Canadian Transit Thread II

[Doady]

Originally Posted by cranes

People are talking about a proposed Hamilton LRT line which won't open until 2030..2031..(who actually knows) vs an already built & operating line in Kitchener. They're comparing actual 2023 Kitchener LRT ridership vs expected 2031(?) Hamilton LRT ridership and then concluding the latter's going to be double. Why not compare expected 2031 vs expected 2031 ridership ... that would seem to make a lot more sense. Same thing goes for frequency.

No one said that the Kitchener LRT won't have 50,000 boardings in 2031 to match the Hamilton LRT. They are just comparing the projected ridership of the Hamilton LRT to the current ridership of the Kitchener LRT. They said nothing about the ridership of the Kitchener LRT in 2031.

Originally Posted by cranes

GRT had a transit strike during 2023 as well.

Again, the current system wide ridership of GRT vs. HSR has zero relevance to future ridership of any particular line of either system.

Originally Posted by cranes

I'll repost GRT's monthly #s. Instead of just dismissing my crude FTM estimation, please give me an estimate/methodology of what you think the forward 12 month total looks like.

["The September Multiplier"]
I took the total of Sept 2022 - Aug 2023 = 23.36 million
Divided by Sept 2022 (2.00 million) = 11.68
Multiplied by Sept 2023 (2.89 million) = 33.75 million (Sept 2023 - Aug 2024 crude estimate)

Even in the chart you posted, you can see the GRT year-over-year growth steadily decreasing each month in 2023. The growth in January 2023 compared to January 2022 was 159% as the ridership in January 2022 was only 42% of pre-pandemic levels.

You cannot group September 2022 and August 2023 into the same period because the ridership in September 2022 was 93% of pre-pandemic levels while the ridership in August 2023 was 134% of pre-pandemic levels.

The ridership in September 2023 was 33.8% higher than in September 2019. So the annual ridership is more likely to be around 29.38 million now, not 33.75 million.

According to the news article you posted, GRT are planning an increase of 46,900 hours of service in 2024. A 6% increase in service is not enough to handle 44% more riders.

[Beedok]

I didn’t meant to start a fight about ridership, I just had questions about frequency.

(It does seem like the HSR is likely to climb out of its slump between the LRT and the bus fleet increase, but I see that as a ‘rising tide helping everyone’ trend for all Canadian cities.)

[thebasketballgeek]

Just to further illustrate the disparity in transit ridership between Canadian and American cities, if the lists were combined Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver would take the #2,3, and 4 spots just behind NYC and ahead of LA.

[hipster duck]

Transit has really fallen off a cliff in the US since the pandemic. Cities that once had decent ridership by US standards like San Francisco have fallen to Sunbelt levels.

About 20 years ago, the TTC and WMATA had similar absolute ridership counts; I think WMATA may have even edged out the TTC.

[Dengler Avenue]

(Toronto) Sheppard East Subway Extension Townhall: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/sheppar...=oddtdtcreator

[Luisito]

Thanks for sharing tis,this is great. Despite all the complaints I read abut the TTC they actually have a good amount of ridership and it will get better. Chicago has much larger subway system than toronto (more lines, length etc) and only half the ridership of Toronto. What's going on there??

LA, despite being a much bigger city is actually not too bad considering its metro system is the newest. They are building more lines as we speak and have more planned for the future. There is a lot going on there.

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Just to further illustrate the disparity in transit ridership between Canadian and American cities, if the lists were combined Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver would take the #2,3, and 4 spots just behind NYC and ahead of LA.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Thanks for sharing tis,this is great. Despite all the complaints I read abut the TTC they actually have a good amount of ridership and it will get better. Chicago has much larger subway system than toronto (more lines, length etc) and only half the ridership of Toronto. What's going on there??

LA, despite being a much bigger city is actually not too bad considering its metro system is the newest. They are building more lines as we speak and have more planned for the future. There is a lot going on there.

The CTA is a very different beast than the TTC. While there's a large rail network frequencies are much lower than any of the subway lines, and feeder buses also seem much more infrequent. The system (with some exceptions) never had the significant "white-collar" component you see on the TTC. I've ridden the L many times over rush hour and you simply don't see nearly as many office workers as you would on the Toronto subway. Also evidenced by the plethora of above-ground parking garages in the Loop / River North. Last time I was there a year or so ago it seemed noticeably more run down and kinda sketchy compared to the TTC, and a friend (who I've travelled to Chicago with before) said that it's gotten worse since, if anything.

LA with it's expansive bus system is probably more analogous to the GTA than older rail-based cities.

[Taeolas]

The last CMA without Sunday Transit service is FINALLY getting it. Coming in Spring 2024.

Fredericton New Brunswick will have Sunday Transit service in Spring 2024

Sunday Service is coming to Fredericton.

Beginning as early as Spring 2024, buses are expected to run between 9 a.m. and 6 p.m. on Sundays. This new service also includes Para Transit. The move comes after Fredericton City Councillors voted in favour of the 2024 budget on Monday, Nov. 27 that would see Sunday Transit Service added. While customers can expect to see similar levels of service to Saturday, there will be some changes to bus routes. The goal is to provide a more direct and robust service to customers who need it most on Sundays.

“We have been working hard over the past year to ensure this service becomes a reality,” said Charlene Sharpe, Transit Manger for the City of Fredericton. “We look forward to providing Sunday Service to customers in the coming year and we hope it will inspire more people to take the bus in the future.”

Fredericton Transit plans to introduce new concepts, such as route changes, that can be considered for future changes throughout the rest of the week. These new service concepts would improve the customer journey and get customers to where they need to be in a timely manner. Route changes will be brought to Mobility Committee for their review with public consultations to take place prior to implementation.

Earlier this fall, Fredericton Transit released a survey through Engage Fredericton to better understand how to improve the rider experience, particularly on Sundays. Fredericton Transit has also been working closely with the Fredericton Chamber of Commerce, Downtown Fredericton Inc., and Business Fredericton North to determine how to serve our customers best.

“For years, former Councils have strived to implement Sunday Service,” said Councillor Bruce Grandy, chair of the City of Fredericton’s Mobility Committee. “Now we are finally able to bring this long-awaited service to reality because of the new direction Fredericton Transit has been undertaking in its Master Plan. This is a moment in time that deserves to be celebrated.”

Fredericton Transit will be sharing more information about the new service changes in the coming months.

It's something that's been demanded for decades now, and the cries for it have just been getting louder and louder in recent years.

At one point, the city tried to throw the Union under the bus as a reason why Sunday service wasn't possible. The Union promptly (Like they had a solution in place that would allow Sunday service at reasonable costs) within a week of that excuse coming out, showing the Union wasn't the one limiting the city in this respect.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by niwell

The CTA is a very different beast than the TTC. While there's a large rail network frequencies are much lower than any of the subway lines, and feeder buses also seem much more infrequent. The system (with some exceptions) never had the significant "white-collar" component you see on the TTC. I've ridden the L many times over rush hour and you simply don't see nearly as many office workers as you would on the Toronto subway. Also evidenced by the plethora of above-ground parking garages in the Loop / River North. Last time I was there a year or so ago it seemed noticeably more run down and kinda sketchy compared to the TTC, and a friend (who I've travelled to Chicago with before) said that it's gotten worse since, if anything.

LA with it's expansive bus system is probably more analogous to the GTA than older rail-based cities.

The Chicago loop lines have mediocre frequency but the subway (Red and Blue lines) frequency is good. Or at least it was prior to the pandemic. The Red line apparently ran every 2 minutes peak.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The Chicago loop lines have mediocre frequency but the subway (Red and Blue lines) frequency is good. Or at least it was prior to the pandemic. The Red line apparently ran every 2 minutes peak.

The Red Line is the best for sure, probably due to the locations it serves (particularly in the North). Blue line is fine but I've definitely waited well over 10 mins for a train on multiple occasions. Which isn't fun on the elevated portions in winter.

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Yeah 10+ minutes is pretty crappy for a metro line unless it's on an outer branch or something (although Blue doesn't have any branches). I wonder if it was regularly scheduled service or due to some sort of service disruption.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by niwell

The CTA is a very different beast than the TTC. While there's a large rail network frequencies are much lower than any of the subway lines, and feeder buses also seem much more infrequent. The system (with some exceptions) never had the significant "white-collar" component you see on the TTC. I've ridden the L many times over rush hour and you simply don't see nearly as many office workers as you would on the Toronto subway. Also evidenced by the plethora of above-ground parking garages in the Loop / River North. Last time I was there a year or so ago it seemed noticeably more run down and kinda sketchy compared to the TTC, and a friend (who I've travelled to Chicago with before) said that it's gotten worse since, if anything.

Interesting. Makes sense. Chicago should try to improve that because it looks like they have a great system. I have never been on the L but one thing I will say bout the CTA is I love their trains, I love the fact they are mostly elevated. I hope to make out to Chicago sometime this coming year.

[ssiguy]

I don't find it at all surprising that American transit systems aren't recovering as fast as Canadian ones and one only has to look at Chicago to see why.

Look at a Chicago transit map and you will see a system that is very good at funneling people into the downtown cores but relatively useless for any one who isn't. This is typical of American systems..........people used the systems for work to get downtown but now many of those riders are working from home.

Even in large US cities, the non-downtown service is scarce and often having shockingly low frequencies and when combined with cheaper cars and cheaper gas it is small wonder they are not recovering. This is made exponentially worse by the fact that many Americans will take a train but wouldn't be caught dead on a bus which nearly all suburban services are.

US systems are designed for a 20th century commuting patterns in a 21st century world.

[Doady]

Most people living in the Chicago urban area have no bus service within walking distance. Without so few buses to feed into the rail stations, their rail ridership is going to be low compared to the TTC subway. This is common theme across the US. Chicago has a huge rail network, but it is isolated.

Here is the Pace bus network compared to MiWay at the same scale. Notice how many of the Metra stations have no connecting bus service.

[srperrycgy]

Victoria Park Stampede LRT station in Calgary has been under re-construction for the past few years and after a closure last week, finally open.

• Video Link

[savevp]

Originally Posted by Doady

This is common theme across the US.

Comparing Canadian and American systems is useless except to make us feel good about ourselves. We are worlds apart when it comes to public transportation and to pat ourselves on the back for our superior networks is little more than gloating.

As is usually the case, our peer nations are Australia and New Zealand. Compare ourselves to them and there's actually some value in the discussion.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by savevp

Comparing Canadian and American systems is useless except to make us feel good about ourselves. We are worlds apart when it comes to public transportation and to pat ourselves on the back for our superior networks is little more than gloating.

As is usually the case, our peer nations are Australia and New Zealand. Compare ourselves to them and there's actually some value in the discussion.

In what ways are our cities much more similar to those in Aus and NZ than to the US? Without some pretty convincing explanation, I'm not seeing it. I can think of some ways we're more similar to Aus/NZ like we didn't have the US issues with white flight or the US interstate freeway system. But I can also think of ways we're more similar to the US like we built new urban rail lines in the largest cities rather than continually upgrading and electrifying mainline systems with city-centre loops. And we also had urban renewal schemes more similar to the US. We also tend to have bigger, more US-like stroads once one leaves older city centres. The US also has more grid cities while none of Canada's major cities have radial or meandering layouts like those in Aus/NZ.

From what I can see, Canada's cities are equally similar and dis-similar in various ways to both US cities and Aus/NZ cities. Not seeing the "world's apart" in either case.

[niwell]

IIRC don't Sydney and Melbourne actually have on-par if not slightly lower transit usage than Toronto/Montreal? I admit I haven't looked in a while and it's not clear if trips are measured on the same metric. Both Aus metros tend to have more compact suburban employment areas and big box centres but I don't think we compare unfavourably on the transit front. The big advantage they seem to have is better integrated electrified commuter rail (at the expense of dedicated metro lines) - a gap that should narrow as GO RER and the full extent of REM comes online.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by srperrycgy

Victoria Park Stampede LRT station in Calgary has been under re-construction for the past few years and after a closure last week, finally open.

• Video Link

Nice. Seems far more accessible now.

[ssiguy]

When considering relative sizes, I think Calgary has the best transit system in the country with even more mass expansion underway with the 40km Green Line LRT.

Ottawa too is developing a good rapid transit network.............shame it doesn't work.