Downtown Eastside - DTES Issues

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

There is one big reason why all the free handouts are still going despite them not working: they support a whole slew of industry benefiting from the government funding, be they SRO housing, injection site workers, healthcare system, security, pharmaceutical and medical equipment companies, needle manufacturers, etc. etc., these organizations employ a large number of people sucking up tax payers' money. Certainly not a good excuse in any way you see it, as the primary objective of solving the issues is actually put on the sideline. I think people in these sectors of the industry actually are the ones supporting the system, and decry an end to it, and calling others who oppose the system as "unsympathetic" or even "heartless".

Exactly. You do get a lot of the free needles ending up in the back lanes and parks, potentially harming people. Should sue those giving out these harmful paraphernalia. Also more are dying on the streets: be they from overdoses or simply wasting their bodies away.

Here are a couple of other recent articles on the DTES that offer some different opinions and explanations of the problem. CBC ran a lot of interviews last week; here's the summary piece, "But a big reason why things seem much worse comes down to geography and density. "There's been a lot of gentrification in that area," said Dr. Mark Tyndall, a leader with the province's Opioid Overdose Response team. "It's really changing, it's pushing people more out on the streets ... and what we consider the DTES has dramatically shrunk," said Tyndall, who has spent 20 years working in the area.

Star Vancouver also wrote a long article, and another on the evictions on Oppenheimer Park.

One important thing to note from your comment - while needles lying around are not to be condoned, "The risk to the public is extremely low, no one has ever acquired HIV or any other pathogen from a needle stick injury from a discarded needle.” [Vancouver Coastal Health]

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Here are a couple of other recent articles on the DTES that offer some different opinions and explanations of the problem. CBC ran a lot of interviews last week; here's the summary piece, "But a big reason why things seem much worse comes down to geography and density. "There's been a lot of gentrification in that area," said Dr. Mark Tyndall, a leader with the province's Opioid Overdose Response team. "It's really changing, it's pushing people more out on the streets ... and what we consider the DTES has dramatically shrunk," said Tyndall, who has spent 20 years working in the area.

Star Vancouver also wrote a long article, and another on the evictions on Oppenheimer Park.

One important thing to note from your comment - while needles lying around are not to be condoned, "The risk to the public is extremely low, no one has ever acquired HIV or any other pathogen from a needle stick injury from a discarded needle.” [Vancouver Coastal Health]

Hence no one wants to play in those DTES parks anymore, would you like your kids or pets to be there? The syringes even pollute the waterways. This unnecessary siege is totally avoidable if all organizations cease giving out free syringes. No syringes, no problem or hazards to the public. Those addicts should not be able to lay their hands on them. Syringes should be treated as a gun: a potential weapon to kill.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...isis-1.4269196


By the way, the Oppenheimer park campers are refusing to leave. In fact, more tents are being set up by new people, perhaps in the hopes of getting even better housing, using your tax money?

https://globalnews.ca/video/5814997/...penheimer-park

Perhaps one day people start camping at your own backyard, and the police isn't doing anything because of potential UN "human rights" violations, I would love to hear from you again regarding this issue. Have the UN folks thought about the rights of the real tax-paying local residents and businesses nearby?

Happening elsewhere means someone else's problem, right?

[jlousa]

I've said it before and I'll say it's again. The 4 pillars approach only works when all 4 pillars are enacted. We gave up completely on enforcement and ended up with a 4 legged stools with only 3 legs and the whole thing has fallen apart. You need all 4. They were 1) Harm reduction 2) Prevention, 3) Treatment and 4)Enforcement we put everything into Harm reduction due to pandering and even prevention and treatment have lost out.

[WarrenC12]

I think we are on a 1 legged stool here. It's all harm reduction. Very little treatment and prevention. Enforcement is totally gone, including indirectly related issues like leaving needles everywhere, constant minor property crime, etc.

[logan5]

Insite would be more effective if more addicts were convinced to go there, exchange needles, not doing there drugs out on the street, etc. So if the police aren't encouraging this, then that's part of the problem.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

Hence no one wants to play in those DTES parks anymore, would you like your kids or pets to be there? The syringes even pollute the waterways. This unnecessary siege is totally avoidable if all organizations cease giving out free syringes. No syringes, no problem or hazards to the public. Those addicts should not be able to lay their hands on them. Syringes should be treated as a gun: a potential weapon to kill.

Ah yes, you're obviously pining for the Good Old Days where we had a different sharing economy - all the drug users sharing needles and giving each other HIV and hepatitis.

I think WarrenC12 is correct about the one pillar; I suspect one reason we see so many needles is because that's the one thing that's still funded adequately, so users aren't reusing or sharing needles like they used to. Part of the CBC series included an interview with the city's former co-ordinator of drug policy, who pointed out that the 4 Pillars approach barely had two years before the Harper government was elected, pulled out of all federal support and tried to close Insite. So very little could advance through the life of that government, while fentanyl started to show up with greater frequency. The Liberals haven't really come back with much more funding until a little under a year ago when they announced $71.7 million in emergency funding to improve access to addiction treatment services in B.C, but it's not clear whether that's actually funded any new programs or facilities yet.

[jlousa]

Aww yes let's blame the Harper Conservatives for the mess that is the dtes. As if it doesn't predate that by several decades. You figure if the Tories had their way they would've locked up every user with their tough on crime agenda but we know that never happened. If we are being factual the four pillars was approved in 2001, the Tories didn't come to power till 2006 so not quite the 2 yrs stated above. Let's not look to Ottawa, this is in large part a problem exacerbated by local civic polcies. San Francisco and other PNW cities are in the same boat as no on has the courage to stand up and do what needs to be done. Stop pandering and tackle the problem from multiple angles.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Let's not look to Ottawa, this is in large part a problem exacerbated by local civic polcies. San Francisco and other PNW cities are in the same boat as no on has the courage to stand up and do what needs to be done. Stop pandering and tackle the problem from multiple angles.

Exactly. Time to get tough before we end up like San Francisco.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Aww yes let's blame the Harper Conservatives for the mess that is the dtes. As if it doesn't predate that by several decades. You figure if the Tories had their way they would've locked up every user with their tough on crime agenda but we know that never happened. If we are being factual the four pillars was approved in 2001, the Tories didn't come to power till 2006 so not quite the 2 yrs stated above. Let's not look to Ottawa, this is in large part a problem exacerbated by local civic polcies. San Francisco and other PNW cities are in the same boat as no on has the courage to stand up and do what needs to be done. Stop pandering and tackle the problem from multiple angles.

Sure, the Four Pillars were agreed in 2001, but Insite opened in the fall of 2003, and that was one small element of harm prevention - which ran for less than three years before the Conservative Government was elected, and by 2008 were trying to withdraw funding. Other elements of the Four Pillars have never really been funded.

I agree entirely, the problems of substance abuse in the DTES go back for decades, and those substances (and the concentration of users) have changed, and become more concentrated over time. I'm not an apologist for the current situation, and I don't have simple solutions. I'm reasonably certain that stopping supplying clean needles won't help (in fact the opposite), and I'm equally certain that, like the shortage of low income housing, it's way beyond the city's remit, but they're picking up some of the costs anyway. Insite is part federally and part provincially funded - and it doesn't solve anything except the unnecessary death's of some intravenous drug users.

Several current health officials seem to favour stabilizing the situation by supplying clean drugs, cutting out the criminal aspects of supplying and obtaining the drugs. Even if a government were to make that move, it's probably only going to marginally change how things seem on the streets in that area.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I think WarrenC12 is correct about the one pillar; I suspect one reason we see so many needles is because that's the one thing that's still funded adequately, so users aren't reusing or sharing needles like they used to. Part of the CBC series included an interview with the city's former co-ordinator of drug policy, who pointed out that the 4 Pillars approach barely had two years before the Harper government was elected, pulled out of all federal support and tried to close Insite. So very little could advance through the life of that government, while fentanyl started to show up with greater frequency. The Liberals haven't really come back with much more funding until a little under a year ago when they announced $71.7 million in emergency funding to improve access to addiction treatment services in B.C, but it's not clear whether that's actually funded any new programs or facilities yet.

Free needles is a problem. They have no value, so people take as many as they can and throw them wherever they want when they are done.

Putting a deposit on them (even giving them out free) would be better, however then you'd have people looking for them and poking themselves. At least, that's the argument.

I've read that treatment facilities are completely full. If that's the case, we need more spaces. If there are spacing available and not being used, we need to consider forcing people in there.

[SFUVancouver]

For what it's worth, I clearly remember going on an elementary school field trip to a non-profit arts organization in a warehouse space a block away from Oppenheimer Park for a crazy arts and crafts day. We got to make things out of giant appliance boxes, rolls of fabric and carpet, lumber, and all sorts of stuff that kids wouldn't be allowed near these days. We had hammers and nails, saws, glue, paint, big staplers, etc. It was amazing and by the end of the day we collectively made this room-sized town full of structures and were all covered in paint and glue. I also clearly remember that we took our lunch break in Oppenheimer Park where we had a picnic on the grass. Can you imagine that today? A class full of elementary school kids with a teacher and maybe a couple parent volunteers. We took the bus, walked through the neighbourhood, and had a picnic lunch in Oppenheimer Park. This was in the early 90s and the place hadn't gone off a cliff quite yet. I remember there being some rough-looking people ("winos" and "bums" in the un-PC vernacular of the time that even children knew, without necessarily understanding the meaning of the words) but I don't remember feeling unsafe and kids pick up on adults' anxieties even if they don't understand the cause.

This was the building where the arts organization used to be based: https://goo.gl/maps/4FMHwVDkawuZp9PA6

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Here are a couple of other recent articles on the DTES that offer some different opinions and explanations of the problem. CBC ran a lot of interviews last week; here's the summary piece, "But a big reason why things seem much worse comes down to geography and density. "There's been a lot of gentrification in that area," said Dr. Mark Tyndall, a leader with the province's Opioid Overdose Response team. "It's really changing, it's pushing people more out on the streets ... and what we consider the DTES has dramatically shrunk," said Tyndall, who has spent 20 years working in the area.

Star Vancouver also wrote a long article, and another on the evictions on Oppenheimer Park.

One important thing to note from your comment - while needles lying around are not to be condoned, "The risk to the public is extremely low, no one has ever acquired HIV or any other pathogen from a needle stick injury from a discarded needle.” [Vancouver Coastal Health]

Just one more ill effect of the housing bubble then. People pushed out of one area move to the next one down the economic rung and gentrify it, but where do the people on the bottom rung have to go?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Just one more ill effect of the housing bubble then. People pushed out of one area move to the next one down the economic rung and gentrify it, but where do the people on the bottom rung have to go?

Indeed. Here's a 1980 reference on the topic...

[source]

[cairnstone]

Very true especially in the USA. Some cities are run by the developer, Union and organized crime

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Ah yes, you're obviously pining for the Good Old Days where we had a different sharing economy - all the drug users sharing needles and giving each other HIV and hepatitis.

I think WarrenC12 is correct about the one pillar; I suspect one reason we see so many needles is because that's the one thing that's still funded adequately, so users aren't reusing or sharing needles like they used to. Part of the CBC series included an interview with the city's former co-ordinator of drug policy, who pointed out that the 4 Pillars approach barely had two years before the Harper government was elected, pulled out of all federal support and tried to close Insite. So very little could advance through the life of that government, while fentanyl started to show up with greater frequency. The Liberals haven't really come back with much more funding until a little under a year ago when they announced $71.7 million in emergency funding to improve access to addiction treatment services in B.C, but it's not clear whether that's actually funded any new programs or facilities yet.

I did say "no needles to be sold". Needles should be prescribed and should not be so easily available and handed out for free! There is no rationale for that. Police should treat syringes like weapons and should be taken away and destroyed. If syringes were not so widely available from the get-go, perhaps a few generations of people would not be addicted in the first place. Should be thinking outside the box of the root causes. One wrong turn causes more wrongs to come into place, thus creating this mess we have today. Throw in a few new potent drugs of this generation, such as fentanyl, and the situation goes out of whack.

When Larry Campbell was the mayor to implement the four-pillar approach, I knew the strategy was destined to fail, as rate of funding would only go through the roof, and it is always relying on subsequent government funding. That's because you don't give free drugs to people and expect less will become addicted, or that their bodies would be free of drugs in no time. You are merely encouraging more people to use and prolonging their miserable deaths, causing lots of pain to the addicts and those around them. The only ones who stand to gain are, like I said, those employed in the sector. The losers: society as a whole, especially tax payers and businesses.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Indeed. Here's a 1980 reference on the topic...

[source]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Just one more ill effect of the housing bubble then. People pushed out of one area move to the next one down the economic rung and gentrify it, but where do the people on the bottom rung have to go?

Let's face it, without gentrification and foreign money, Vancouver's downtown would be a huge dump today. Seymour street would still be a street of warehouses, clubs and hookers, and Coal Harbour would be, well, a coal harbour. Forget about the Shangri-la and Trump towers because these will likely be abandoned structures on a duck pond when local developers run out of funding. If foreign money did not help in the gentrification process through developers like Concord Pacific, Yaletown of today would cease to exist. It would now likely only be a couple of rows of dilapidated, tagged and vandalized brick warehouses surrounded by lots of gravel on-grade parking lots, some of them occupied by homeless campers. Without any productive industry, we would be a reflection of Detroit or other depressed American cities. Perhaps drug trade would be a major industry running amok here.

A few areas haven't seen through much gentrification today: mainly East Hastings from Columbia to Main a a little beyond, and much of Granville street south of Robson. These places are the worst of downtown Vancouver and are rotting.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

For what it's worth, I clearly remember going on an elementary school field trip to a non-profit arts organization in a warehouse space a block away from Oppenheimer Park for a crazy arts and crafts day. We got to make things out of giant appliance boxes, rolls of fabric and carpet, lumber, and all sorts of stuff that kids wouldn't be allowed near these days. We had hammers and nails, saws, glue, paint, big staplers, etc. It was amazing and by the end of the day we collectively made this room-sized town full of structures and were all covered in paint and glue. I also clearly remember that we took our lunch break in Oppenheimer Park where we had a picnic on the grass. Can you imagine that today? A class full of elementary school kids with a teacher and maybe a couple parent volunteers. We took the bus, walked through the neighbourhood, and had a picnic lunch in Oppenheimer Park. This was in the early 90s and the place hadn't gone off a cliff quite yet. I remember there being some rough-looking people ("winos" and "bums" in the un-PC vernacular of the time that even children knew, without necessarily understanding the meaning of the words) but I don't remember feeling unsafe and kids pick up on adults' anxieties even if they don't understand the cause.

This was the building where the arts organization used to be based: https://goo.gl/maps/4FMHwVDkawuZp9PA6

There are many, including the camping sympathizers, who want to deny your rights to enjoy your own city park.

As for the Oppenheimer Park neighbourhood, perhaps things would have been so different if the Japanese Canadian residents living there were not kicked out of the neighbourhood, incarcerated in the interior and their property sold off by the City and Province, and that it is still part of the old Japan Town.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Vin

Let's face it, without gentrification and foreign money, Vancouver's downtown would be a huge dump today. Seymour street would still be a street of warehouses, clubs and hookers, and Coal Harbour would be, well, a coal harbour. Forget about the Shangri-la and Trump towers because these will likely be abandoned structures on a duck pond when local developers run out of funding. If foreign money did not help in the gentrification process through developers like Concord Pacific, Yaletown of today would cease to exist. It would now likely only be a couple of rows of dilapidated, tagged and vandalized brick warehouses surrounded by lots of gravel on-grade parking lots, some of them occupied by homeless campers. Without any productive industry, we would be a reflection of Detroit or other depressed American cities. Perhaps drug trade would be a major industry running amok here.

A few areas haven't seen through much gentrification today: mainly East Hastings from Columbia to Main a a little beyond, and much of Granville street south of Robson. These places are the worst of downtown Vancouver and are rotting.

Such nonsense.

Every city in Canada, heck most of North America, has undergone a renaissance without having to whore itself out to foreign capital. And even then, longtime residents know Vancouver was quite a pleasant place before the arrival of such "benefits". There was certainly not the level of homelessness and disorder on the DTES.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Such nonsense.

Every city in Canada, heck most of North America, has undergone a renaissance without having to whore itself out to foreign capital. And even then, longtime residents know Vancouver was quite a pleasant place before the arrival of such "benefits". There was certainly not the level of homelessness and disorder on the DTES.

DTES says it all: that's Vancouver for you. It had been in existence decades before foreign money came in.

The level of homelessness just highlights the social and work culture that exists among a growing portion of the local population, irregardless of foreign money coming in. There are people choosing a lifestyle and ending up on the streets while many others work hard to grab a piece of the economical growth pie and make lives better for themselves, and now we have people like you coming up with all kinds of excuses for the former. That's worse than your version of "whoring out to foreign capital". No matter how you see it, all sectors of the economy require your so-called "whoring". Name one that doesn't.

Vancouver may not be as nice a place to live in for you and many others due to unaffordability, but the suburb cities have become way nicer urban centres to live in since Expo 86: just look at New Westminster, Surrey Central, Coquitlam Central, Metrotown, Brentwood, Lonsdale, etc.. It really depends on how the pace of development is catching up to the number of people invited to live here. DTES: that's one of the few places getting worse: and I have to blame this City and its policies.

Many cities in North America may have gone through some sort of renaissance, but most of them have become worse when it comes to homelessness and street order. Just look at Detroit, San Francisco, LA, and recently Seattle. It's a North American scourge due to bad city policies. Thankfully most Canadian cities are still bringing these problems under control, with the exception of DTES in Vancouver.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Such nonsense.

Every city in Canada, heck most of North America, has undergone a renaissance without having to whore itself out to foreign capital. And even then, longtime residents know Vancouver was quite a pleasant place before the arrival of such "benefits". There was certainly not the level of homelessness and disorder on the DTES.

Foreign money is now causing junkies and the mentally ill to go on a rampage on the DTES? LOL that's a stretch even for you