Carbon Tax Discussions

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

And how can we ask other countries to do something when we aren't doing it ourselves? A lot of people forgot what it takes to be a leader in the world. Besides, its not a very good look to be using 1.6% of the world's emissions with 0.5% of the world's population. We can do better than playing to the lowest common denominator like today's right wants to do. What a sad and dishonourable way to live.

We might only have 0.5% of the worlds population, but what percentage of the worlds population benefits from our exports. Our wood is building homes all over the world. Our oil and gas, our grain, our pork, all this stuff isn’t just produced for Canada. Maybe those other countries buying our stuff can pay the carbon tax instead of hardworking Canadians. And again our climate. This isn’t Alabama or Mexico or Spain. We get rotten weather and it is not fair to penalize us for heating our homes. Many Canadians are already suffering the effects of utility poverty. I do not think the rebates will come close to covering what the actual costs are.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Now assaulting dogs. When will it end.

Stop life!! Then we'll be good.

The suggestion that consideration be given to the carbon impacts of owning a dog is no more or no less legitimate than are reducing auto use and increasing travel by transit or cycling or buying a hybrid or electric over a Dodge Ram Hemi.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

The carbon tax is charged at the source, so they are paying. This is the most efficient way of pricing carbon as it avoids the overhead that would come with targeted regulations. Most people will get more back from their rebate than what they will pay extra in home heating costs (in SK, MB, ON and NB).

For just home heating costs true, but factor in the extra costs for gasoline and food, no.

Sask. will be the most negatively affected of all provinces. Manitoba is in a better position due to a higher share of its energy demands met by renewables and its more urban and concentrated population.

[NotToScale]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Now assaulting dogs. When will it end.

Stop life!! Then we'll be good.

Actually. It would make sense. The world is becoming overpopulated. Less people, less need for consumption

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by NotToScale

Actually. It would make sense. The world is becoming overpopulated. Less people, less need for consumption

What really pisses me off is these mofos who want public resources expended on dog parks when the existing parks are not being maintained to an adequate standard.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by StNorberter

That may have been true 20+ years ago. But the downfall of the PCs federally dragged the remnants of that party significantly to the right.

I agree with this. Some people have asked why all conservatives are being portrayed the same way. The answer is, all conservatives who bother to speak up or vote ARE basically the same these days. Their platform is all about dropping taxes and regulations while eliminating protections for workers and the environment and denying anyone who doesn't fit their mold their basic human rights. I dearly wish there WERE a few modern conservatives who had the guts to say their party has gone too far right and they need to get back to the old PROGRESSIVE Conservative ways, but they are either too few and far between to be heard or they are cowed into silence.

[roryn1]

I’m not reading into the drama of this thread lol, but although most of us in SK have clean air to breath there are areas around SK that don’t. The canola crushing plants and Evraz are definitely places you’ll see a noticeable difference with this carbon tax. Those industries were emitting in ways that are easily mitigated but never had a tax to stop them from ruining a 20km+ radius with participle emissions.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I agree with this. Some people have asked why all conservatives are being portrayed the same way. The answer is, all conservatives who bother to speak up or vote ARE basically the same these days. Their platform is all about dropping taxes and regulations while eliminating protections for workers and the environment and denying anyone who doesn't fit their mold their basic human rights. I dearly wish there WERE a few modern conservatives who had the guts to say their party has gone too far right and they need to get back to the old PROGRESSIVE Conservative ways, but they are either too few and far between to be heard or they are cowed into silence.

Well yeah okay then, that's about as stupid as saying anyone on the left wants a communist state!

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I agree with this. Some people have asked why all conservatives are being portrayed the same way. The answer is, all conservatives who bother to speak up or vote ARE basically the same these days. Their platform is all about dropping taxes and regulations while eliminating protections for workers and the environment and denying anyone who doesn't fit their mold their basic human rights. I dearly wish there WERE a few modern conservatives who had the guts to say their party has gone too far right and they need to get back to the old PROGRESSIVE Conservative ways, but they are either too few and far between to be heard or they are cowed into silence.

Just for clarification the conservative parties in Canada have not really gone further right, in fact they slowly drift left as time goes on. On the other hand the parties on the left keep pushing further left which is why conservatives appear to be going further right. If you look at their stances on things nothing has really changed aside from being more open to things like gay rights.

Most conservatives don't deny that climate change is happening nor do they deny that there's a human contribution. But they're sick of being talked condescendingly to and being told that they're deniers like they don't believe the holocaust happened or something. I speak as a more conservatively minded person and I'm sick of the thinly veiled lie that somehow the government taking more of my money will fix this. It doesn't work. The money just goes into a black hole and facilitates more bureaucracy.

We all want the same thing, a clean environment. My suggestion is that we make plastic bags and other disposable packaging illegal for starters. Boom! easy and effective. Second, put in place some actual transit that would incentivize people to use their cars less. Provide a viable alternative and they'll do it voluntarily. Third, if we really care about the remaining emissions at that point, give research grants to companies involved in alternative propulsion methods.

Oh and by the way, Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs. We have such a large area of forest that that amount of carbon we emit is absorbed by trees many times over.

If you're serious about climate change you have to compel China and India to abandon coal. Nevermind all those developing African countries too. All I say to you us good luck convincing those places to go back to impoverishment.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

The reason why folks talk down condescendingly to conservatives is because they are extremely uninformed about the facts and the dire state we are in, as evidenced by your entire post (some of your suggestions are good start but they don't go nearly far and fast enough, while other things you say, like that "Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs", is a ridiculous and illogical argument). I'm not going to bother addressing each point of yours though because they have been discussed ad nauseam here, by researchers and climate scientists and in the media. Here is a start for you if you want to do your own research (this, specifically about the carbon tax): https://ecofiscal.ca/10-myths-about-...ing-in-canada/

This is precisely what I'm talking about.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

The reason why folks talk down condescendingly to conservatives is because they are extremely uninformed about the facts and the dire state we are in, as evidenced by your entire post (some of your suggestions are good start but they don't go nearly far and fast enough, while other things you say, like that "Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs", is a ridiculous and illogical argument). I'm not going to bother addressing each point of yours though because they have been discussed ad nauseam here, by researchers and climate scientists and in the media. Here is a start for you if you want to do your own research (this, specifically about the carbon tax): https://ecofiscal.ca/10-myths-about-...ing-in-canada/

The earth is in the centre of the solar system. That simply can not be questioned.

The authoritarian new left is so dogmatic as to reject outright any amount of evidence whatsoever to the contrary of their positions. They now consider the traditional left and moderates to be "far right", and they sometimes call themselves "liberals", a grammatical absurdity.

[StNorberter]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The earth is in the centre of the solar system. That simply can not be questioned.

This might just be the stupidist thing I've ever read on the internet.

Do you believe the earth is a flat plate as well?

[Ando]

This whole thread is really just a thinly disguised political discussion so why not call it that? It has little to do with the environment and one certainly wouldn’t learn much about the science of climate change here. It’s not going to move the needle of knowledge very far. Seems pointless.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

The sad thing is climate change should not be a political issue. It should be the one thing that brings us all together because not one person, rich or poor, Saskatchewanian or British Columbian, Canadian or Italian, will be uneffected by this. But because a certain segment of the population only reacts to direct effects, unable to see the forest for the trees, it becomes politicized by opportunistic parties who seek to profit and gain power from such ignorance, division and lack of cooperation.

Coming off the coldest winter in recent memory, give me an f’n break with your looney tunes doomsday nonsense. Have you ever noticed that the biggest climate change preachers always do the opposite of what they tell the rest of us to do? What do you drive? What do you heat your home with? What device did you use to post on this forum? I can’t wait to laugh at all you clowns 12 years from now when nothing has changed just like all the previous failed doomsday predictions. Just for fun, I’m gonna take my F-150 out for a rip for no reason because reading your cult-like nonsense just pissed my off. Cheers

[Migs]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Just for clarification the conservative parties in Canada have not really gone further right, in fact they slowly drift left as time goes on. On the other hand the parties on the left keep pushing further left which is why conservatives appear to be going further right. If you look at their stances on things nothing has really changed aside from being more open to things like gay rights.

Most conservatives don't deny that climate change is happening nor do they deny that there's a human contribution. But they're sick of being talked condescendingly to and being told that they're deniers like they don't believe the holocaust happened or something. I speak as a more conservatively minded person and I'm sick of the thinly veiled lie that somehow the government taking more of my money will fix this. It doesn't work. The money just goes into a black hole and facilitates more bureaucracy.

We all want the same thing, a clean environment. My suggestion is that we make plastic bags and other disposable packaging illegal for starters. Boom! easy and effective. Second, put in place some actual transit that would incentivize people to use their cars less. Provide a viable alternative and they'll do it voluntarily. Third, if we really care about the remaining emissions at that point, give research grants to companies involved in alternative propulsion methods.

Oh and by the way, Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs. We have such a large area of forest that that amount of carbon we emit is absorbed by trees many times over.

If you're serious about climate change you have to compel China and India to abandon coal. Nevermind all those developing African countries too. All I say to you us good luck convincing those places to go back to impoverishment.

Outstanding post!

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Unsurprising post from a Trump supporter filled with logical fallacies, a misunderstanding of weather vs climate, and of course, a rejection of science. Bravo.

Exactly! The total misunderstanding and deliberate misrepresentation of all science that doesn't fit their world view is a signature trait of the far right. So are the ludicrous argument that, somehow, Canada shouldn't have to lift a finger to slow climate change until other polluters do something first.

They seem content with an insipid "I'm not going to act (on climate change), you act....why should I act, you're not acting....I'll act when you act...." dialogue. They might as well be saying "I'm not lowering the lifeboat, you lower the lifeboat....why should I lower the lifeboat...you're not lowering it...?" while the ship is sinking.

The reasons (that the right will ignore, of course) are that 1) as a contributor to climate change and as (currently) a country of grown-ups who acknowledge their responsibility, we have a responsibility to clean up our own patch, no matter what other folks are currently doing 2) by doing this we demonstrate to other countries that lowering one's "canon footprint" can be den and is beneficial and 3) by being a leader we develop and demonstrate clean technologies that will profit the country currently and in the future.

There's the word that the far-right always ignores in this argument.....profit!!!!$$$$$$ For a crew that seems to thrive on the notion of personal gain, the potential for profit from clean technologies is constantly ignored.

Canada could...and should...be making a bundle on developing clean technology and selling it around the world! I'm sure the "big polluters" would love to buy something that really works...after all, their own cities are sometimes choking n their own pollution. Instead, they keep on promoting oil as the only "sensible" option for the country and the world. Well, it's not "sensible" to keep on whipping a dying horse to make it pull the cart faster. Oil should, and IMO must, go the way of coal and become a peripheral industry if climate change is gong to be slowed to manageable levels and future generations have a decent planet to live on.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Unsurprising post from a Trump supporter filled with logical fallacies, a misunderstanding of weather vs climate, and of course, a rejection of science. Bravo.

Yes the Trump administration, the one that has lowered their CO2 emissions moreso than most countries with climate taxes who are signed onto the Paris Agreement. And it’s funny how the climate fear-mongers like yourself say you can’t use weather events to disprove global warming but the first big rainfall or heatwave proves it. Laughable. Sorry to see you falling for this cult-like climate religion, you’d think most people would’ve leaned after the 6th or 7th false doomsday prediction passed. Gonna go outside & enjoy this beautiful spring day. Cheers.

[1ajs]

stop digging trenches u guys.

the real issue that really needs to be said is were looking at now not 20 years out 40 yrs out. government sure doesnt care much about that far out they are only concerned about now as thats what keeps u elected the fundimental flaw of democracy and the lack of proper action on this issue

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

stop digging trenches u guys.

the real issue that really needs to be said is were looking at now not 20 years out 40 yrs out. government sure doesnt care much about that far out they are only concerned about now as thats what keeps u elected the fundimental flaw of democracy and the lack of proper action on this issue

I agree. the need for action on this issue is immediate and urgent. i seriously wish we could stop "digging trenches" as you said, but that would require a mature and serious discussion of the facts of the issue from both sides.

Unfortunately, the climate deniers see "facts" as subjective and open to manipulation and outright falsehood. Have the Paris Accord countries reduced their carbon footprint like they promised? No, for the most part they have failed up to now. This doesn't give license to the opposition to somehow claim climate change isn't happening, or that their guy has somehow reduced carbon emissions by ignoring the facts of climate change and gutting environmental protections.

Like I and other have pointed out before, one shouldn't waste their time arguing with fools. All we can do is hope to make our case as clearly and convincingly as possible and appeal to the rational segment of the voting population. The deniers will still shriek, threaten, mock, lie and generally make a lot of indignant noises, but hopefully they can be ignored long enough for all countries to take meaningful steps to stop destroying the world we share.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Wrong. It’s patterns and frequency of weather and overall average temperatures that are pointed to in terms of weather identifying climate change. This information is freely accessible and fairly easy for anyone to understand if they really wanted to. I can see why a science-denier would be scared to accept it though as doing so would cause their entire world view to come crashing down.

Anyone who uses the word denier loses all credibility immediately. Science is skepticism and skepticism is science. And if you are really dumb enough to think the point of a carbon tax is to deter behaviour, wouldn’t giving rebates kind of defeat the whole point? It’s all about the money, yet the climate doomsayers like yourself preach to others while doing little themselves. Why didn’t you answer the questions I previously asked you?

What kind of vehicles does your family own?
What do you use to post on forums?
How do you heat your home?
How did you get to your last vacation destination?