LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[acottawa]

I still think devcore's attractions are pretty generic. A ripley's is nice, but it is a chain attraction and there is a much larger one in toronto. Locals might go once, tourists might go if it is a rainy day. The automotive thing (judging by the partners) is a permanent auto show. Again, tourists might go if it rains, locals might go before purchasing a car. The mini-newseum might be a bit of a draw, but I can't see locals going more than once. The rides are generic rides you find in any city. I just don't see any of this driving activity on the site on a regular basis.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

It seems to me like Devcore is in a extremely precarious business position right now. I just can't figure out how they think this whole game will play out in their favour when you look at all the chess pieces on the board.

The business plan for the proposal is a major component of the NCC's evaluation criteria and yet the central spine of Devcore's business plan seems to me to rely on two main pillars: getting the Sens to play in your arena—which Melnyk has already all but vetoed—and a series of museums , none of which are huge money makers, especially in a city of Ottawa's size. There's a fraction of the real estate in the plan so they don't even have that as a fall back or cushion.

So far as I can tell, Devcore's entire business plan appears to be:

Step 1: win the NCC's Lebreton flats competition somehow.

Step 2: build an NHL arena right away in phase 1

I think you misunderstood their bid. Building an arena is their later phase, meaning that if they win, they will hold off on building the arena (unless they get the Sens right away). So their strategy is to try to negotiate something with Melnyk. Maybe they would offer him the land for the arena plus some land around it for extra revenue opportunities (ie. hotel, pubs, restaurants)?
Also, lets not ignore the fact that Melnyk is getting old and his health has deteriorated quite a bit recently. He wont be around for decades, lets get real here. So what happens once he has only a few months to live? He will sell, and Devcore have deeeeeeeep pockets.

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Step 3: try to somehow bargain a deal with your chief competitor Eugene Melnyk — a man whose picture is basically next to the entry for "crotchety" in the dictionary. To make matters worse, you're in one of the worst possible buyer positions imaginable: you can only buy from one person who has almost zero motivation to sell and he's the same guy you just beat out to win this competition. Melnyk also would be facing almost zero pressure to relocate the Sens since the Canadian Tire Centre is only 20 years old so he could easily wait it out in Kanata for decades if he wanted, even if just out of spite. All the while, you (Devcore) would become more and more desperate with each passing year to anchor your new $3 billion investment with a major tenant. Devcore would basically be stuck and I wouldn't even be surprised if Melnyk was able to strike some sort of deal where he got the arena for a song.

Again, you talk like if Melnyk is immportal, hahaha

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Step 4: now try and make money to recoup your expenses with almost no revenue coming in from the newly minted Sens/arena deal you just had to sign under duress because you had no bargaining leverage. Oh, and also you have very little revenue coming in from the museums you've built and the precious little real estate you've allocated in your plan is sequestered from the rest of the area on the south side of the LRT tracks because you didn't bother to bury them.

</rant>

Don't get me wrong, I think there's lots that's neat in the Devcore proposal (the urban beach and the wind tunnel being the coolest in my eyes). But holy cow, the economics of Devcore's whole proposal seem weak as hell to me.

There is a lot of land involved here. Devcore and its partners have LOADS of $, they are for sure willing to take the risks. They already spent a lot on the bid, and if they win, they are for sure ready to lose money, only to be able to be profitable long term. No one can predict the future, but one thing is for sure, Melnyk wont own the Sens forever.

[Stevenson]

Originally Posted by Radster

You can't compare Ottawa to Rome, Barcelona or NYC, come on. You exemplify the typical Ottawa mentality, city that fun forgot. We have enough attractions already, one night stop for tourists to see the Parliament buildings as they detour between Montreal and Toronto. yay! Lets leave Ottawa with the status quo and never grow up to be a big city.

I said they don't have to be nyc. You didn't read my post properly.

There is plenty fun in the city. Tell m why you go to a place like Rome other than to go to restaurants and see th historic sites? There's no gimmicky attractions.

Maybe people are just boring if they don't see the fun in a city like ours?

[rocketphish]

There are three big questions outstanding about the LeBreton proposals

Mohammed Adam, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: January 28, 2016 | Last Updated: January 28, 2016 12:51 PM EST



On paper, the proposals for LeBreton Flats development unveiled Tuesday are ambitious and impressive. For a city that has long been accused of thinking small and being unimaginative, the bids by RendezVous LeBreton and Devcore, Canderel and DLS Group are revolutionary in scope and design, despite some major similarities.

They both offer an NHL-style arena and library, and beyond that, the usual adornments such as museums, parks, gardens and condos. If — and this is a big if — any one of the proposals ends up being fully implemented, it would be transformational. But we know from experience in this city at least that pretty drawings can be deceiving.

What you see is often not what you get and people should not be fooled by the razzle dazzle. Right now there’s just too much information to absorb and it is too early to pass informed judgment on the two proposals. But if the plans are to proceed successfully, at least three big questions must be answered conclusively.

Most fundamental is whether a downtown hockey arena is the best use of this most coveted public land. The question is critical because the two bids seem intrinsically tied to this centrepiece project, and without it, things may well fall apart. An arena certainly meets the NCC’s key demand of a signature public building of national significance. Indeed the rink could be a huge attraction, animating that part of downtown.

Back when the Senators first came to town, there was a clamour for a downtown rink at LeBreton. People didn’t want it in the middle of what was then a cornfield, but the team owners at the time had different plans and that proposal went nowhere. Now we are back to the future, but do people want it now as they did in the 1990s?

More important is how regional minister Catherine McKenna and other Liberal members of Parlaiment feel about it. McKenna is key. Sure, she’s not responsible for the NCC, but Ottawa is her city, and her views would count enormously when the time comes for Montrealer and Heritage Minister Mélanie Joly, who’s responsible for the NCC, to make a recommendation for cabinet approval.

The second issue is the big dilemma facing the NCC and DCDLS over the Quebec group’s arena proposal, which is getting weirder and weirder every day. First, DCDLS proposed an arena even though it doesn’t have a hockey team to play in it.

And Melnyk says the team will not play in someone else’s arena, and he will not sell at any price. Now we read in the Citizen that DCDLS is not averse to selling its arena — and more — to Melnyk if it wins the competition. People at DCDLS seem to think Melnyk will have to talk to them, but why he would he would do that beats me.

Why would he accommodate a rival competitor when by the looks of it, he is in the driver’s seat? All this leaves the NCC in a bind because it’s anybody’s guess how the commission can make an informed choice when a lot about the DCDLS bid is so up in the air. But how this issue is resolved — or not — will have a significant impact on the development.

The third question is about the financing. It is nice to paint pretty pictures and blue-sky, but someone has to pay. Can the groups realistically do everything they’ve proposed, and do they have the money to do it?

If not, how much is government — federal, provincial and municipal — on the hook for? For instance, how is the proposed library to be financed? Is a public, private partnership part of the deal? There may be good reasons why the NCC is keeping the financial details tight now. But under no circumstances should Ottawa residents and Canadians at large, accept any plan without a full public airing of who pays for what.

We don’t want surprises. We need to know everything about the money.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...eton-proposals

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I just don't see the value of the Prince of Wales Bridge as a transit route unless we are prepared to allow interlining into the tunnel. We are otherwise asking people to transfer too often. From the Quebec side, a route needs to serve both downtown Hull and downtown Ottawa and that may be best accomplished (and most economically) by a surface LRT loop using the existing bridges.

As the primary transit link between the two cities, you're absolutely right: the PoW bridge doesn't work.

But as a supplementary transit link--one intended not for downtown-to-downtown travel but for more niche travel patterns like Carleton students or Confederation Heights employees living in Gatineau--and for Lebreton access, while we're on the topic--it would be really useful.

A surface LRT route would be somewhat pointless as given the heavy congestion in the core it wouldn't be much better than a bus, so building it would be a waste of money. Bus connections will continue to be the workhorse of interprovincial transit for a long time, until we're actually ready to seriously look at something along the lines of a subway under the river.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

As the primary transit link between the two cities, you're absolutely right: the PoW bridge doesn't work.

But as a supplementary transit link--one intended not for downtown-to-downtown travel but for more niche travel patterns like Carleton students or Confederation Heights employees living in Gatineau--and for Lebreton access, while we're on the topic--it would be really useful.

A surface LRT route would be somewhat pointless as given the heavy congestion in the core it wouldn't be much better than a bus, so building it would be a waste of money. Bus connections will continue to be the workhorse of interprovincial transit for a long time, until we're actually ready to seriously look at something along the lines of a subway under the river.

The debate about subways versus LRT has been raging for years in Toronto. What you are talking about would really be an extension of a Bank Street subway under the Ottawa River. This will be a massive undertaking, bigger than the Confederation Line and I can't see it for at least 50 years and probably much longer.

What I am suggesting is a way to get more of the diesel buses out of downtown without the enormous price tag of another subway. We are already taking the bulk of Ottawa buses out of the downtown and an LRT loop will get rid of most STO buses, so why can't downtown handle an LRT loop?

And if Gatineau decides to move to LRT to replace Rapibus, it provides a way of accessing both downtowns without breaking the bank.

It can't be a subway or forget rail transit in Gatineau. I think there needs to be room for alternatives.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

1overcosc wrote about the POW bridge:

But as a supplementary transit link--one intended not for downtown-to-downtown travel but for more niche travel patterns like Carleton students or Confederation Heights employees living in Gatineau--and for Lebreton access, while we're on the topic--it would be really useful

.

Actually the Trillium Line over the POW would probably benefit uOttawa more than Carleton.

There are quite a lot of uOttawa staff as well as many students who live in Gatineau. I am willing to bet there are lot more than at Carleton.
With a transfer at Bayview Station to the Confederation Line these staff and students are only minutes from uOttawa Station and Lees Station at the Lees Campus.

[rocketphish]

Some inconvenient truths about LeBreton

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: January 28, 2016 | Last Updated: January 28, 2016 6:14 PM EST

LRT, we are told, is the bedrock of the LeBreton Flats promise. God help us.

To begin with some inconvenient truths.

If the Melnyk or RendezVous plan goes ahead, we might have a downtown arena ready by 2021. If the Confederation Line is completed on time, it will open in 2018. But it will end at Tunney’s Pasture, one stop west of Bayview Station and two stops from Pimisi (or LeBreton east).

Yes, one stop on the choo-choo, maybe two, and off. And the entire west end of the city has to find its way to Tunney’s. And, what, park somewhere?

But there will be lots of built-in bus support, you tell me, bringing all of Metro Kanata/Nepean and the Orlèans uberPlex downtown. Okay, maybe it all works out: bus-train-walk, or car to park-and-ride/side street and bus-train-walk. (The east end, by the way, seems better positioned to commute, with stations all the way to Blair Road and travel time between Blair-Tunney’s estimated below 24 minutes.)

The extension of the LRT line west, or Phase 2, is scheduled to be completed to Bayshore by 2023. When LRT gets to Kanata, possibly by 2031, some Senators season-ticket holders will be pleased, some will be dead.

I suppose we need to rest assured the transportation engineers have the capacity figured out. The posted numbers say the first phase, Confederation, will have a “planned peak” capacity of 10,700 passengers per hour in each direction, and trains as often as every one minute, 45 seconds.

When Phase 2 is done, the peak capacity is estimated at 24,000 an hour, each direction. Now, the two LeBreton proposals put transit usage at 50 to 65 per cent of, say, 18,000 fans on game night. Not forgetting there are “other” people on the train, does it all work?

Sure. What could possibly go wrong?

Obviously, LeBreton is hugely enhanced by having LRT and, the world being imperfect, it’s a long build-out, with many players marching to different beats, to their own circles of approval hell.

But it’s useful to remind ourselves that, wherever we put the arena, it will be an awkward commute for somebody. We all aren’t downtown, all the time, to wit: the five most populous wards in Ottawa, by 2021 city estimates: Bell-South Nepean (69,000), Gloucester-South Nepean (65,000), Baseline (61,000), Rideau-Rockcliffe (56,000) and Kanata North (54,000).

(And our astute Jon Willing asked a good question of the Devcore Canderel and DLS Group — Gatineau and West Quebec are rich hockey-fan territory: how do we move spectators efficiently across the Ottawa River, with the Prince of Wales bridge in suspended hibernation?)

It is interesting that the future of LeBreton has evolved into a debate between rival billionaires. Eugene Melnyk certainly has the hometown sympathy (Sens saviour, head cheerleader), while the other two have earned some suspicion.

Neither Cirque du Soleil co-founder Guy Laliberté or Power Corp. president André Desmarais — the big money behind the Devcore bid — were present during this week’s unveiling. Nor is it clear to me why they’re even interested: these are fabulously wealthy individuals from Quebec — what’s motivating them to get involved in land development in Ottawa, but for the prospect of owning an NHL team?

There is, too, the sticking point that the two bids have the arena in different places. The Melnyk group has its rink overlooking Nepean Bay Inlet, more or less midway between the two transit stations; the Devcore group has its rink tucked at the Bayview Station end.

(I raise this because, among other things, the Melnyk group probably will not want to buy/lease an arena design it doesn’t like, on a footprint it thinks is wrong.)

As for the NCC, some good, some bad. Why would they set aside two days — and only two — for public, face-to-face consultation? This may be the most important job it does in 50 years: could it not have left the models/displays in an accessible public lobby somewhere?

And now the Crown corporation has created huge expectations. It has called the city’s power types to the table, asked them to imagine and ponder the future of 50 acres of prime land; in fact, to imagine a changed city for a century.

If the NCC blinks and rejects both ideas, they’ll look like idiots, wasting the private sector’s time. But if they get it wrong, we’re all the worse.

Good luck, Russell Mills and Mark Kristmanson, chair and CEO: and just remember, you asked for this.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-726-5896 or email [email protected]
Twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...about-lebreton

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It can't be a subway or forget rail transit in Gatineau. I think there needs to be room for alternatives.

Why "forget rail transit in Gatineau"? I see no reason at all for that verb to be in the imperative.

[Mugwumper]

I can't really figure out what Egan's going on about.

There will be some LRT traffic to the downtown arena (which will get built, no matter which proposal wins). There obviously won't be LRT connecting all of the suburbs to the arena, like spokes on a wheel. But the current Canadian Tire arena in Kanata doesn't have LRT connections at all, and won't be getting them. So.... what's Egan's point?

Melnyk's proposal includes 8000 underground parking spaces beneath the arena. 10,000 additional parking spots would need to be created in the worst case scenario, if absolutely no one arrives via LRT or bus... to be found in parking garages one assumes. There's no reason to think a solution couldn't be found, as with Lansdowne. There'd be plenty of office and retail high-rises which could open up their underground parking spaces, as the World Exchange plaza currently does. And, of course many people would arrive by LRT or bus, in any case.

The big problem is the probable Gatineau traffic bottleneck.

[Kitchissippi]

I say split up the property, give the main parcels to DCDLS and the option lands to Melnyk's group. Things will probably happen faster with some competition and a larger pool of money. I would like to see DCDLS cover over the LRT, though, and maybe border its "Canadensis Walk" with shops and restaurants n the south side.

[mykl]

Egan is definitely grasping at draws. Anyone who doesn't understand the concept that currently MOST of the city has to travel to the very edge of town, versus the scary idea that everyone would have a smiliar travel time to get to the centre is ridiculous. No one understands the concept of central.

As a citizen of downtown, I truly wouldn't benefit from the long list of attractions Devcore has proposed. I might go to half of them once to check out their contents and architecture, and that would be it. They're not things you need to go to twice, they're not special. Ontario's second best Ripley's aquarium is nothing to strive for. Sure Ottawa could use an aquarium. Its the best part of the laundry list of attractions they suggest. But its not the majestic and inspirational institution people are making it out to be.

I'd also like to know what parents want their kids going to an elementary school that surrounded by tourism and commercialism and a giant homage to beer. Seriously.

Earlier this evening, the NCC tweeted that they've already received 2000+ survey responses. The fact that people are getting involved makes me happy. I just hope they realize that a list of fun things doesn't actually make sense in the long term. I'd really be interested to hear of an example where a city decided to build such a large number of tourist attractions all at once. Because when most cities want to bring in tourists, they build one London Eye, or one Guggenheim.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by mykl

Because when most cities want to bring in tourists, they build one London Eye, or one Guggenheim.

Wasn't the London Eye built as a massive millenium legacy project including, amongst others, the Millenium Dome?

[Kitchissippi]

Ask Londoners how many times they go on the London Eye, or Torontonians if they've gone up the CN Tower more than once. Pick any heavily visited city and you'll find a long list of single-visit attractions. Concentrate them in one area so you can't do all of them in one day and mix in some dynamic programming like concerts and special events, you'll attract a steady stream of tourists.

Three years ago, I went to the Mosaika light show on Parliament Hill 5 times in one summer with visitors. I was surprised to see a thousand or more each time and realized there is a hunger for things to do in this city. Yet beyond seasonal things like skating on the canal, most of our urban spaces like Sparks Street, the Market and Lansdowne, are too focused on shopping; the rest is unprogrammed greenspace.

Probably a third or more of our out-of-town visitors come from the Montreal area. I think they mostly view Ottawa as a cute little day trip that they do once. Putting in unique attractions Montreal doesn't have (an aquarium, a "News-eum", a high-calibre auto exhibit, etc.) is one way to get them to visit more often. Upstate New York is another huge untapped market, and if most of what we offer is Canadian history it won't be interesting to them because they can't relate.

The Devcore proposal might seem a little over the top and World's Fair-like, but I think we do need something that is unique and different enough to make people outside notice and be curious about. It probably needs some tweaking but it's a more exciting starting point than an arena, some condos, and <groan> more shopping.

[daud]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Ask Londoners how many times they go on the London Eye, or Torontonians if they've gone up the CN Tower more than once. Pick any heavily visited city and you'll find a long list of single-visit attractions. Concentrate them in one area so you can't do all of them in one day and mix in some dynamic programming like concerts and special events, you'll attract a steady stream of tourists.

Three years ago, I went to the Mosaika light show on Parliament Hill 5 times in one summer with visitors. I was surprised to see a thousand or more each time and realized there is a hunger for things to do in this city. Yet beyond seasonal things like skating on the canal, most of our urban spaces like Sparks Street, the Market and Lansdowne, are too focused on shopping; the rest is unprogrammed greenspace.

Probably a third or more of our out-of-town visitors come from the Montreal area. I think they mostly view Ottawa as a cute little day trip that they do once. Putting in unique attractions Montreal doesn't have (an aquarium, a "News-eum", a high-calibre auto exhibit, etc.) is one way to get them to visit more often. Upstate New York is another huge untapped market, and if most of what we offer is Canadian history it won't be interesting to them because they can't relate.

The Devcore proposal might seem a little over the top and World's Fair-like, but I think we do need something that is unique and different enough to make people outside notice and be curious about. It probably needs some tweaking but it's a more exciting starting point than an arena, some condos, and <groan> more shopping.

I tend to agree with you. I'm having a tough time figuring out what Rendez-Vous is offering besides the arena, condos, shops and library. The rest is just parks, open space and lighting. Condos and shops will come no matter what-either at lebreton or elsewhere-its a demand thing. The library is offered by both. Their arena is fantastic, I also prefer the Rendez-Vous' layout. But they are just missing one good solid attraction in their proposal and I'm really surprised they didn't put one in-it would have sealed the deal. I've heard the arguments against the Devcore proposal and there is validity to them; but to turn the tables for one second. The risk with Rendez-Vous is that you end up with a big lansdowne. They are proposing to fill the space with stuff that can be filled anywhere in the city...

Devcore offers more-Ottawa is lacking in real entertainment based tourist sites. Tourism could be so much bigger than it currently is. There is no forward thinking in ottawa as it relates to a Tourism destination. The Devcore attractions, IMHO are not Niagara falls wax museums. Cirque du Soleil is involved for pete's sake. I'm all in for Rendez-Vous if they added 1 or 2 good attractions-Aquarium etc...

Also, a brewseum would totally work there. This city is fanatical for beer; they just gotta make sure you can actually get some beer there and some of your space is dedicated for special events.

As I said, I love both proposals but Devcore is totally tapping into a missing component of the Rendez-Vous plan.

[Arcologist]

Originally Posted by daud

I tend to agree with you. I'm having a tough time figuring out what Rendez-Vous is offering besides the arena, condos, shops and library. The rest is just parks, open space and lighting. Condos and shops will come no matter what-either at lebreton or elsewhere-its a demand thing. The library is offered by both. Their arena is fantastic, I also prefer the Rendez-Vous' layout. But they are just missing one good solid attraction in their proposal and I'm really surprised they didn't put one in-it would have sealed the deal. I've heard the arguments against the Devcore proposal and there is validity to them; but to turn the tables for one second. The risk with Rendez-Vous is that you end up with a big lansdowne. They are proposing to fill the space with stuff that can be filled anywhere in the city...

Devcore offers more-Ottawa is lacking in real tourist sites. Tourism could be so much bigger than it currently is. There is no forward thinking in ottawa as it relates to a Tourism destination. The Devcore attractions, IMHO are not Niagara falls wax museums. Cirque du Soleil is involved for pete's sake. I'm all in for Rendez-Vous if they added 1 or 2 good attractions-Aquarium etc...

Also, a brewseum would totally work there. This city is fanatical for beer; they just gotta make sure you can actually get some beer there and some of your space is dedicated for special events.

As I said, I love both proposals but Devcore is totally tapping into a missing component of the Rendez-Vous plan.

daud, I couldn't agree with you more.

The RendezVous proposal is just a larger Lansdowne, nothing more, with very little programming for the site, and nothing to draw outside tourists. The Devcore proposal would definitely put Ottawa on the map, internationally, with far more attractions and better programming.

A few things I like about each proposal:

RendezVous:
+ they covered the LRT line, which imo helps keep the site intact (whereas the Devcore proposal gets split in half because of the LRT trench)
+ their use of the aqueduct
+ green roof experience on the arena
- too many condos
- feels like just another Lansdowne
- no museums or big-ticket attractions
+ they have an NHL team

Devcore:
+ lots of unique, big-ticket attractions (skate park, skyzone, Brewseum, etc.)
- who's going to fund these big-ticket items? (I could see the Brewseum, skyzone and skate park doing well as businesses, but museums tend to rely heavily on public funding, donations, etc.)
+ love the Canadensis Walk
+ LOVE their library design!
- don't like that they left the LRT trench exposed. It cuts the site in half.
- they don't have an NHL team (but hope they can work with Melnyk on this)
+ great site programming (RendezVous has none)

Also like that both are looking to be green / netzero developments.

IMO, the NCC would do best to take a hybrid approach, and integrate elements of both proposals while having both teams work together on this. After all, that's what nation building is about, isn't it!?!

[daud]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

A few things I like about each proposal:

RendezVous:
+ they covered the LRT line, which imo helps keep the site intact (whereas the Devcore proposal gets split in half because of the LRT trench)
+ their use of the aqueduct
+ green roof experience on the arena
- too many condos
- feels like just another Lansdowne
- no museums or big-ticket attractions
+ they have an NHL team

Devcore:
+ lots of unique, big-ticket attractions (skate park, skyzone, Brewseum, etc.)
- who's going to fund these big-ticket items? (I could see the Brewseum, skyzone and skate park doing well as businesses, but museums tend to rely heavily on public funding, donations, etc.)
+ love the Canadensis Walk
+ LOVE their library design!
- don't like that they left the LRT trench exposed. It cuts the site in half.
- they don't have an NHL team (but hope they can work with Melnyk on this)
+ great site programming (RendezVous has none)

Also like that both are looking to be green / netzero developments.

IMO, the NCC would do best to take a hybrid approach, and integrate elements of both proposals while having both teams work together on this. After all, that's what nation building is about, isn't it!?!

100% agree with this summary. This is exactly what I am seeing with each proposal.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by daud

I tend to agree with you. I'm having a tough time figuring out what Rendez-Vous is offering besides the arena, condos, shops and library. The rest is just parks, open space and lighting. Condos and shops will come no matter what-either at lebreton or elsewhere-its a demand thing. The library is offered by both. Their arena is fantastic, I also prefer the Rendez-Vous' layout. But they are just missing one good solid attraction in their proposal and I'm really surprised they didn't put one in-it would have sealed the deal. I've heard the arguments against the Devcore proposal and there is validity to them; but to turn the tables for one second. The risk with Rendez-Vous is that you end up with a big lansdowne. They are proposing to fill the space with stuff that can be filled anywhere in the city...

Devcore offers more-Ottawa is lacking in real entertainment based tourist sites. Tourism could be so much bigger than it currently is. There is no forward thinking in ottawa as it relates to a Tourism destination. The Devcore attractions, IMHO are not Niagara falls wax museums. Cirque du Soleil is involved for pete's sake. I'm all in for Rendez-Vous if they added 1 or 2 good attractions-Aquarium etc...

Also, a brewseum would totally work there. This city is fanatical for beer; they just gotta make sure you can actually get some beer there and some of your space is dedicated for special events.

As I said, I love both proposals but Devcore is totally tapping into a missing component of the Rendez-Vous plan.

To take your reasoning a little further, I hear people talking about "Nationally Significant" and "Public Land for ALL" jargon-speak going back and forth in arguments. Someone told me that neither bid has any nationally significant public space. But my question was, what constitutes a nationally significant public space? To me, Ottawa has plenty of this type of example, but all are federal institutions and major, federal museums. This is not exactly what we're asking for. We should be asking for something dynamic, exciting, different from the norm.

I would say that both proposals have plenty of private use space, and both have nice designs for condos and retail (Arguably the mixed-use neighborhood at DCDLS is more complete than Rendezvous), but leave the private space to the side. What of the public space? Here is the criteria from the NCC Request for Proposal for public use:

16.2.1 Public Anchor Use(s)
(0- 30 points)
1. For the public anchor use(s), this section should provide
a thorough analysis of the market viability of the
public anchor use(s). Studies to fully demonstrate the
supportable program requirements with projections of
attendance/visitor traffic should be prepared. Revenue
estimates as well as other factors that can be integrated
into the financial plan should be provided.
2. Since it’s a key objective of the NCC to animate this area
by way of unique public experiences that add social value
and is worthy and representative of the nation’s capital,
projections with respect to the characteristics/profile of
visitors, nationally and internationally alike, will be of
interest in the evaluation of submissions. The number
of visitors as well as seasonality and duration of visits,
the connectivity with and propensity to visit other local attractions and for secondary spending in ancillary retail
or other attractions should be analyzed and forecasted.
3. The market analysis should also integrate synergistic
relationships between both existing uses and future uses
that contribute positively to the area as a whole.
The NCC offers the following interrogative reflections to guide
the proponents in developing proposed public anchor use(s).
No points are specifically associated with any questions or
answers:
• Will the proposed anchor use(s), in conjunction with the
supporting development scheme, enrich the social and
cultural fabric of Canada’s Capital?
• Will the proposed public anchor use(s) draw visitors from
beyond the local market?
• Will the presence of the public anchor use(s) enhance the
prestige and economic competitiveness of the Capital?
• Will the public anchor use(s) have iconic design qualities
that draw positive attention to the Capital?
• Will the purpose of the use enhance the Capital’s
international standing?
• Is the public anchor use(s) offering access to a service
and/or function that is not otherwise available in the local
market?
• Does the proposed public anchor use(s) contribute
meaningfully to community development?

So for Rendezvous, you've got the Arena, and the (not yet figured out) Library. The rest is arguably private use (yes, restaurants are a private, commercial use). I can't see how they get all the points in this category, with just an arena and the library (which is not a given. It will be based on the City's decision regarding where to put the library). Yes there are some other public lands, but to me they look like treed walkways between condos, with some schmarmy holograms lighting up the trees, and an 'under the overpass night market' with special lights? What is the programming that will happen in the windswept Lebreton sidewalks to get the butts in the seats???

The DCDLS bid may have several kitschy attractions (I'm looking at you, Automobile Experience and/or the Brewseum) but the rest are tested attractions from other cities that tourists love to gobble up, with proven backers. What's wrong with that? We currently don't HAVE any of that... I argued that restaurants are private commercial space, and perhaps the skydiving/aquarium/newseum/skate park, requiring money to enter, is also private space? I'm not totally clear on that)

PLUS the open DCDLS areas have several different uses, the bandstand is a great addition and would be animated several times through the seasons for winterlude, bluesfest, random summer concerts (and there aren't any condos bordering it for NIMBY's to complain about noise, something that will prove impossible for the Rendezvous condo owners, who will inevitably get really protective about their 'neighbourhoods').

So all that aside, the court of public opinion comes down to Arena and Hockey, something Ottawa happens to be passionate about. Hockey is not something included in the bid evaluation, other than the secondary points given to drawing the public to the site. Both proposals will draw concert-goers, so really the Rendezvous can draw more people due to hockey games, 50 times a year, in the winter? DCDLS will draw people (however many is debateable) to their plethora of plebeian attractions year-round. I don't see why Ottawans are acting like they're 'too good' for the kitschy attractions, because that's the only thing we don't have in a city full of other types of stately public attractions.

Anyways I could ramble on and on, but I think you can all see where I'm going with this. Hopefully we get some new kitschy attractions, instead of the Barry Hobin-special: tree-lined condo towers with retail at the base.

[AndyMEng]

And ANOTHER thing:

Hockey is only a portion of Melnyk's revenue stream. Arguably the large concert and events are a huge draw to the Canadian Tire Centre (a.k.a. revenue).

If the DCDLS bid wins, here's what will go down:
1. The arena will be built at Lebreton, at a loss for Devcore
2. The new arena will draw the concert acts from Kanata to downtown.
3. The Canadian Tire Centre, already operating just barely profitable, will no longer be profitable with only hockey.
4. Melnyk will be forced to come to a deal with DCDLS, one way or another.

So there's that.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

the rest is unprogrammed greenspace.

Nationally Significant Greenspace For All Canadians, to you!

The Devcore proposal might seem a little over the top and World's Fair-like, but I think we do need something that is unique and different enough to make people outside notice and be curious about. It probably needs some tweaking but it's a more exciting starting point than an arena, some condos, and <groan> more shopping.

I find the exact opposite: condos and shopping - i.e., a mixed-use neighbourhood - is a better starting point than a modern version of the 1935 World's Fair.

If there is to be a mélange of the two proposals, the Senators' proposal has much better starting bones.

Statement of Disinterest: I have no interest in the Senators, or hockey, or the spoarts. I went to one game of iced hockey about 10 years ago as a guest in a box. It was nice.