Baseball or Basketball - what would do better here?

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

In the article above, Stern says this will be his final term, which should end in six years. However, he is strongly championing his long-time deputy as the next commissioner.

Here's to hoping that his long-time deputy has some understanding, and humility (something stern lacks a lot of). vancouver is a great market for the NBA, and can outperform some of the current NBA markets (charlotte? milwaukee? minnesota?) if given a successful run at a franchise (please, win more than 23 games).

i'd like to see a franchise run like the old grizz in van were, and still be in the city (size of the market relative to van, of course, clippers are an exception, considering they are in LA).

[YTOmike]

I think Vancouver could support MLB. In my view, the city has the size, wealth, and culture in which MLB could thrive. 

As a visitor from Ontario, I recently attended a Vancouver Canadians game and was struck by many things about the experience, especially the fans. The Nat was sold out. The crowd was loud, nearly all stayed the entire game (which stretched well over three hours), and was diverse in age, gender, and ethnicity. They knew their baseball. This is a single A ball club we're talking here, playing out of a relatively inaccessible ballpark. An MLB team in a prominent location could build significantly on this fan base.

Baseball has a wide appeal in this city. The strong Asian population - amongst whom baseball is very popular - would give MLB in Vancouver an edge over other pro sports such as the NBA.

Don't let the Grizzlies experience scare you - the NBA is a different beast and basketball, I submit, is not nearly as popular generally as baseball. As well, the Grizzlies had to compete with the Canucks for fan dollars (since the seasons overlap almost entirely). An MLB team would run against the Lions and Whitecaps, both of which have relatively few home games compared with an MLB team, and both of which would be easier for an MLB team to compete with than the Canucks were for the Grizzlies.

MLB could work here. Don't sell the city short - Vancouver is a large, world-class city. There are smaller cities with less wealth that are able to support MLB teams.

[Zassk]

I can only go by what I see in the kids' leagues in my area (Richmond). Baseball and softball have declining enrolments, have no strategy to attract new members, and have made no progress in skills development. They are losing their members mainly to the soccer and hockey associations, which have made great strides in self-promotion and in skills development in recent years, and are rapidly breaking down racial and gender boundaries.

Maybe it is different in other parts of the Lower Mainland, but what I see here is a systematic rejection of baseball by the young generation in favour of these other sports. This does not look like the kind of market that is ripe to support a professional baseball team.

Basketball is a different story. Basketball is not so much of a young kid's sport, so it's harder to judge on the same terms, but it seems to be really thriving at high school and up. Anecdotally, places like the Oval are heavily used for basketball, and new outdoor facilities are still being built for it. The "Steve Nash generation" seems to be going strong, regardless of the loss of the Grizzlies, and I get the impression that the NBA would do better here today than it did the first time around.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I can only go by what I see in the kids' leagues in my area (Richmond). Baseball and softball have declining enrolments, have no strategy to attract new members, and have made no progress in skills development...

One way to promote baseball is to have at least a AAA team, which would be a higher profile team than what we have now. I'm not sure if baseball or softball is part of the phys. ed program in Richmond elementary schools, but that would help.

I think baseball just isn't popular in Richmond because Metro Vancouver teams have represented Canada at the Little League World Series for the last 7 years, so we must be doing something right.

MLB doesn't overlap with hockey the way the NBA does, so MLB may be a better fit for Vancouver. Milwaukee has a metro area population that has almost 1 million less people than Vancouver and they support NBA and MLB. And Vancouver's metro population is on par with a lot of MLB cities that support 2,3, and in one case 4 big league teams.

Vancouver is an outdoorsy type city and baseball caters to that aspect of our city. Given our cities strong baseball roots, we should at least have a AAA team, and when that's a smashing success we can start considering an upgrade to MLB. A triple A team would probably be more profitable than the Lions and Whitecaps combined - it's just a matter of getting the right people to build a top notch venue.

[thedan8]

Originally Posted by logan5

Vancouver is an outdoorsy type city and baseball caters to that aspect of our city. Given our cities strong baseball roots, we should at least have a AAA team, and when that's a smashing success we can start considering an upgrade to MLB. A triple A team would probably be more profitable than the Lions and Whitecaps combined - it's just a matter of getting the right people to build a top notch venue.

The problem with making the jump to AAA is that it adds a lot of costs for very little extra revenue. The casual fan, which are the vast majority of Canadian's fans, won't notice the difference between single A and AAA. At least it won't be an extra draw. AAA it starts in early April as opposed to single A which starts in mid June. That's 2 and a half extra months of trying to sell tickets to fickle fans in rainy Vancouver. The costs of travel and roster are much higher. Also the Canadians would have to raise money to renovate that Nat to accommodate around 10K fans. This would lead to a surge of nimbys.

Single A ball is a bit of a cash cow in Vancouver. The cost/benefit isn't there to make the jump.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by thedan8

The problem with making the jump to AAA is that it adds a lot of costs for very little extra revenue. The casual fan, which are the vast majority of Canadian's fans, won't notice the difference between single A and AAA. At least it won't be an extra draw. AAA it starts in early April as opposed to single A which starts in mid June. That's 2 and a half extra months of trying to sell tickets to fickle fans in rainy Vancouver. The costs of travel and roster are much higher. Also the Canadians would have to raise money to renovate that Nat to accommodate around 10K fans. This would lead to a surge of nimbys.

Single A ball is a bit of a cash cow in Vancouver. The cost/benefit isn't there to make the jump.

My plan would be to build a new AAA stadium (upgrade-able to MLB standard like they have in Buffalo) some where in the downtown area, so it is accessible by transit or by walking. The Nat is pretty much a neighborhood ballpark.

The top AAA teams draw an average of 8000 - 9000 fans per game. Vancouver could surely match or beat that with a proper venue. (not an upgraded Nat). Coca cola field in Buffalo has a capacity of 18 000. Build a similar venue in Vancouver that's near transit and we would fill that stadium on a lot of summer evenings.

A well run AAA team is even more of a cash cow because the player salaries are paid for by the parent club.

[phesto]

Originally Posted by thedan8

The problem with making the jump to AAA is that it adds a lot of costs for very little extra revenue. The casual fan, which are the vast majority of Canadian's fans, won't notice the difference between single A and AAA. At least it won't be an extra draw. AAA it starts in early April as opposed to single A which starts in mid June. That's 2 and a half extra months of trying to sell tickets to fickle fans in rainy Vancouver. The costs of travel and roster are much higher. Also the Canadians would have to raise money to renovate that Nat to accommodate around 10K fans. This would lead to a surge of nimbys.

Single A ball is a bit of a cash cow in Vancouver. The cost/benefit isn't there to make the jump.

Agreed. To be fair though, the average AAA team in the PCL only averages about 5,000 in attendance per game. Even if you factor in dismal crowds in April and May, we would likely still be in the upper half of the league in attendance. Add to that the potential draw and marketing opportunities of being the AAA affiliate of the Blue Jays would add interest (the current affiliation is less than compelling) and Rogers would see accretive value and strengthening of the Blue Jays' TV ratings locally.

I don't think the ongoing operational costs would outweigh the benefit but certainly expanding the Nat or building a new stadium would be prohibitive without something like financial support/partnership from a parent like Rogers.

[GMasterAres]

Not sure about MLB. They barely make it work in Seattle. And comparing to the Canadians I don't know. You'd be going from a 90something long season to 162 games. That's around 70 more games you have to sell. Not to mention roster prices go way up which means ticket prices need to go way up. You then look at the schedule and realize an MLB team would then be pretty much overlapping the BC Lions and Vancouver Whitecaps seasons.

So you have 3 teams now competing directly for fans vs the Canucks all by themselves. From a business standpoint I think it would make more sense to have a basketball season which in essence shares the NHL season. The Canucks are a fixture and that would leave in the hockey "off season" the Lions and Whitecaps to themselves.

Just my thoughts. To me I dislike both baseball and basketball so I don't care either way. I just think from a business standpoint MLB would be much harder to sell and succeed in Vancouver vs basketball.

[phesto]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Not sure about MLB. They barely make it work in Seattle. And comparing to the Canadians I don't know. You'd be going from a 90something long season to 162 games. That's around 70 more games you have to sell. Not to mention roster prices go way up which means ticket prices need to go way up. You then look at the schedule and realize an MLB team would then be pretty much overlapping the BC Lions and Vancouver Whitecaps seasons.

So you have 3 teams now competing directly for fans vs the Canucks all by themselves. From a business standpoint I think it would make more sense to have a basketball season which in essence shares the NHL season. The Canucks are a fixture and that would leave in the hockey "off season" the Lions and Whitecaps to themselves.

Agreed. I posted about this in another thread, but you'd need to make a business case for selling 2,000,000 tickets and an 81 game schedule.

Compare that to our current sports teams (from most recent season, home games not including preseason or playoffs):

Canucks - 41 games, 773,000
Lions - 9 games, 270,000
Whitecaps - 17 games, 363,000
Canadians - 24 games, 146,000
Giants - 35 games, 246,000

Even if you add playoff games to the above, you'd be proposing to double the amount of pro sports ticket sales in Vancouver; no easy feat...

[logan5]

Originally Posted by phesto

Agreed. I posted about this in another thread, but you'd need to make a business case for selling 2,000,000 tickets and an 81 game schedule.

Compare that to our current sports teams (from most recent season, home games not including preseason or playoffs):

Canucks - 41 games, 773,000
Lions - 9 games, 270,000
Whitecaps - 17 games, 363,000
Canadians - 24 games, 146,000
Giants - 35 games, 246,000

Going to a baseball game is far cheaper than going to a hockey game. The cheapest seat for a Blue Jays game is $11, while the cheapest seat for a Canucks game is over $60 (excluding some very limited promotions). It costs less to go to a baseball game than it does to go to a movie.

The single A Vancouver Canadians average over 4000 people per game, with ticket prices ranging from 12.50 to 22.00 dollars, for as low a profile a team that you could possibly get in Vancouver. Baseball is the one sport that can attract people just for the sake of being at the ballpark.

Build a park around downtown, and with our spectacular setting and our high population density, you are going to get good crowds.

[YTOmike]

Agreed. And Phesto, your numbers look staggering but I suspect the routinely sold-out Canucks could easily sell more tickets if there were more games or the arena was bigger. The sports fan dollars are out there, you just need to provide a product for sale.

Baseball would become the #2 sports draw in the city. The Lions, Whitecaps and Canadians might suffer, but a MLB team could make a go here.

As for triple A, the triple A team that moved to Sacramento in 1999 was here for over 20 years. The move was not necessarily related to profitability, but rather to bring the team closer to its parent, Oakland. However, playing out of the Nat may not have been ideal for a club of at level, so a new ballpark would be needed anyway.

Let's hope someone with the financial wherewithal is reading this and tries to prepare a business case.

Originally Posted by logan5

Going to a baseball game is far cheaper than going to a hockey game. The cheapest seat for a Blue Jays game is $11, while the cheapest seat for a Canucks game is over $60 (excluding some very limited promotions). It costs less to go to a baseball game than it does to go to a movie.

The single A Vancouver Canadians average over 4000 people per game, with ticket prices ranging from 12.50 to 22.00 dollars, for as low a profile a team that you could possibly get in Vancouver. Baseball is the one sport that can attract people just for the sake of being at the ballpark.

Build a park around downtown, and with our spectacular setting and our high population density, you are going to get good crowds.

[EastVanMark]

Vancouver Canadians keep packing the Nat
More fans go to C’s games than 11 triple-A teams across North America

BY STEVE EWEN, THE PROVINCE SEPTEMBER 5, 2015

MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL ATTENDANCE

As of Saturday morning

1. Charlotte Knights (Triple A International League) 9,428
2. Indianapolis Indians (Triple A International) 9,253
3. Sacramento River Cats (Triple A Pacific Coast) 9,159
4. Columbus Clippers (Triple A International) 9,016
5. Lehigh Valley IronPIgs (Triple A International) 8,787
6. Round Rock Express (Triple A Pacific Coast) 8,571
7. Buffalo Bisons (Triple A International) 8,228
8. Daytona Dragons (Single A Midwest) 8,206
9. El Paso Chihuahuas (Triple A Pacific Coast) 8,154
10. Albuquerque Isotopes (Triple A Pacific Coast) 8,007
11. Nashville Sounds (Triple A Pacific Coast) 7,965
12. Durham Bulls (Triple A International) 7,740
13. Toledo MudHens (Triple A International) 7,699
14. IowaC ubs (Triple A Pacific Coast) 7,531
15. Louisville Bats (Triple A International) 7,525
16. Oklahoma City Dodgers (Triple A Pacific Coast) 6,955
17. Salt Lake Bees (Triple A Pacific Coast) 6,823
18. Frisco Rough Riders (Double A Texas) 6,820
19. Pawtucket Red Sox (Triple A International) 6,537
20. Fresno Grizzlies (Triple A Pacific Coast) 6,401
21. Birmingham Barons (Double A Southern) 6,352
22. Rochester Red Wings (Triple A International) 6,291
23. Brooklyn Cyclones (Short Season Single A NewY ork-Penn) 6,213
24. Reading Fightin Phils (Double A Eastern) 6,044
25. Richmond Flying Squirrels (Double A Eastern) 6,003
26. Fort Wayne Tin Caps (Single A Midwest) 5,964
27. Tulsa Drillers (Double A Texas) 5,858
28. Vancouver Canadians (Short Season Single A Northwest) 5,815


http://www.theprovince.com/sports/ew...417/story.html

[EastVanMark]

Tremendous accomplishment by the C's. They beat out a number of Triple A teams who play in larger, more comfortable ballparks, and only the Brooklyn Cyclones who play in a history soaked, large-scale baseball hotbed in a superior ballpark beat them from their own level. The work Andy Dunn & Co. have done in the past seasons has really paid off. Perhaps the C's could teach the other pro teams in this city how to properly market their respective teams.

[EastVanMark]

The Summer weather definitely benefited the team no question, but there are 21 other short season league teams, and only 1 beat them in the attendance count. And although it certainly would be true that drawing in fans in early Spring and Fall has historically and would always be a challenge, the exact opposite could also be said about a better ballpark in a more advantageous location drawing in more fans.

[LeftCoaster]

We used to have a AAA team. It moved to Sacramento in 1999...

[go_leafs_go02]

The thing is, you won't get probably AA or AAA baseball playing in the Nat. That place has its charm, but a new ballpark, that's more central and better located would be key to getting a team of that level back.

[thedan8]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

The thing is, you won't get probably AA or AAA baseball playing in the Nat. That place has its charm, but a new ballpark, that's more central and better located would be key to getting a team of that level back.

The only AA baseball leagues are either on the East coast,Texas, or The South. It's AAA or nothing for Vancouver.

[Vancity]

Oakland A's may be looking for a new home. Vancouver?

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Vancity

Oakland A's may be looking for a new home. Vancouver?

All we need is a suitable ballpark and an owner. Other than those 2 small obstacles they're practically here!

[phesto]

The Seattle Mariners set consecutive record lows for attendance earlier this week at just over 10,000 fans per game...

http://mynorthwest.com/76/2249155/Lo...as-NOT-a-fluke

This further proves my point that baseball in April and May in Vancouver would be an absolute disaster as far as attendance goes.