Post some pictures of your city! II

[someone123]

The discussion inspired me to go through some of my old pictures of Halifax houses. You can see that they are sort of like the San Francisco houses but have distinct styles. One difference is the "storm porch", a little box around the doorway.











More modest housing in the North End (looking at some wooden housing with bay windows, not brick or wood "box" rowhouses that are the most common)





Older style; early Victorian or not Victorian at all (Georgian), and Scottish style.

[Nouvellecosse]

One thing I find interesting is that Halifax urban housing tends to have some space between buildings ranging from wide enough to act as a driveway to narrow enough that it's a tight squeeze for a person. There are examples that don't have any space like the final picture but that's more of an exception with most such examples being in the downtown north end. Back before I explored cities like Montreal, QC, and Saint John with more areas where residential buildings have no space between them, I always kind of fetishized the lack of space separation as being more urban and more aesthetically pleasing. Planners sometimes refer to this as porosity (when you can see further into spaces vs your view being more superficial).

But after spending time in those places I had second thoughts. I missed not having that extra dimension to explore visually. Walking around Halifax is very much a 3D experience since you not only get to explore the front facade of the buildings but also peer down into the spaces between them, seeing everything from side stairs adorned with flowers or vines, cool cars, balconies, decks and other architectural features, a glimpse of the backyard, interesting art, etc. You never really know what you'll see. But with a 2D experience you just don't get to see as much. On the other hand, the streets can feel more solid and imposing as a continuous streetwall. So now I'm honestly not sure which I prefer. Perhaps they're both good in different ways.

[someone123]

City planners in Halifax aggressively demolished the poorest and highest density areas in the 1950's and 60's, and that correlates with taller attached buildings. Many blocks like this were torn down:







Source


Source

Most stuff in the bottom half of this image (lots of row housing still survives in the upper half):



Those detached South End houses with brick walls were originally for much wealthier owners. And a lot of the old 3-4 floor wood rowhouse type buildings were tenements. You still see surviving bits of that higher density wood row housing in some areas.

I wonder what would have happened if the 60's money for utopian projects had just gone into fixing up the old buildings and building new buildings on empty or underused sites, without the social engineering mass demo aspect. I would imagine there isn't much difference between those pictures above and what some now-gentrified areas looked like back then. Another big difference would have been to put in transit instead of trying to retrofit the old road network for cars (there was also a lot of demolition of anything that made the street network irregular).

[Nouvellecosse]

^ That's really sad. I always wished we had more areas with that kind of scale and form and knowing that we actually had it makes it worse.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

One thing I find interesting is that Halifax urban housing tends to have some space between buildings ranging from wide enough to act as a driveway to narrow enough that it's a tight squeeze for a person. There are examples that don't have any space like the final picture but that's more of an exception with most such examples being in the downtown north end. Back before I explored cities like Montreal, QC, and Saint John with more areas where residential buildings have no space between them, I always kind of fetishized the lack of space separation as being more urban and more aesthetically pleasing. Planners sometimes refer to this as porosity (when you can see further into spaces vs your view being more superficial).

But after spending time in those places I had second thoughts. I missed not having that extra dimension to explore visually. Walking around Halifax is very much a 3D experience since you not only get to explore the front facade of the buildings but also peer down into the spaces between them, seeing everything from side stairs adorned with flowers or vines, cool cars, balconies, decks and other architectural features, a glimpse of the backyard, interesting art, etc. You never really know what you'll see. But with a 2D experience you just don't get to see as much. On the other hand, the streets can feel more solid and imposing as a continuous streetwall. So now I'm honestly not sure which I prefer. Perhaps they're both good in different ways.

In the older neighbourhoods of Montreal that developed before alleyways were common (pre-1870 or so) many buildings have a porte cochère that gives access to the backyard. Often they have a metal gate or even no barrier whatsoever, so you can peer into the inside of the block. It's the best of both worlds.

But I also find that alleyways offer something similar to what you're describing. Compared to somewhere like New York, the abundance of alleys in Montreal means you always have access to the inner life of a block.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

In the older neighbourhoods of Montreal that developed before alleyways were common (pre-1870 or so) many buildings have a porte cochère that gives access to the backyard. Often they have a metal gate or even no barrier whatsoever, so you can peer into the inside of the block. It's the best of both worlds.

If you're referring to what I'm thinking of I absolutely love those. Do you mean a passage way through a building like this? I wish there were more of them around. Those are better than just an alley for sure.

[someone123]

A lot of the driveway-sized holes along streets like Agricola used to be small rowhouses that got torn down. I am not sure it would be legal to rebuild them today.

An example of what I mean (see also ugly fake stone siding on the building next door): https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6541...7i13312!8i6656

[Kilgore Trout]

Yep, exactly that. Pretty common in neighbourhoods like the Faubourgs, St-Henri and parts of the lower Plateau.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Yep, exactly that. Pretty common in neighbourhoods like the Faubourgs, St-Henri and parts of the lower Plateau.

I definitely saw a few of those in Montreal. I'll have to explore those areas more on my next visit.

[zoomer]

Re: the passage way through and within the building, how are those functioning now? Thinking about the prevalence of drug use and a place to shelter from the weather - are they being gated now?

Great pictures someone123, some gorgeous historical streetscapes there. Sad to them go, yet some turnover and renewal is a good thing. Just would be nice if cities were more proactive and thoughtful in their support of architectural history.

Anyways, love the direction of this photo thread the past couple days with the emphasis on discussion, sharing and learning about the intricacies and history of other cities. As they say a picture is worth a lot of words..

Finally Rico - I’ve heard that Kingston comparison a fair bit, although I haven’t been there yet. Interesting you said ‘quiet’ because that’s a good observation, Victoria is quiet in many ways. First in terms of the literal - it really is quiet, something I especially notice after visiting other cities. You won’t find blaring music coming from stores or amplified street musicians, not a lot of car honking, etc. Also visually it’s quiet - no billboard advertisements are allowed, yes there are a lot of colourful flowers and houses, but it’s not loud or garish. The expensive properties tend to keep a low key profile or hidden behind hedges and not a lot of flashy cars, but vintage ones.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by zoomer

My mission here to dispel myths, the first that downtown ends abruptly and is surrounded by boring single family homes (see final picture) and that that there isn't a large historical stock of homes or neighbourhoods that are primarily historical in nature.

I spent several days in Victoria this September, and I was struck by some of the smaller differences when comparing it to Halifax, given that the two cities are often looked at as rough analogues (similar size, coastal cities, historic vibes, good downtowns, etc.)

Victoria had a more intact and well-preserved downtown which, as someone said above, exudes cozy appeal and has a ton of street life. Halifax's downtown is just as vibrant, but is much more of an architectural mish-mash.

On the other hand, Halifax's near-downtown neighbourhoods seemed to contain more mixed-use streetscapes that radiated street activity deeper into adjacent areas as well. And while both have lots of historic houses, the typology in the first ring of inner Halifax neighbourhoods is generally denser, with fewer large detached houses and more rowhouses and duplexes, or at least SFHs on smaller lots.

But as Someone123 said, many houses in Halifax has been stripped down and uglied up. The overall urbanity and density of the oldest housing stock is probably a notch above Victoria, but Victoria's generally seemed better cared for. Something I noticed about both Victoria and Vancouver's older areas was a refreshing lack of vinyl siding, which is really a plague out east, and badly cheapens the appearance of some areas. Halifax has lots of this and this, but also this and this.

At one point they all would have looked more like the first two links.

[phone]

Great Halifax pics! Love the intimacy of the residential streetscape. Those 1950s pics are quite atmospheric too, its a shame that many of those buildings were lost. I am sure there are people all over North America who empathize!

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

^ That's really sad. I always wished we had more areas with that kind of scale and form and knowing that we actually had it makes it worse.

Basically the whole area from Duke to Cogswell, and Rainnie to Barrington was like this, and extending quite a ways up Barrington as well. Not a vast area, all things considered, but sizable enough that losing it effectively shrunk the meaningful part of downtown, and replaced it with nothing but roads. We’ll see to what degree this lost urbanity is recovered by the Cogswell district redevelopment—obviously nothing will make up for losing a dense neighbourhood built up over 200 years, but I hope it expands the feel and size of the urban core.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

On the other hand, Halifax's near-downtown neighbourhoods seemed to contain more mixed-use streetscapes that radiated street activity deeper into adjacent areas as well. And while both have lots of historic houses, the typology in the first ring of inner Halifax neighbourhoods is generally denser, with fewer large detached houses and more rowhouses and duplexes, or at least SFHs on smaller lots.

Halifax is fairly decentralized due to the hospitals and universities, Dartmouth, naval yard and shipyard, the harbour and basin, etc.

I don't find Halifax and Victoria to be all that twin-like in the context of overall variation of Canadian cities. I think it is a bit of a meme that exists because most Canadians live away from the coast (think of a coastal location as a special trait but less likely to group "inland cities" like Kitchener and Winnipeg similarly) and there's no national cultural notion of an urban east coast in Canada with distinct urban characteristics compared to Ontario (one conception is that the Maritimes are like an eastern extension of Northern Ontario). It would be similar if Americans were enamored with the idea of twin Boston and San Diego. There's a fundamentally different urban plan and layout, different architectural styles, and the cities are from different phases of settlement of the continent. Some of the things that seem similar like being a provincial capital are not really as they seem. Victoria as capital of BC is very different from Halifax as basically a city-state. If you look at the 10 provincial capitals you'll see a lot of different towns like Toronto vs. Quebec City.

One difference I notice is Halifax is more of a risk-taking higher variance town and that shows up in the modern developments which have sometimes been good and sometimes bad. Victoria doesn't really have Cogswells or Scotia Squares or a Purdy's or Nova Centre.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Basically the whole area from Duke to Cogswell, and Rainnie to Barrington was like this, and extending quite a ways up Barrington as well. Not a vast area, all things considered, but sizable enough that losing it effectively shrunk the meaningful part of downtown, and replaced it with nothing but roads. We’ll see to what degree this lost urbanity is recovered by the Cogswell district redevelopment—obviously nothing will make up for losing a dense neighbourhood built up over 200 years, but I hope it expands the feel and size of the urban core.

It's too bad that so far there's almost zero awareness of the old history of this Cogswell-Barrington area or any drive to restore some of the character that used to exist. The plans and landscaping that have appeared so far look quite generic. There's been more talk from officials about cost recovery than what the city should get out of the project.

If it's developed in a semi-competent way it'll be a decent looking highrise area that provides useful living space and other things. But if it were done really well it would feel like a historic and natural part of the rest of downtown with a strong sense of place rather than a real estate development.

How do you bring back some of this?


Source

Not with office park landscaping..


Source

[Rico Rommheim]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Finally Rico - I’ve heard that Kingston comparison a fair bit, although I haven’t been there yet. Interesting you said ‘quiet’ because that’s a good observation, Victoria is quiet in many ways. First in terms of the literal - it really is quiet, something I especially notice after visiting other cities. You won’t find blaring music coming from stores or amplified street musicians, not a lot of car honking, etc. Also visually it’s quiet - no billboard advertisements are allowed, yes there are a lot of colourful flowers and houses, but it’s not loud or garish. The expensive properties tend to keep a low key profile or hidden behind hedges and not a lot of flashy cars, but vintage ones.

Interesting, I hadn't noticed the absence of adverts and billboards, but now I think back and yeah - I didn't see any. How lovely.

[zoomer]

Drybrain’s comment:

On the other hand, Halifax's near-downtown neighbourhoods seemed to contain more mixed-use streetscapes that radiated street activity deeper into adjacent areas as well. And while both have lots of historic houses, the typology in the first ring of inner Halifax neighbourhoods is generally denser, with fewer large detached houses and more rowhouses and duplexes, or at least SFHs on smaller lots.

Very true. Victoria historically was a much smaller and younger city which as someone123 referenced is why in many cases it’s quite dissimilar to Halifax. Victoria also never has been a city with much of an industrial base, thus less historical inner city housing for workers. After thousands of years of First Nations settlement, the British started as a fur trading fort in 1843, Vancouver Island became a British Crown Colony in 1849 to prevent the Americans from gaining control of the territory. It boomed in the lates 1850’s with the gold rush (as the provision/launch point for Americans heading into the BC interior), became the Pacific headquarters for the British Navy in 1865, and became the capital of BC in 1866. BC joined Canada in 1871 on the promise of being connected by rail to the rest of Canada with the end terminus being in Victoria:

“The initial plan was to directly link Montreal by rail all the way to Vancouver Island within a period of 10 years. The plan called for tracks to be laid to Bute Inlet, over 200 kilometres up the mainland coast from Vancouver. From where the tracks ended on the mainland, a bridge would be built to carry them to Sonora Island and then Quadra Island and on to Vancouver Island. The rail line would continue to Victoria, the promised terminus.”

The rest of the article quoted above is a great read, including such tidbits as John A. Macdonald was the representative for Victoria despite never having visited the city. Anyways, the point of this is that of course the promise was broken and Vancouver ended up being the terminus and Victoria’s fate was sealed. Since that time the focus became promoting tourism, government and becoming a playground/retirement haven for the wealthy. Which is why you see a lot of mansions near the downtown core and not a lot of worker housing.

Originally Posted by someone123

One difference I notice is Halifax is more of a risk-taking higher variance town and that shows up in the modern developments which have sometimes been good and sometimes bad. Victoria doesn't really have Cogswells or Scotia Squares or a Purdy's or Nova Centre.

True, Victoria hasn’t been a risk taker since the BC Parliament Buildings and Empress Hotel were built - which were somewhat insane to be built at the time considering how small the city was. Even today there is practically no chance buildings of such a large scale would be approved. I often say when the Big One hits and there is nothing of historical value left in Victoria, what will we be left with? Since Vancouver overtook Victoria in the early 1900’s a predominant theme has been that ‘we don’t want to be like Vancouver!’. Pros and cons to that of course, and because Victoria is reluctant to jump on bandwagons we have missed the worst of a lot of architectural trends over the years, or at least not be dominated by them. Small and quirky has worked well into creating a cohesive walkable city. That being said, the current city council for the first time in my lifetime has no concern for height limits. Many of them are new and moved recently to Victoria. With the highest prices in the country after Vancouver and Toronto developers are starting to realize they can propose bigger and better projects and being able to make money doing so. Should be interesting to see what emerges over the next couple decades. The one mitigating factor is that despite the wealth, the city like Vancouver is having a greater divide between rich and poor. There isn’t a city with a more hardcore NDP and Green core, with them running neck and neck provincially and federally with everyone else off the board. This group along with the ‘island lifestyle’ folks are still very suspicious of developers and large scale developments in general so that could be a dampening factor.

Ok, back to pictures - an example of very well maintained historical buildings in Victoria, this 1874 Gothic Revival cottage was restored in the 1990’s and it always looks immaculate. Crazy how it is always so perfect, not a speck of dirt on the porch steps, no bird poop on the wood walls, windows perfectly clean, the details precise.. just amazing.

1261 Richardson Street - November 1, 2023. 1:09 p.m. by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

And directly across the street from it is this old house, which has 9 separate units in it. That’s the thing about parts of Fairfield and the Rockland neighbourhoods of Victoria is that the old mansions actually bring a fair bit of density as they’ll have half a dozen up to a dozen or so suites within them, so basically an apartment building.

1276 Richardson Street - Wednesday, November 1, 2023. 2:10 p.m. by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

[Dwils01]

Some pictures from Kingston on my travels from Hamilton to Montreal.





















Pics by me.

[905er]

Love Kingston. That arch in the fountain has got to go... It obstructs the view of the limestone building and is otherwise just pointless.

[shappy]

There was a comment above that Victoria is reminiscent of Kingston but Kingston is a much older settlement and looks it. But I do think Victoria can sometimes resemble Ontario towns/cities pretty well but somehow something still feels off. Maybe the best comparison to Victoria would be an Australian city. Something like this would stick out like a sore thumb in Ontario (it would be mostly brown brick) but I feel would fit in pretty well in Brisbane or Perth.