HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Transportation & Infrastructure


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #981  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2016, 12:39 AM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Kingsway Extension ...
Oak St. Extension ...
connection from Terminal to 6th/2nd ave ...


new blocks on south False Creek ... started in the 70s with Granville Island and nearly completed in 2010 with Athletes Village.

new blocks on north False Creek to replace the rail yards ... only took 60 years before Expo 86 cleared the land first.

Burrard Bridge (Proposed) ... and built.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #982  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2016, 8:40 AM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 2,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
I doubt it. The layoffs are a response to cash flow issues - not as much revenue coming in each year so you have to trim expenses to match. The Arbutus line doesn't really represent much of an expense. But it probably kiboshes any plans they may have had to improve the line or run anything on it.
Most of the jobs they are cutting are through "attrition" so I doubt they will see a lot in the way of immediate cost savings. It's something you do to get headlines to stabilize your stock price.

But if they are trying to save money, yeah, the first thing you do is stop spending money on rail spurs you don't use. So the residents of the West Site will get reprieve from any possible trains for the time being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
An easy way to generate quick cash is by selling unused assets. The short-thinking stock market likes that, as well as governments desperate to show a "balanced budget".
Yeah. They could easily be motivated to sell at a more reasonable price. CP has been holding out for a pie in the sky evaluation, or a rezoning of the land so they can become the new Concorde Pacific and redevelop the land themselves (or more likely spin off the land into a new company that the important share holders in CP get shares in thus shielding the profits from regular stock holders).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
But in this case they'd have to formally abandon the line to do that, and given that their threat to run trains would have failed if that step had been taken I'm a bit doubtful that they'll want to cross that bridge.

A short-term cut in expenses (wages) is appropriate for a short-term drop in business. It's generally not wise to sell assets unless there's some structural reason why you think your revenues are not going to recover in the future.

It's true that this is an unused asset, but I think they'd still like to maximize its value. The question is really one of whether they think they've exhausted all their options in that regard. And that evaluation process is really quite independent of their current business issues.
They did formally abandon the line, they just didn't follow the rest of the procedures of offering it for sale at salvage value back to the local governments and transit agencies. Until they do that, they can't sell it on the open market.

You typically sell off assets when they have no use to your company business plan. Unlike a lot of companies that have business plans that revolve around NOT what you think (like McDonalds is actually a real estate company that happens to sell food), CP is actually transportation company. If the Arbutus corridor can't be used for transport, it is useless to CP's business model.

Unloading the land and using the money for operations/asset purchase, or returning it to shareholders should be their priority. And it is their priority, hence why they have been trying to extort the City so badly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logicbomb View Post
Record profits, record revenues, more layoffs. CP continues to abandon useful spurs. In fact, CP will likely be ceasing operations along the Marpole Spur come the end of the year.

Despite my disdain for railway corporations in this country, I think CP has every right to sell the Arbutus Corridor, and for fair market value. Too bad the Federal government didn't have any foresight to think about protecting critical rail corridors, many of which could have been transferred to short-line entities. Instead, many of the "under-performing" spurs/branch lines in this region fall on valuable land....and here we are.
The thing is, what is "market value"? The land is currently zoned for transportation. And the city has made its intentions clear that that will never change.

So, what is the land worth? Nothing. How much would you pay for land you couldn't build anything on? If it had value, wouldn't private developers like Bosa and Concorde Pacific and Wall Center be all over trying to buy it?

What's the market value of land that only has value as a railway with no business clients?

The whole active train thing was to put pressure on the city to settle at an exorbitant price, or change the zoning laws so third parties would be interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Waiting out the city until the city folds. The city or translink will need permission to go over or under for transit to UBC, and if you hold until then, you can come to a compromise that isn't 'give us this land for way less than its value'.
They don't need permission from the railroad to build a crossing. If the 2 parties can't come to an agreement on a road crossing, then they submit an application to the Canadian Transportation Agency, and they decide if it happens (and even who pays).

So, say the federal government is partially funding a subway line of national importance, and that line crosses a railway, and they submit to the Agency (a federal one) a request to cross the RR... who do you think the agency is going to side with?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #983  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2016, 9:58 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 8,856
Quote:
So, what is the land worth? Nothing. How much would you pay for land you couldn't build anything on? If it had value, wouldn't private developers like Bosa and Concorde Pacific and Wall Center be all over trying to buy it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
They did formally abandon the line, they just didn't follow the rest of the procedures of offering it for sale at salvage value back to the local governments and transit agencies. Until they do that, they can't sell it on the open market.
I believe you just answered your own question.

Really not sure how CP is the bad guy here. They're just doing what all corporations do: try and get the most money possible ($400M).
Even then, they've agreed to sell at cheaper ($100M).

Exorbitant price? All City Council has to do is cancel one bike lane here, keep one viaduct there, and presto - new transit corridor. Instead, they've lowballed ($20M), tried to get the zoning changed, sued repeatedly, and flat-out refused to negotiate further. That's bad conduct, no matter how you look at it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #984  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2016, 10:05 AM
Kisai Kisai is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Burnaby
Posts: 1,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post

They don't need permission from the railroad to build a crossing. If the 2 parties can't come to an agreement on a road crossing, then they submit an application to the Canadian Transportation Agency, and they decide if it happens (and even who pays).

So, say the federal government is partially funding a subway line of national importance, and that line crosses a railway, and they submit to the Agency (a federal one) a request to cross the RR... who do you think the agency is going to side with?
Honestly, the "perfect" solution is to build a Skytrain line down Arbutus (given ridership demand for it,) and build housing around it so the trains exist in something subway-like. This solves several problems:
a) Keeps the ground level space free for bike trails and walking trails like it is under the Expo line.
b) Boxes in the Skytrain to eliminate the visual and noise impact
c) Creates plenty of "cheap" rental housing if appropriately sound insulated.

But what CP most likely wants is to sell the land to Concord Pacific or one of the other Chinese developers who will just build more low-quality "luxury condos" that will end up staying empty.

I don't see a ground LRT/Streetcar being built down the line because it's a slower, noisier option than taking the Canada Line that parallels it. Unless the Canada Line reaches it's absolute maximum capacity and the city of Vancouver loses it's mind, it'll be empty for quite a while.

And no, I have no sympathy for the trespassers who built gardens and extended their backyards into it. That's not their land, and they had no reasonable expectation of trying to invoke squatters rights when the CP company is in business. THAT is why CP wants to "do something", so they don't lose the land entirely.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #985  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2016, 4:40 PM
MIPS's Avatar
MIPS MIPS is offline
SkyTrain Nut
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kamloops
Posts: 1,829
Now that the Canada Line exists and the Broadway Extension is pretty much set in stone there's no bloomin' point to run a guideway down the RoW. You're better off either converting the Canada Line to SkyTrain for whatever reason I can't think of or making any UBC extension past dunbar a spur line and looping the SkyTrain back around to Marine Drive Station.

If anything, why not just wire it for the BCER tram and single track it back and fourth between Science World and the old Kerrisdale station with three or four stops in between? It would serve no real purpose besides moving the tourists around but at least it would be a little more appealing than a SkyTrain guideway, a modern LRT solution OR whatever CP has planned.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #986  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 12:01 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 8,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIPS View Post
It would serve no real purpose besides moving the tourists around but at least it would be a little more appealing than a SkyTrain guideway, a modern LRT solution OR whatever CP has planned.
The Arbutus ROW is almost perfect for conventional light rail. It's mostly traffic-independent, runs down a low/mid-rise corridor, complements the existing backbone (instead of being it), and potentially connects River District, Marine Drive, Kerrisdale, Granville Island, Olympic Village and Main Street Station.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #987  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 1:12 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
The Arbutus ROW is almost perfect for conventional light rail. It's mostly traffic-independent, runs down a low/mid-rise corridor, complements the existing backbone (instead of being it), and potentially connects River District, Marine Drive, Kerrisdale, Granville Island, Olympic Village and Main Street Station.
It is 3 km from the Canada Line. Why waste the money there when there are many, many other transit projects that would benefit the GVA more
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #988  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 2:21 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 8,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
It is 3 km from the Canada Line. Why waste the money there when there are many, many other transit projects that would benefit the GVA more
Come on, obviously not now. 2030 or later - it's definitely near the bottom of the list. But "3km from the Canada Line" means half the West Side, as well as downtown, connected to the Expo, new Millennium and Canada Lines via streetcar - a streetcar, by the way, that's already been planned from Waterfront and Davie to Granville Island. That's a lot of potential ridership.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #989  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 2:23 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Come on, obviously not now. 2030 or later - it's definitely near the bottom of the list. But "3km from the Canada Line" means half the West Side, as well as downtown, connected to the Expo, new Millennium and Canada Lines via streetcar - a streetcar, by the way, that's already been planned from Waterfront and Davie to Granville Island. That's a lot of potential ridership.
Name me another major city that built a second line within 3km of an existing one that is still under capacity?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #990  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 2:29 AM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Rational urbanist
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Metro Vancouver
Posts: 5,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Name me another major city that built a second line within 3km of an existing one that is still under capacity?
I'll be jumping for joy if we start work on an Arbutus line before the Canada Line meets capacity, given that we still have the Surrey and Broadway lines at least to finish. Who knows what could become a priority after that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #991  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 2:45 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 8,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Name me another major city that built a second line within 3km of an existing one that is still under capacity?
Manhattan? Chicago? Hong Kong? Berlin? London? All have parallel lines within 3k of each other; not sure where you're going with this.

Maybe I'm not making it clear enough - by all means, upgrade the Canada Line to capacity. Build the downtown streetcar, too; sometime in the future, extend it down to and along Marine.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #992  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 2:50 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Manhattan? Chicago? Hong Kong? Berlin? London? All have parallel lines within 3k of each other; not sure where you're going with this.

Maybe I'm not making it clear enough - by all means, upgrade the Canada Line to capacity. Build the downtown streetcar, too; sometime in the future, extend it down to and along Marine.
Chicago is the city in the list with the lowest population. It has the same population as the Lower Mainland.

My point is, GVA needs to double before it would be even worth looking at.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #993  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 3:13 AM
logan5's Avatar
logan5 logan5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mt.Pleasant/Downtown South
Posts: 7,097
It would probly cost less than 100 million to convert the Arbutus Corridor into a transit-way that would provide fast service into the Metro Core. Then the city could plan dense, transit oriented neighbourhoods along Arbutus; densities greater than what we see along the Broadway Corridor.

That transit corridor is huge asset to have in a dense city like Vancouver. Too bad it just sits there growing weeds.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #994  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 3:32 AM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 8,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
It would probly cost less than 100 million to convert the Arbutus Corridor into a transit-way that would provide fast service into the Metro Core. Then the city could plan dense, transit oriented neighbourhoods along Arbutus; densities greater than what we see along the Broadway Corridor.

That transit corridor is huge asset to have in a dense city like Vancouver. Too bad it just sits there growing weeds.
Not too dense. Light rail is basically a B-Line on tracks, so you want mid-rises/townhouses and little to no traffic.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #995  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 4:06 AM
MIPS's Avatar
MIPS MIPS is offline
SkyTrain Nut
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Kamloops
Posts: 1,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
It would probly cost less than 100 million to convert the Arbutus Corridor into a transit-way that would provide fast service into the Metro Core. Then the city could plan dense, transit oriented neighbourhoods along Arbutus; densities greater than what we see along the Broadway Corridor.

That transit corridor is huge asset to have in a dense city like Vancouver. Too bad it just sits there growing weeds.
I also have zero problems with it sitting fallow for another 50 years, on top of the other suggestions.
It's presence simply to exist is like Lougheed's formerly roughed-in third platform and enables future expansion without the lengthy and (in that area particularly) the extremely expensive costs of buying lots to build a new RoW. To sell the line off or integrate it into the transit plan now simply because it's there and we have to do it now is shooting yourself in the foot and costing a lot of money in the long run.

You are seriously overestimating the demand for rail right now given how we already have very good east/west bus corridoors all the way from 4th to Marine.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #996  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 7:36 AM
Kisai Kisai is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Burnaby
Posts: 1,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIPS View Post
I also have zero problems with it sitting fallow for another 50 years, on top of the other suggestions.
It's presence simply to exist is like Lougheed's formerly roughed-in third platform and enables future expansion without the lengthy and (in that area particularly) the extremely expensive costs of buying lots to build a new RoW. To sell the line off or integrate it into the transit plan now simply because it's there and we have to do it now is shooting yourself in the foot and costing a lot of money in the long run.

You are seriously overestimating the demand for rail right now given how we already have very good east/west bus corridoors all the way from 4th to Marine.
My main opposition to sticking anything down it right now (street cars, light rail, etc) is that it would be a tremendous cash sink. The requirement really is "Canada line must be over capacity" to justify building anything. Vancouver doesn't want a streetcar/surface light rail otherwise they wouldn't have kept funding the one they had during the olympics. The reason they don't is because the city had to pay (90 million) for it. Let alone the ongoing cost for maintenance, drivers, and the pensions for the staff.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #997  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 7:12 PM
Vin Vin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 8,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
It would probly cost less than 100 million to convert the Arbutus Corridor into a transit-way that would provide fast service into the Metro Core. Then the city could plan dense, transit oriented neighbourhoods along Arbutus; densities greater than what we see along the Broadway Corridor.

That transit corridor is huge asset to have in a dense city like Vancouver. Too bad it just sits there growing weeds.
Vancouver is NOT a dense city by any means. I took the Arbutus bus number 16 before and just right after 41st Ave heading south, there were only 2 or 3 passengers left in the bus. Unless this city does what Burnaby or other major cities around the world are doing, ie, making neighbourhoods really dense, I don't see the justification of building any mass transit system along the Arbutus corridor. For example, it is time to plan for a huge commercial centre to be built at Kerrisdale, and allow the addition of 40+ storey condos in that neighbourhood. Either that or rezone multiple SFH streets flanking Arbutus to higher density neighbourhoods, with 8-20 storey buildings and commercial structures. When those happen, then we're talking.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #998  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 7:48 PM
csbvan's Avatar
csbvan csbvan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 3,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Vancouver is NOT a dense city by any means. I took the Arbutus bus number 16 before and just right after 41st Ave heading south, there were only 2 or 3 passengers left in the bus. Unless this city does what Burnaby or other major cities around the world are doing, ie, making neighbourhoods really dense, I don't see the justification of building any mass transit system along the Arbutus corridor. For example, it is time to plan for a huge commercial centre to be built at Kerrisdale, and allow the addition of 40+ storey condos in that neighbourhood. Either that or rezone multiple SFH streets flanking Arbutus to higher density neighbourhoods, with 8-20 storey buildings and commercial structures. When those happen, then we're talking.
Vancouver is the third densest large city in English North America. Burnaby's density is 2,463.5/km2 and Vancouver's density is 5,249/km2.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #999  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 8:37 PM
Migrant_Coconut's Avatar
Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kitsilano/Fairview
Posts: 8,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vin View Post
For example, it is time to plan for a huge commercial centre to be built at Kerrisdale, and allow the addition of 40+ storey condos in that neighbourhood. Either that or rezone multiple SFH streets flanking Arbutus to higher density neighbourhoods, with 8-20 storey buildings and commercial structures. When those happen, then we're talking.
20 to 40-floor condos in Kerrisdale, aka NIMBY Central... yeah, good luck with that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1000  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2016, 8:46 PM
squeezied's Avatar
squeezied squeezied is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,625
More idle talk from Vin. I don't think he knows a thing about density nor does he care. We all know his motive and rationale behind practically everything he says is to have taller buildings. What's new?
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Vancouver > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:19 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.