has the potential to shift several thousand Hull-bound riders who currently take L1 to either Pimisi (for the 85) or Lyon (for the STO).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

To prevent swamping the Spirits with transfers from Line 2, we need to either cross Line 2 over the PoW to Zibi or double the frequency (as opposed to double the size of trains, the option the city opted for). It won't take long after Trillium Stage 2 opens before the City realizes it needs to resolve the over-crowding issues at Bayview. They'll have 2 to 3 years to come up with a solution (while they still have spare Stage 2 trains to bolster the capacity).

I disagree that there will be capacity issues at Bayview. Up until now, the vast, vast majority of those using the Trillium line are going to/from Carleton and the trains have been running full with students. Thus on day 1, the trains will be over half full with students and that will continue to grow. As a result, the trains will be fullest at Careleton, not Bayview.

When you consider that they are building the line to have sufficient capacity for 30 years (without any increases to capacity), the trains will be no where near full on day 1, so if over 200 students are getting off at Carleton, a very small number will be continuing on to Bayview.

On top of that, the new Ottawa Hospital Civic campus, will be another destination on the line. As a result, even when the line reaches peak capacity, I would expect only be at a quarter of its capacity when it gets to Bayview.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I disagree that there will be capacity issues at Bayview. Up until now, the vast, vast majority of those using the Trillium line are going to/from Carleton and the trains have been running full with students. Thus on day 1, the trains will be over half full with students and that will continue to grow. As a result, the trains will be fullest at Careleton, not Bayview.

When you consider that they are building the line to have sufficient capacity for 30 years (without any increases to capacity), the trains will be no where near full on day 1, so if over 200 students are getting off at Carleton, a very small number will be continuing on to Bayview.

On top of that, the new Ottawa Hospital Civic campus, will be another destination on the line. As a result, even when the line reaches peak capacity, I would expect only be at a quarter of its capacity when it gets to Bayview.

I agree to a point, but you're forgetting about the extension to the south. There will be a shift in riders who currently use the 97, 99 or 294 to Hurdman. Once Line 2 opens they will take it to Bayview instead. This is in addition to new riders attracted to transit by a train to their community. Bayview will be a busy spot.

[OTownandDown]

I agree with you, for now, but what about when the line is fully extended to BarfHaven? In the morning, especially, if the trains are full of commuters coming from both the north (Gatin-oh-no) and south (Barfhaven), and everyone alighting at Bayview and continuing east to downtown, and the eastbound L1 train is already full of commuters coming from the West, where will all those people go (Assuming all trains are the same size).

I was at Lyon Station during construction, and noted a tunnel being built from the concourse level extending southwards. A construction worker told me its a connection tunnel to a future line running one block south. Could L2 simply be extended to downtown and split at Bayview?

Originally Posted by roger1818

I disagree that there will be capacity issues at Bayview. Up until now, the vast, vast majority of those using the Trillium line are going to/from Carleton and the trains have been running full with students. Thus on day 1, the trains will be over half full with students and that will continue to grow. As a result, the trains will be fullest at Careleton, not Bayview.

When you consider that they are building the line to have sufficient capacity for 30 years (without any increases to capacity), the trains will be no where near full on day 1, so if over 200 students are getting off at Carleton, a very small number will be continuing on to Bayview.

On top of that, the new Ottawa Hospital Civic campus, will be another destination on the line. As a result, even when the line reaches peak capacity, I would expect only be at a quarter of its capacity when it gets to Bayview.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

They keep saying that the issue is “capacity at Bayview Station” and while that is somewhat true, the bigger issue is that, as the CBC article says, a transfer at Bayview “would require the city buy up to 12 additional trains.” That would add significant cost to OCTranspo and will accelerate the need for the line to be upgraded.

I fail to see the downside here if somebody is willing to pony up for the trains. That would mean fantastic frequency on Line 1. What's bad about that?

All that said I think a Line 2 PoW connection is a separate issue from getting STO riders to the downtown core. Too far West for them. That connection should happen though to make it easier for Ottawa riders not going to downtown Hull and Gatineau riders bound for southern and western Ottawa.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I agree to a point, but you're forgetting about the extension to the south. There will be a shift in riders who currently use the 97, 99 or 294 to Hurdman. Once Line 2 opens they will take it to Bayview instead. This is in addition to new riders attracted to transit by a train to their community. Bayview will be a busy spot.

I am not "forgetting about the extension to the south." As I said, up until now, the trains have been full with most of the passengers being students going to/from Carleton. Assuming the number of students using the line continues to grow, over half of the capacity of the train will be students, only leaving room for less than half of the train's capacity for those going further north.

Regarding routes 97, 99 or 294, how many passengers are they transporting south of South Keys combined? Is it over 1000 pphpd during peak periods (i.e. a crushed bus every 6 minutes) to generate over 200 passengers per train? I expect that OC Transpo will still be running Rapid and Connexion buses to Hurdman from areas north of the Airport.

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I agree with you, for now, but what about when the line is fully extended to BarfHaven?

As we told you before, there are no plans to extend the Trillium Line to Barrhaven. The Confederation Line will be extended to it first. Sure it might eventually happen, but most Barrhaven residents .

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

In the morning, especially, if the trains are full of commuters coming from both the north (Gatin-oh-no)

Similarly there are no plans to extend the Trillium Line to Gatineau either. The plan is for the STO to use the Portage Bridge. If the PoW bridge is ever used for trains, it would be for transporting people to/from western Ottawa, not downtown.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I fail to see the downside here if somebody is willing to pony up for the trains. That would mean fantastic frequency on Line 1. What's bad about that?

Do you think STO will agree to pay to both purchase the trains and operate them (including maintenance) in perpetuity and continue to buy more as demand increases? If the did it would likely only be for operation from Bayview to uOttawa.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

All that said I think a Line 2 PoW connection is a separate issue from getting STO riders to the downtown core. Too far West for them. That connection should happen though to make it easier for Ottawa riders not going to downtown Hull and Gatineau riders bound for southern and western Ottawa.

I tend to agree. Even then, since they have decided to use the Portage Bridge, the value of the PoW bridge is greatly diminished compared to if they had decided to use the Alexandra Bridge.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I agree to a point, but you're forgetting about the extension to the south. There will be a shift in riders who currently use the 97, 99 or 294 to Hurdman. Once Line 2 opens they will take it to Bayview instead. This is in addition to new riders attracted to transit by a train to their community. Bayview will be a busy spot.

Just as the Vimy bridge flooded traffic east of the river, the Phase 2 extension of the Trillium Line will encourage many Barrhaven residents to change their commute pattern and head over to Limebank Station. The Barrhaven extension from Baseline is many, many years away. Phase 2 converts the 'student train' to more and more a commuter line and this will change more with each coming year. Not only that, but the Phase 2 extension will encourage a surge of growth in Riverside South to accelerate that change. For many, the awkward commute from Riverside South will be over.

My earlier comment about the Bayview transfer will gradually become a problem. It may take several years. However, a STO main connection at Bayview will create an immediate crisis.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Do you think STO will agree to pay to both purchase the trains and operate them (including maintenance) in perpetuity and continue to buy more as demand increases? If the did it would likely only be for operation from Bayview to uOttawa.

Anything can be negotiated.

12 vehicles is about $100 million. Not chump change. But not something that the Feds and Queen's Park couldn't pay for.

Personally, I'd be okay with any deal where somebody else pays the acquisition cost. And we can pay the operations and maintenance costs. We are after all benefiting from a higher level of service.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Anything can be negotiated.

12 vehicles is about $100 million. Not chump change. But not something that the Feds and Queen's Park couldn't pay for.

Personally, I'd be okay with any deal where somebody else pays the acquisition cost. And we can pay the operations and maintenance costs. We are after all benefiting from a higher level of service.

Whether trains come every 2.5 minutes or 3.5 minutes is almost immaterial. Any extra cost would be better invested in the bus network.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Whether trains come every 2.5 minutes or 3.5 minutes is almost immaterial. Any extra cost would be better invested in the bus network.

We all know there is no operating budget increase coming for buses out of sheer generosity. So I'd rather take what we can get from a deal that would happen to help regional connectivity too.

And higher frequencies may not be relevant to you but they most certainly would be to anybody who is traveling from beyond the short-turn terminus, where they have double the headways. At minimum...

[OTownandDown]

You don't think Barrhaven passengers will use the Trillium line? If I lived anywhere within 5km of Limebank, I would definitely consider the drive to Limebank or even Earl Armstrong. Isn't that the point of those two stations in a field? I think ridership on the Trillium will immediately spike when this is complete, especially considering the bus route vs. train. And ESPECIALLY considering the traffic nightmare for Barrhaven and points south travelling north and extremely high parking rates downtown.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I am not "forgetting about the extension to the south." As I said, up until now, the trains have been full with most of the passengers being students going to/from Carleton. Assuming the number of students using the line continues to grow, over half of the capacity of the train will be students, only leaving room for less than half of the train's capacity for those going further north.

Regarding routes 97, 99 or 294, how many passengers are they transporting south of South Keys combined? Is it over 1000 pphpd during peak periods (i.e. a crushed bus every 6 minutes) to generate over 200 passengers per train? I expect that OC Transpo will still be running Rapid and Connexion buses to Hurdman from areas north of the Airport.



As we told you before, there are no plans to extend the Trillium Line to Barrhaven. The Confederation Line will be extended to it first. Sure it might eventually happen, but most Barrhaven residents .



Similarly there are no plans to extend the Trillium Line to Gatineau either. The plan is for the STO to use the Portage Bridge. If the PoW bridge is ever used for trains, it would be for transporting people to/from western Ottawa, not downtown.



Do you think STO will agree to pay to both purchase the trains and operate them (including maintenance) in perpetuity and continue to buy more as demand increases? If the did it would likely only be for operation from Bayview to uOttawa.



I tend to agree. Even then, since they have decided to use the Portage Bridge, the value of the PoW bridge is greatly diminished compared to if they had decided to use the Alexandra Bridge.

[OCCheetos]

According to the Q1 budget report, $5 million is allocated for pier work on the bridge with around $235,000 already having been spent. Engineering designs I guess?

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

According to the Q1 budget report, $5 million is allocated for pier work on the bridge with around $235,000 already having been spent. Engineering designs I guess?

Good Day.

Also possibly a preliminary engineering survey of necessary repair work to the piers?
If there is any hope/chance/desire to use the PoW in any way, the piers at the very least have to be kept in good repair.

JAG.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Also possibly a preliminary engineering survey of necessary repair work to the piers?
If there is any hope/chance/desire to use the PoW in any way, the piers at the very least have to be kept in good repair.

JAG.

This cost is in-line with an engineering survey of existing conditions, with options in a report for upgrades.

I pity the engineer who has to look at these old and busted piers and trusses and somehow come up with a repair cost and a feasibility study. Lots of engineers would simply say '100% replacement to guarantee no risk'. It takes a special person to be able to justify repairs to large blobs of loose stone and washed out mortars to carry a train or a bus.

And who's going to lower the river so they can look at the base of these things? How is that even possible? If the dam is opened, power plants shut down, and water totally drained from the forebay of the Chaudiere, is it possible? God knows they're not going to build cofferdams only to provide a visual review of these things, and I'm not sure divers/cameras are even possible here, are they? So you're left with an educated guess as to what work is required below the water line, and large change orders in the future, or a report that lists '100% replacement' as the no-risk option.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I pity the engineer who has to look at these old and busted piers and trusses and somehow come up with a repair cost and a feasibility study. Lots of engineers would simply say '100% replacement to guarantee no risk'. It takes a special person to be able to justify repairs to large blobs of loose stone and washed out mortars to carry a train or a bus.

It's pretty similar to what's currently being done with the Rideau river bridge on the Trillium Line. IIRC only one bid included full replacement.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

It's pretty similar to what's currently being done with the Rideau river bridge on the Trillium Line. IIRC only one bid included full replacement.

Agreed. I think people have been looking at the Rideau river bridge more often. Its a modern mix of concrete, stone, and new-ish steel. Is the plan to twin that bridge?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Agreed. I think people have been looking at the Rideau river bridge more often. Its a modern mix of concrete, stone, and new-ish steel. Is the plan to twin that bridge?

I believe there is a plan to build a separate pedestrian bridge, but for Trillium Line use, it will be kept as a single track bridge for the foreseeable future.

[J.OT13]

Teen presumed dead after jumping off Prince of Wales Bridge

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...idge-1.5637735

Enough is enough, the City needs to do something about this bridge. Either fix it, sell it or demolish it. Feds should expropriate on the basis of neglect.

[kwoldtimer]

It should be demolished.

[rocketphish]

As tragic as this incident is, it wasn't the fault of the bridge.