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  #81  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2010, 9:59 PM
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That's the logical next step, but the current plan is a 30 year build out. Plus, showing more single family homes more than a block of King Ed/41st and Cambie turning into townhomes or rowhomes would scare the living shit out of the current residents and there would be absolutely no support for the plan.

I am disappointed to see in the renders that the King Ed & Cambie intersection is only 6 storeys (4 at 23rd/24th). What is the incentive for developers to rezone the property? Up to 2.5 FSR is discretionary now under current C-2 zoning and they wouldn't have to wait 18-24 months to deal with the process, public hearing, CACs, not to mention minimum LEED Gold requirement. Even worse on the other side of Cambie. Who in their right mind is going to knock down a perfectly good 3 storey office building only to replace it with 6 storeys of mixed use? It makes no sense!
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  #82  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2010, 10:14 PM
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I don't understand this hard on they have for densifying the corridor but not the stations? They have 6 story buildings all along Cambie, but two blocks away from the stations it's just single family housing...Why not have concentric rings of density around the stations with arms up the major arterials?
Because that would make too much sense - and upset too many of the nieghbours. The major arterials are already "devalued" properties because of the heavy traffic.

I agree that a "Kerrisdale" model should be adopted.
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  #83  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2010, 3:11 AM
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Thanks for the links. I studied them earlier today and I'm disappointed, but not due to the height. The height is actually fine (with the exception of the Southern end which is too tall. The issue is the density numbers. They are much too low to make most of it economically feasible. You would need ~3.5fsr to make things work (rezoning). The city normally hires outside consulates to examine the numbers and report back, not sure if they have done so here.
Hopefully what happens here is the city is able to sell the public on the height and then bring in the uneconomical feasibility subject and increase the density to make this work, density is usually an easier sell then height.
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  #84  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2010, 6:26 PM
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I was talking to a number of planners about the possibility of blanket rezoning (by the city themselves) of a number of blocks in order to spur development. It would not only make things quicker, but cheaper too. I do not like the minimum LEED Gold requirement, I think it makes a tough development situation even worse, but 18-24 months, public hearing, CACs, art amenity and all that crap really makes it tough. Obviously some sections could not have blanket rezoning, Oakridge, Langara Gardens, and the corners that go with them, but Cambie from King Ed south to 39th/40th all is planned to be 4-6 storey townhomes. Same with 43rd-48th, all 6 storey mixed use. Why not guess take a bunch of the guesswork (and time) out of the development process and get the ball rolling? The Canada Line has been in operation for over a year now, by the time something actually gets built (there are only 2 developments in the pipeline in the area, one on 41st, the other midblock on the west side of Cambie around 46th) it will be 3-4 years after the line was completed. And that's just the start! The city should rezone large portions of the corridor now, they could build in the CACs and keep the LEED Gold certification (though I don't think they should) but it would get things moving. Look at North Vancouver. The District rezoned Marine Drive from Tatlow to MacKay and development is booming. LedMac was the first with Touchstone, then Qualax Landmark with District Crossing, Onni has started on the Drive (and have 2 other sites), the Executive Group picked up a small site where the old Moustache Cafe is, and First Cap has started the ball rolling on the small site next door (and across from the Save-On). There is no way that much would have happened this quickly with individual rezonings. I urge everyone on this forum to email in their comments even if they didn't make it to the open houses. Staff realize they have to setup an online questionnaire, but in the meantime they said just email stuff in because they want feedback. Us level-headed, development and density-friendly SSPers are greatly outnumbered by the Nimbies who consistently show up to these open houses.
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  #85  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2010, 7:47 PM
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Just wait for the NIMBY heads to explode when the RCMP sites on either side of Heather along 37th Ave gets rezoned for condos after the RCMP Division HQ moves to Surrey. To turn a profit, I can see Olympic Village -scale buildings being built on that site.

Cooler heads may realise its better to have the RCMP site changed into condos, rather than keep it as a commercial zone surrounded by a residential area.

If it doesn't get rezoned for condos, would the locals be happier if the Childrens hospital or the BC Womens hospital took over those buildings to expand further south from 33rd Ave to 37th Ave?


A complication in rezoning these sites after the RCMP decamp to Surrey is the former Langara School on Heather & 33rd that the RCMP has been using as their training academy since 1920. Its on the Federal Heritage Registry, so whatever happens to the area has to accommodate preserving that building (but not the surrouding grounds).


I've heard whispers that after the RCMP move away, Vancouver Police Dept wants to build their new HQ on one of the sites - even though the VPD have just started moving out of the Main St buildings and into the empty VANOC buildings (owned by City of Vancouver) on Boundary.
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  #86  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 3:11 AM
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^^And to add to that the Oakridge bus lot that is mostly used now for those shuttle buses!
If translink really needed the space can they work something out t include space underground? Would be pretty neat if they could.
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  #87  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 4:11 AM
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The issue with pre-zoning is it doesn't necessary increase the cases of things getting redeveloped. It certainly speeds up the process though for the projects that do advance. But what happens is as soon as you pre-zone that property is now worth significantly more and the potential profit for the developer has been greatly reduced. It also pisses off existing owners, as although their property is now worth more, they are now also paying taxes on that new valuation regardless of if they intend to redevelop or continue using the property as is. The city also loses out big time as there is no land lift to share. The cities portion of land lift is what pays for amenities like community centres and libraries, more so then DCLs which get eaten up by everything citywide.
There isn't really a case of one being better then the other, but it's fair to say the city prefers the rezoning process as they can negotiate more out of developers, while developers tend to favor pre-zoning but not always.
I'll have to admit as a citizen we are better served by the rezoning process even if it takes longer, the city improves more.
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  #88  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2010, 4:54 AM
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Originally Posted by SpikePhanta View Post
^^And to add to that the Oakridge bus lot that is mostly used now for those shuttle buses!
If translink really needed the space can they work something out t include space underground? Would be pretty neat if they could.
I think Translink is discovering the usefulness of the Oakridge site to store buses &tc between the rush hours, since it's closer to downtown than the new facility on Marine Dr.

I've thought for a while that the Oakridge Translink site would be perfect for an underground streetcar/tram maintenance facility, with condos above. We just need to get Translink & the City to decide on Streetcars/Trams on 41st Ave from UBC to Joyce Station, and on the Arbutus corridor to downtown.

They could still build an underground maintenance facility at Oakridge for the community shuttles &tc, with provisions to convert it to rail later.
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  #89  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2010, 3:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jsbertram View Post
I've heard whispers that after the RCMP move away, Vancouver Police Dept wants to build their new HQ on one of the sites - even though the VPD have just started moving out of the Main St buildings and into the empty VANOC buildings (owned by City of Vancouver) on Boundary.
That move actually isn't too bad... the VPD station on Boundary is way too far from the main populated areas in Vancouver... unless Burnaby was to agree on a VPD detachment patrolling their streets it'd make sense to relocate to offices in the city centre like the old RCMP offices.

Of course, that does raise the question of having to move twice. =S
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  #90  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2010, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Vancouver Sun

City of Vancouver accused of taking too much profit on Cambie corridor

VANCOUVER — Development of the Cambie corridor is being “paralyzed” because the City of Vancouver is taking too much of the profits resulting from property rezonings, the Urban Development Institute says.

Paul Sullivan, chair of the UDI taxation committee, said at least three potential developments along the new Canada Line have fallen apart because the city is being too aggressive in seeking community amenity contributions when rezonings take place.

The city uses the money — an average of 75 per cent of the profits resulting from rezonings — for community amenities like parks and seniors’ centres.

“We need to strike a balance. Everybody needs to get a piece of this or we aren’t going to get on with development,” Sullivan said. “Right now I’d call it paralyzed.”

But city planner Brent Toderian said realtors and homeowners are setting unrealistically high prices for their properties, making it hard for development proposals to work financially.

He said the city’s long-standing practice of taking on average 75 per cent of the profit or “land lift” from rezonings to pay for parks and other public services shouldn’t be sacrificed because homeowners set unreasonable prices that developers then pay.

“[Community amenities are] a cost that a reasonable seller and a reasonable buyer have to include in the purchase. But what I’m hearing is going on in the Cambie corridor is that there are some exorbitant prices being asked for the land,” he said.“Developers are trying to explain they have to pay development cost levies and community amenity contributions as a part of rezoning, and many homeowners and realtors are saying they don’t care.”

In February, the city’s planning department will take to council a new neighbourhood plan for the corridor. Council’s policies are expected to dictate how the area, from Southwest Marine Drive to King Edward, will develop over the next 50-100 years, Toderian said.

But in the meantime, developers have been rushing in to buy single-family homes along the street and consolidate them into properties large enough for higher-density highrise residential projects. That has created a sellers’ market, with homes that would normally sell for $1.5 million going for double and triple that because the owners know the properties will be upzoned.

The city says it makes sense to make developers carry the cost of providing community amenities when their projects add density and pressure to an existing neighbourhood. But the developers say they can’t afford the city’s demands after factoring in the hot land costs.

David Goodman, a Vancouver realtor who publishes The Goodman Report real estate newsletter with his son Mark, said he knows of a number of developers who are walking away from projects because they feel the city is being unreasonable. He also has development interests in the corridor but wouldn’t discuss or identify them.

He blames the city’s Vision Vancouver council, which he says sees developers as walking bank accounts.

“I would say it is because council members who are a little left of centre are not grounded in architecture, planning or development. It is an alien world to them,” he said. “It is because they have restricted supply and the city is in stagnation mode.”

He said the city needs to cut back the percentage of land-lift profit it takes. “Developers just can’t afford what the city is demanding.”

The process of land development in Vancouver is anything but simple. The city charges a fixed-price “development cost levy” (DCL) when properties are redeveloped. The levy pays for street and underground services. But it also calculates on a project-by-project basis “community amenity contributions” (CACs) when approving rezonings. Such rezonings add significant value to assembled properties.

The city adopted the policy more than two decades ago as a way of both removing the incentive for land speculation and making sure taxpayers don’t have to absorb the burden created by increased neighbourhood demands.

Toderian said the city factors in assessed land costs, the cost of development and leaves the developer with a “generous” 15-per-cent profit on the development.

It then takes between 70 and 80 per cent of the rest of the balance of the land value created by the rezoning, to be used in the neighbourhood for everything from parks to daycare services to seniors’ centres, he said.

“It is important that land change hands with the right expectations, that discipline be part of the transaction and that land speculation not cause problems,” he said. “This is a constant conversation we are having with the land development industry but it has become more pressing.”

But Sullivan, whose UDI committee is trying to find a workable balance, says the city is largely to blame.

“What I am told is the city is well undervaluing the price they are willing to attribute to the homeowner [when calculating CACs]. Where the city wants 75 per cent, they are taking 110 per cent because they are underpricing the homeowner’s interest,” he said.

Maureen Enser, the UDI’s executive director, said Vancouver’s policies are now being adopted with negative results in other municipalities

“It has become a real challenge across the Lower Mainland. I don’t think developers object to paying CACs. But we’re hearing that we have to convince the cities that they need to reduce their expectations,” she said.

Sullivan, a real estate appraiser by trade, said the city could solve the problem by establishing a set amount for CACs that developers can factor into their purchase prices. “What we need is certainty in the policy, not just in the density but in the lift so that land can get priced fairly,” he said. “If you don’t have that it makes it very hard to get a grip on this problem.”

Vision Vancouver Coun. Raymond Louie disagrees.

“I am not sure that a blunt instrument [like set fees] would best serve our citizens. I think a finer-grain discussion or negotiation on what’s appropriate based on what the local needs [are] and what the individual property generates in profit is more appropriate,” he said.

Louie said he doesn’t think the city is willing to compromise on the level of CACs. He also rejects the UDI’s suggestion that development along the corridor has stalled.

[email protected]

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/business...#ixzz18rL9ItYV
Ridiculous. And absolutely the case. We recently walked away from a project on Cambie because the the vendor had unrealistic expectations for his property, but more so because the city was going to take 80%-90% of the land lift on this particular site because it was a "special case". Of course, they wouldn't grant us any extra density to make up for it, just 2 more stories on what is allowed under the current C-2 zoning. Stupid City.
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  #91  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2010, 5:36 PM
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Wow, lots of finger-pointing going on there: Developers blaming the City, City bureaucrats blaming greedy property owners, realtors blaming Vision Vancouver ( ). Where does the truth lie?
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  #92  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2010, 5:49 PM
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Ridiculous. And absolutely the case. We recently walked away from a project on Cambie because the the vendor had unrealistic expectations for his property, but more so because the city was going to take 80%-90% of the land lift on this particular site because it was a "special case". Of course, they wouldn't grant us any extra density to make up for it, just 2 more stories on what is allowed under the current C-2 zoning. Stupid City.
Unfortunately this is the case for larger sites in other areas of the COV as well, including within the Norquay Village Centre area which will prevent rezoning and higher densities from the existing C-2 zoning in the short term.

Basically, the City is aware of the problem, but they don't care. They'd rather see fewer rezonings in the beginning than to forgo the potential sharing in upside in land values.

With respect to the Cambie Corridor, there is still a lot of uncertainty associated with the eventual density that many landowners will be credited. Many didn't even know how much density they had until the most recent open house a few weeks ago, and nothing will be adopted until next year. Until then, it will be difficult to establish land values. Even though there have already been quite a few single family lots sold or conditionally sold to developers (more than most on this forum are even aware) it won't likely be until the 2nd half of 2011 that those developers close and/or push for rezoning. Until then, the CAC's are just an added element of uncertainty that will slow things down.

I don't think this is a catastrophic problem, anytime you do a large scale densification like this there will be a level of speculation on the part of landowners (and the City) that will slow things down a bit. Once the Plan is finished next year things will settle down and rezonings will start to take place in earnest despite the CAC issue.
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  #93  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2010, 6:54 PM
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a simple fact the city seem to be missing on this - people will not go through the hassle of selling thier house and moving unless they are being paid a hefty premium.

something will have to change before you see development
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  #94  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2010, 7:35 PM
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The CAC assessment may need to be more fair to the developers, but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water and change the system. The developers paid for the property. No one made them buy at that price. It sounds like using early 2000s speculation without the same market. Remember the developers chaffed at this policy when it first came, but then found it helped developed a better product and they were taking a reasonable profit. I really like development with amenity benefits and so do many Vancouverites. The city on the otherhand is really reluctant to touch any of its income sources. I think a more NPA council would not give in to a fixed rate or status quo, but rather, would condsider the CAC inline with financial stability of the project. (0% is a lot less than 70%.) They were booted out just before the market crash so its speculation on my part . At the same time, I would add that Vancouver has limited places for this type of zoning in the future where the city has certainty of "if" but not "when".

So is the city really being "greedy" or are the developers complaining after buying a Civic for the price of Lexus?
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  #95  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 12:38 AM
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The problem isn't just the CACs on the land lift. It's much more complicated than that. Let's take for example a 15,000 sq. ft. site on Cambie between 16th & 19th. Currently it is zoned C2 and you can built up to 2.5 FSR and 4 storeys, for a total of 37,500 sq. ft. Under the propose plan you will be allowed to build 6 storeys and 3.0 FSR (45,000 sq. ft). The site would need to be rezoned. Under today guidelines the developer would pay approximately $390,800 in DCLs and undergo around an 12-18 month development permit process.

In order to take advantage of the addition 0.5 FSR, the developer would pay approximately $468,900 in DCLs and pay 75% (likely more) of the increase in value on the additional 7,500 sq. ft. Say the developer paid a ridiculously low price of $200 per buildable, that would result in CACs of $1.125M. So for an additional 7,500 sq. ft. of density, developers are out ~$1.2M before shovels are in the ground (actually before the development permit application has even been made). On top of all of that, because a rezoning is required, the developer has to build the building to meet a certified LEED Gold standard, adding approximately 15% in construction costs and go through a 18-24 rezoning application process (including public hearing) before applying for the development permit.

Sounds like it's worth it huh?
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  #96  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 12:46 AM
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Say the developer paid a ridiculously low price of $200 per buildable


not what i would consider rediculously low...but, good point nonetheless
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  #97  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 12:53 AM
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Meeting LEED Gold does not require a 15% premium. Perhaps LEED Platinum garners that but not LEED Gold.
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  #98  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 1:37 AM
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Our contractor tells us differently. They've built a number of LEED Gold buildings, some come under that number, some at it, but tell us it would be unwise to budget differently.
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  #99  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 6:02 AM
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LEED Gold could be done for ~5% more, just chase the cheap points, it's also decreasing with each passing month.

$200per buildable sf seems quite high, I just sold one of my properties to a big developer for ~$270psf based on lot size, but on a buildable psfage it works out to only ~$70 as the FSR is 3.8.

At the end of the day the current owner wants to capitalize on the new value, while the city wants to be the one to capitalize. The Developer doesn't really care who gets that money, they just don't want to have to pay it twice. The easiest way is to have area set CACs that are charged on a psf basis. Perhaps $25psf on all new density at time of rezoning. Just take all the guesswork out of the process.
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Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 6:44 AM
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Our contractor tells us differently. They've built a number of LEED Gold buildings, some come under that number, some at it, but tell us it would be unwise to budget differently.
Fair enough. To a large degree this is a case of anecdotal evidence on my part based on what I have heard from architects who work in the city. If the builder/contractor side is saying one thing and the design side is saying another then not only is there going to be disagreement but a lot of blown budgets too. Hello value engineering!

Of course so much also depends on the project and whether you are going for actual LEED Gold certification as opposed to LEED Gold equivilency, which is what the CoV rezoning still requires until March 2011, I think, when certification will be required.
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