HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #981  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 10:07 PM
kevinbottawa kevinbottawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,240
If the city is worried about cost, why own it at all? It's not going to get cheaper to refurbish. Sell it to the federal government and let them invest in it as a interprovincial transit crossing. I also think Ottawa and Gatineau needs to eventually look at having one transit system.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #982  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 11:23 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinbottawa View Post
If the city is worried about cost, why own it at all? It's not going to get cheaper to refurbish. Sell it to the federal government and let them invest in it as a interprovincial transit crossing. I also think Ottawa and Gatineau needs to eventually look at having one transit system.
You can't sell something with no value to the feds.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #983  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2019, 1:24 AM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Let's not let the NCC's grubby, obstructionist, pro-prettyism, anti-urban hands anywhere near it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #984  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2019, 2:24 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
You can't sell something with no value to the feds.
LOL, really? You really believe that is true?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #985  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2019, 2:42 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 27,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinbottawa View Post
If the city is worried about cost, why own it at all? It's not going to get cheaper to refurbish. Sell it to the federal government and let them invest in it as a interprovincial transit crossing. I also think Ottawa and Gatineau needs to eventually look at having one transit system.
The City shouldn't "sell" it to the Feds, but transfer it to them free of charge. If the City of Ottawa (and Gatineau) wants the Feds to swoop in a fix the bridge, be it for trains or pedestrians/cyclists, the Feds shouldn't have to pay to purchase the bridge since the Feds are doing a "favour" to Ottawa and Gatineau.

Interprovincial crossings is Federal jurisdiction and we (the City) should make that as simple as possible.

I agree, the Feds should take over OC Transpo and the STO to form a Federal District Transit Commission, similar to (but not exactly like) GO Transit, Washington Area Transit Authority or Translink. Although I would be worried this new transit agency might somehow become even more suburban centric.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #986  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2019, 3:27 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I agree, the Feds should take over OC Transpo and the STO to form a Federal District Transit Commission, similar to (but not exactly like) GO Transit, Washington Area Transit Authority or Translink. Although I would be worried this new transit agency might somehow become even more suburban centric.
I would also worry about accountability if the Feds were responsible for transit. With counsel having authority, each counsellor has a decent (but not undue) amount of power to make changes to meet public needs. With the Feds in charge, the local MPs have minimal power to make those changes, and we would be relying on cabinet to fix local issues.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #987  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2019, 4:53 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Interprovincial crossings is Federal jurisdiction and we (the City) should make that as simple as possible.

Federal *jurisdiction* is not the same thing as federal administrative or financial responsibility.
__________________
___
Enjoy my taxes, Orleans (and Kanata?).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #988  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2019, 6:46 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 28,370
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinbottawa View Post
If the city is worried about cost, why own it at all? It's not going to get cheaper to refurbish. Sell it to the federal government and let them invest in it as a interprovincial transit crossing. I also think Ottawa and Gatineau needs to eventually look at having one transit system.
I get the sentiment. But I mostly only see this from the Ottawa side. Doesn't seem to me that Gatineau residents are all that interested in a single transit system, much less one that is run by the federal government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
The City shouldn't "sell" it to the Feds, but transfer it to them free of charge. If the City of Ottawa (and Gatineau) wants the Feds to swoop in a fix the bridge, be it for trains or pedestrians/cyclists, the Feds shouldn't have to pay to purchase the bridge since the Feds are doing a "favour" to Ottawa and Gatineau.

Interprovincial crossings is Federal jurisdiction and we (the City) should make that as simple as possible.

I agree, the Feds should take over OC Transpo and the STO to form a Federal District Transit Commission, similar to (but not exactly like) GO Transit, Washington Area Transit Authority or Translink. Although I would be worried this new transit agency might somehow become even more suburban centric.
These are all great ideas until we come across the reality of Canada where Quebec jealously guards anything to do with its authority and sovereignty. How likely is it that Quebec would allow a federal transit authority to operate local transit in Gatineau?

It's not just transit. The whole NCR is poorly organized and federal real estate poorly managed compared to other capitals I've been to. And a good chunk of that dysfunction comes down to the complicated relationship that the feds have with the provinces involved. I don't see how you can have better transit management from the feds if this dysfunction continues to plague them after they take over the transit portfolio. I'd argue the only way to achieve the level of cohesion some here envision is for the NCR to become an independent federal territory. But we all know Quebec would never agree to anything that comes within light years of that idea.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #989  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2019, 7:26 PM
CityTech CityTech is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I would also worry about accountability if the Feds were responsible for transit. With counsel having authority, each counsellor has a decent (but not undue) amount of power to make changes to meet public needs. With the Feds in charge, the local MPs have minimal power to make those changes, and we would be relying on cabinet to fix local issues.
In a Commission set up, the system would be run by a board of commissioners, who could easily be appointees from the city councils of Ottawa and Gatineau.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #990  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2019, 8:55 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
In a Commission set up, the system would be run by a board of commissioners, who could easily be appointees from the city councils of Ottawa and Gatineau.
The Commission would still be an arms length away from council, reducing their ability to influence change. Also, would Ottawa and Gatineau get an equal number of commissioners? Gatineau wouldn't accept fewer than Ottawa as Ottawa could just do what they wanted and yet having an equal number could result in a deadlock. I guess the feds could appoint a chair without a vote but the ability to break ties.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #991  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 3:00 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 153
What do they mean by "awaits enforcement"?

https://www.facebook.com/15617564674...6316211619245/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #992  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 7:44 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allandale25 View Post
What do they mean by "awaits enforcement"?

https://www.facebook.com/15617564674...6316211619245/
Enforcement that the rail line across the POW bridge needs to remain active.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #993  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 8:19 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allandale25 View Post
What do they mean by "awaits enforcement"?

https://www.facebook.com/15617564674...6316211619245/
As mentioned in this article (dated February 20, 2018), the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) ordered the City to restore a portion of rail line leading to the Prince of Wales Bridge or move to permanently discontinue it.

However, as mentioned in this article (dated Apr 09, 2019), the federal cabinet has rescinded a the CTA's decision.

As a result, there is nothing to enforce, so MOOSE is just blowing smoke.

Last edited by roger1818; Jan 9, 2020 at 8:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #994  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2020, 5:33 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
As mentioned in this article (dated February 20, 2018), the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) ordered the City to restore a portion of rail line leading to the Prince of Wales Bridge or move to permanently discontinue it.

However, as mentioned in this article (dated Apr 09, 2019), the federal cabinet has rescinded a the CTA's decision.

As a result, there is nothing to enforce, so MOOSE is just blowing smoke.
Thanks!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #995  
Old Posted May 18, 2020, 7:08 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 153
"ANALYSIS: Rejection of Prince of Wales Bridge illustrates difficulty of planning Ottawa-Gatineau rail link"


https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...mpression=true

Last edited by Allandale25; May 18, 2020 at 7:09 PM. Reason: Fix
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #996  
Old Posted May 18, 2020, 8:31 PM
rocketphish's Avatar
rocketphish rocketphish is online now
Planet Ottawa and beyond
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Greater Ottawa
Posts: 14,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allandale25 View Post
"ANALYSIS: Rejection of Prince of Wales Bridge illustrates difficulty of planning Ottawa-Gatineau rail link"


https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...mpression=true
Rejection of Prince of Wales Bridge illustrates difficulty of planning Ottawa-Gatineau rail link

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: 1 hour ago • 4 minute read


The Ottawa-Gatineau region has struggled to attain an overarching public transit vision for interprovincial travel, as illustrated by last week’s acknowledgement that the Prince of Wales Bridge is useless for a primary rail connection.

The City of Gatineau confirmed Friday that the Portage Bridge is the best place to connect a rail service from the west end of the city to Ottawa, echoing the results of an initial analysis made public last year. Two options under consultation now include a surface tram across the Portage Bridge and down Wellington Street in front of the Parliament Buildings, and a tram tunnel under Sparks Street.

The Prince of Wales bridge on the Ottawa River leading to the O-Train Bayview Station isn’t in the running.

It’s a relatively recent revelation that the timeworn crossing isn’t suitable for a main, high-capacity transit connection between Ottawa and Gatineau, but judging by the rationale provided by transit officials, the writing was on the wall years ago.

Studies have determined that all the capacity at Bayview Station would be eaten up by customer volumes going to and coming from Gatineau if there was a connection at the Prince of Wales bridge. It might be fine for a secondary connection — between west Gatineau and south Ottawa, perhaps — but not for a high-frequency transit link between the two cities.

In other words, the newly constructed Bayview Station is too small for interprovincial transit volumes.

The other big reason for eliminating the Prince of Wales bridge from contention is obvious enough: it could cut off passenger flows to key government buildings in Hull. If west-Gatineau residents want to get to work at the Portage government complex, it would require an awkward trip into Ottawa then a transfer to Hull.

It’s common that local governments look to the National Capital Commission for guidance on issues of interprovincial concerns, since it’s uniquely positioned as a local agency whose jurisdiction covers lands on both sides of the river.

The NCC helped lead a regional transportation study about seven years ago with the Prince of Wales bridge still part of the vision, along with some other scenarios describing rail extensions into Hull and a transit loop connecting the Ottawa and Gatineau downtowns. The Prince of Wales bridge was included in the City of Ottawa’s 2013 transportation master plan as long-term interprovincial LRT link.

But putting words into action is another story.

Consider the bureaucratic nightmare that comes with interprovincial transit planning. At least five jurisdictions are involved: two municipal governments, two provincial governments and the federal government via various agencies, like Transport Canada and the NCC. Then there’s the matter of who pays. During a briefing last week on the latest interprovincial transit plan, one official called it the most complex public transit project in Canada.

On the Ottawa side, it has never been clear to council that city hall should be building a huge Bayview Station to accommodate the massive passenger flows projected to happen at some unknown time in the future. The City of Ottawa had no responsibility to build a rail station that could accommodate a connection with Gatineau’s transit network.

Nowhere in a 2011 business case that provided the arguments to build the LRT system was there commentary about how useful Bayview Station would be for an interprovincial transit hub.

A March 2012 report tweaking the design of Bayview Station said the “refinements” would protect the potential to continue the rail line north toward the bridge. A December 2012 report authorizing the east-west LRT project talked about Bayview Station’s capabilities for handling future customer volumes for the Confederation Line and Trillium Line, but nothing specific to interprovincial ridership.

Locking in the $2.1-billion budget was the highest priority for council heading into the 2012 decision to build the LRT system. Upper government funding didn’t come with strings attached to ensure Ottawa’s LRT system would accommodate a high-capacity link to Gatineau.

Gatineau and Ottawa municipal officials seem to be working more closely than ever on the interprovincial transit file, which is good news for anyone hoping to see a rail connection in their lifetime.

However, the City of Ottawa is left holding the bag on the decrepit Prince of Wales bridge.

The city took a flyer on the bridge in 2005 as part of an $11-million purchase of the railway corridor from the Canadian Pacific Railway Company. The rickety crossing, which had a land value of $399,000 at the time of the transaction, was thought to be the key to a future interprovincial rail system.

Instead of a high-capacity public transit, the bridge’s potential has been downgraded to an interprovincial multi-use pathway. The City of Ottawa’s estimate for a railway-to-pathway conversion is $10 million.

With the federal government eyeing quick-win construction work to boost the economy after the COVID-19 pandemic, and Infrastructure Minister Catherine McKenna representing the Ottawa riding where the bridge touches down, it might be the right time to get started on the consolation project.

[email protected]
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-c03b3fc447ed/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #997  
Old Posted May 18, 2020, 11:32 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,610
They keep saying that the issue is “capacity at Bayview Station” and while that is somewhat true, the bigger issue is that, as the CBC article says, a transfer at Bayview “would require the city buy up to 12 additional trains.” That would add significant cost to OCTranspo and will accelerate the need for the line to be upgraded.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #998  
Old Posted May 18, 2020, 11:52 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,084
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
They keep saying that the issue is “capacity at Bayview Station” and while that is somewhat true, the bigger issue is that, as the CBC article says, a transfer at Bayview “would require the city buy up to 12 additional trains.” That would add significant cost to OCTranspo and will accelerate the need for the line to be upgraded.
That was what Joanne Chianello said at first on Twitter during the presentation, but I'm happy that her article noted the vehicle capacity issue, rather than anything specific about Bayview itself.

The only thing missing was a mention that the Prince of Wales is still proposed as a secondary link, rather than just a pedestrian crossing.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #999  
Old Posted May 19, 2020, 12:51 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,600
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
They keep saying that the issue is “capacity at Bayview Station” and while that is somewhat true, the bigger issue is that, as the CBC article says, a transfer at Bayview “would require the city buy up to 12 additional trains.” That would add significant cost to OCTranspo and will accelerate the need for the line to be upgraded.
Yes. We may be playing a bit with language. It is not really the Bayview station capacity but the Bayview transfer capacity. It almost appears to be the same, but really it is the logistics of getting all the passengers transferred on and off the Confederation Line. We would be swamping certain Confederation Line trains causing a back up of passengers. Even if we purchased additional Confederation Line trains, we would not fully resolve this problem. Swamping would still occur but it would be quicker to clear the backlog of passengers.

I know I have laughed at for my comments on this becoming our Bloor-Yonge transfer because the numbers are not comparable. But still, we will have logistical problems of moving passengers through this transfer station because of the lack of frequency on the north-south route including to Gatineau. To reach the needed capacity, huge trains will be used, hence the plan for FLIRT trains. If double tracking is not possible on the POW bridge (currently only single tracked), it may be necessary to combine trains from the two routes from west Gatineau to cross the river.

It has never seemed reasonable to use the POW as the primary Gatineau connection thankfully.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1000  
Old Posted May 19, 2020, 1:11 PM
J.OT13's Avatar
J.OT13 J.OT13 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 27,631
To prevent swamping the Spirits with transfers from Line 2, we need to either cross Line 2 over the PoW to Zibi or double the frequency (as opposed to double the size of trains, the option the city opted for). It won't take long after Trillium Stage 2 opens before the City realizes it needs to resolve the over-crowding issues at Bayview. They'll have 2 to 3 years to come up with a solution (while they still have spare Stage 2 trains to bolster the capacity).
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:50 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.