The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by travis3000

North Americans buy millions of small cars every year. The Honda Civic alone sells 40-50k units annually just in Canada. Lets not delude ourselves into thinking nobody buys cars... they do. Trucks and SUVS are def more popular here but cars sell quite well.

For a developer trying to make new products though, profits matter. Kinda hard to fund hundreds of million in product development off the back of a sliver of a low cost/low margin small car market.

50 000 Civics may sound like a lot. But that's less than 3% of Canada's auto market. And Honda probably nets $50M max from all Civic sales in the country. Meanwhile, the CRV.....

I'm not arguing that companies shouldn't invest in smaller/lighter vehicles. But I do understand why companies tend to invest in larger and higher margin vehicles first.

Originally Posted by travis3000

If you live in a major metropolis then I can buy your anti car argument. But if you live in the suburbs, or the small towns/country then a vehicle of some sort is absolutely essential. Many people who live in cities choose to own a car for the freedom it brings to pick up and literally go anywhere you want on a whim.

The rural whataboutism is such bullshit in a country where nearly half the population lives in the six largest CMAs. The truth is that we are a country of fat and lazy cheapskates who refuse to fund proper infrastructure in urban and suburban areas, insisting that we can't survive without two SUVs in the driveway. It's going to take more than a generation to change that mindset unfortunately. But at least if we start today, our grandkids might live in a country with infrastructure befitting a first world country.

[ssiguy]

One of the issues with EV sales is that, despite ICE being phased out, is that they will be difficult to resell.

Every year ICE cars have changed usually for the better but the changes are incremental. This means that a 2022 Honda Civic may have better bells & whistles but the basic car is still the same. This is why people feel comfortable buying used cars.

The situation with EVs is vastly different. Battery technology is developing so fast that the changes are not incremental but rather metamorphic. The EV of just 5 years from now will be vastly different from the ones even today. The batteries will be much smaller & lighter, the cars will have significantly longer range and much shorter recharge times.

More than this, the prices are falling which is never happened with cars since the Model T. Why buy a car now when you can get a vastly superior one in 5 years for less money?

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

For a developer trying to make new products though, profits matter. Kinda hard to fund hundreds of million in product development off the back of a sliver of a low cost/low margin small car market.

50 000 Civics may sound like a lot. But that's less than 3% of Canada's auto market. And Honda probably nets $50M max from all Civic sales in the country. Meanwhile, the CRV.....

I'm not arguing that companies shouldn't invest in smaller/lighter vehicles. But I do understand why companies tend to invest in larger and higher margin vehicles first.




The rural whataboutism is such bullshit in a country where nearly half the population lives in the six largest CMAs. The truth is that we are a country of fat and lazy cheapskates who refuse to fund proper infrastructure in urban and suburban areas, insisting that we can't survive without two SUVs in the driveway. It's going to take more than a generation to change that mindset unfortunately. But at least if we start today, our grandkids might live in a country with infrastructure befitting a first world country.

I will say this. I LOVE driving. And as long as Im living I will never not own a car. I love the control, the freedom, the excitement. It's also therapeutic and relaxing to go for a drive.

It's not bullshit, given outside of Toronto you have massive cities like Vaughan, Markham, Mississauga, Milton, Burlington, Newmarket, Barrie, etc that don't have subways. We need cars to get to the grocery store or to visit family that owns acreage in the country. How the hell would you ever visit Muskoka or Blue Mountain... teleport? You need to get your head into reality that the downtown Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver crew are in the minority. The CMA's that surround them are very much car dependent. Cars aren't evil and they will be around for well beyond the time you are on this planet.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

One of the issues with EV sales is that, despite ICE being phased out, is that they will be difficult to resell.

Every year ICE cars have changed usually for the better but the changes are incremental. This means that a 2022 Honda Civic may have better bells & whistles but the basic car is still the same. This is why people feel comfortable buying used cars.

The situation with EVs is vastly different. Battery technology is developing so fast that the changes are not incremental but rather metamorphic. The EV of just 5 years from now will be vastly different from the ones even today. The batteries will be much smaller & lighter, the cars will have significantly longer range and much shorter recharge times.

More than this, the prices are falling which is never happened with cars since the Model T. Why buy a car now when you can get a vastly superior one in 5 years for less money?

For some car companies this might be true. But for Tesla it's not. All their cars have 500KM+ range already, so in 5 years that's where most other car companies will be anyway.

Im planning to trade mine in/resell in 4 years time so I'll let you know how it works out and the number breakdown.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

One of the issues with EV sales is that, despite ICE being phased out, is that they will be difficult to resell.

Every year ICE cars have changed usually for the better but the changes are incremental. This means that a 2022 Honda Civic may have better bells & whistles but the basic car is still the same. This is why people feel comfortable buying used cars.

The situation with EVs is vastly different. Battery technology is developing so fast that the changes are not incremental but rather metamorphic. The EV of just 5 years from now will be vastly different from the ones even today. The batteries will be much smaller & lighter, the cars will have significantly longer range and much shorter recharge times.

More than this, the prices are falling which is never happened with cars since the Model T. Why buy a car now when you can get a vastly superior one in 5 years for less money?

If it is true that battery tech will continue to improve (I hope it does), then I suspect that retro-fitting older vehicles may become a new industry. I recently watched a video of a sailboat being retro-fitted with an electric motor and battery and I'm hopeful that my express crusier can someday be fitted with an electric motor. On another note, I saw a truckload/auto carrier full of Rivian trucks yesterday. I'm holding on to my '08 Ranger until I can replace it with an affordable electric pickup.

[Rollerstud98]

Rich rebuilds on YouTube is putting a Cummins diesel in a Tesla now, this one will not be so subtle as the V8.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by travis3000

I will say this. I LOVE driving. And as long as Im living I will never not own a car. I love the control, the freedom, the excitement. It's also therapeutic and relaxing to go for a drive.

It's not bullshit, given outside of Toronto you have massive cities like Vaughan, Markham, Mississauga, Milton, Burlington, Newmarket, Barrie, etc that don't have subways. We need cars to get to the grocery store or to visit family that owns acreage in the country. How the hell would you ever visit Muskoka or Blue Mountain... teleport? You need to get your head into reality that the downtown Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver crew are in the minority. The CMA's that surround them are very much car dependent. Cars aren't evil and they will be around for well beyond the time you are on this planet.

I definitely enjoy the freedom and control of being able to go where/when I want that a car provides. That's sort of why I'm drawn to the idea of making an ultra efficient car since I don't want to give up the option entirely. Although part of that is down to how much regional mass transportation has degraded in this country over time. When I look at historical railway maps of NS for instance it makes my heart ache. Even during my childhood just a few decades ago the amount of rail and bus service compared to now is mind blowing.

That being said, while cars aren't "evil" (I don't actually believe in the concept of evil) the high degree to which they're used and the infrastructure needed to support that are extremely destructive environmentally. But it's important to include quality of life in any discussion of sustainability, not only to ensure public buy in, but because there's little point to having a planet that supports billions of lives if those people don't actually have enjoyable existences.

[SpongeG]

planning on getting an Ioniq 5. My bf's classmate just got a Tesla 3, she's loving it, now he wants one of those lol.
They look pretty good.


hyundaicanada.com

[SpongeG]

although the KIA EV6 is kinda growing on me too. This guy is in Norway where EV cars are selling well.

• Video Link

[ssiguy]

I have a car and I will never be without one again. I LOVE driving and I would say most other people do as well. It offers the freedom, spontaneity, control, and rush that transit never will.

This is also true for automated cars which is why I think they are much ado about nothing.

[Marshal]

Fully agree ssiguy.

I don't really commute much, and I use transit (Skytrain - a bus if you put a gun to my head) and cycle/walk a lot. My wife has a Tesla and my next vehicle will be electric (with MIN 500Km range).

With privilege acknowledged, I support electrification, but we need an electric people's car - not just affordable, but cheap. I think transit is critical. And we need to incorporate all the electric scooters, assist bikes and other personal modes coming on line.

Architects have a voice in how all these modes can be integrated successfully with the built fabric. A longstanding issue remains, and that is parking. The trend to build high density residential with reduced parking is short sighted. Municipalities need to reconsider this. Cars are not going anywhere, and when electric vehicles become affordable and fully replace combustion cars, they will be extremely popular. Their numbers may make what we have now look small scale. As ssiguy notes, people love driving. If there is a way to do this without being a climate threat, well, it will be business as usual. The only hope of keeping it manageable is to seriously fund and integrate the other options. This means in the cities, but also between cities.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Architects have a voice in how all these modes can be integrated successfully with the built fabric. A longstanding issue remains, and that is parking. The trend to build high density residential with reduced parking is short sighted. Municipalities need to reconsider this.

Why do we need to reconsider this? The average cost of a parking space is anywhere from $25,000 to $50,000 per stall in a parkade. Surely you would also rather have a building on a site then an eyesore known as a surface parking lot.

I get that people like driving, I like driving as well, but to provide high quality public and active transportation there needs to be more density to make the development feasible and used. As well with the high density buildings usually is paired with some form of ground floor commercial to make walking easier and more convenient. If we can truly achieve good alternative forms of transportation it should be easy enough to make 90% of your trips using these other forms of transportation. Let the developers build how many parking spots they want as they understand the market far more then we do. If that means less parking spots for more units so be it.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

planning on getting an Ioniq 5. My bf's classmate just got a Tesla 3, she's loving it, now he wants one of those lol.
They look pretty good.


hyundaicanada.com

The cheap feel of a Tesla interior is a deal-breaker for me.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by travis3000

I will say this. I LOVE driving. And as long as Im living I will never not own a car. I love the control, the freedom, the excitement. It's also therapeutic and relaxing to go for a drive.

Okay? I am not sure what your personal preferences have to do with how we design public infrastructure.

I will say though, I wonder if you'll have the same opinion, if you ever suffer an illness or injury that limits your ability to drive, a higher risk as you age.

Originally Posted by travis3000

It's not bullshit, given outside of Toronto you have massive cities like Vaughan, Markham, Mississauga, Milton, Burlington, Newmarket, Barrie, etc that don't have subways.

First, most of those "massive cities" are part of Toronto CMA.

Next, subways are not the only forms of public transport. In fact, for the vast majority of Canadians, public transport is usually a bus. And I am fairly sure, they have those in every city you listed.

Originally Posted by travis3000

We need cars to get to the grocery store or to visit family that owns acreage in the country.

The fact that you think, it's impossible to feed yourself or visit family without a two tonne steel box should tell you that something is very wrong with the way we design our neighbourhoods and our cities. It also means that if you ever suffer mobility challenges, you risk social isolation and malnutrition. Maybe, we should focus on addressing this problem, instead of perpetuating it with further car dependency? Just saying.....

By the way, Jason Slaughter of Not Just Bikes, said that when they lived in Toronto without a car, the number one question him and his wife got was, "But how do you get groceries?" His wife even started a blog to mock the idea. But here's how groceries should work in sane places:

• Video Link

Originally Posted by travis3000

How the hell would you ever visit Muskoka or Blue Mountain... teleport? You need to get your head into reality that the downtown Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver crew are in the minority.

Ideally, we should have public transport that enables a trip to Muskoka or Blue Mountain. But otherwise, nobody is suggesting that there should be no driving at all. But your example brings up a great point, about how people decide on vehicle purchases: by marginal use case. Because they can only buy one vehicle, they always choose the vehicle that accommodates the marginal use case rather than the average use case. So a pickup truck for the two trips a year to Home Depot or the large SUV for the 3-4 roadtrips to grandma they take annually. And then they drive those large vehicles around all year round between their suburban home and the office. This is terrible for the environment, the roads, their health, and public safety.

In places with decent public transport, car sharing goes up and the services usually have much better selection, letting you rent vehicles that are fit for purpose. Want a convertible for the weekend? Want a small car to run around town for the day? Want a large van to go pickup your new fridge? That is so much better than watching some college kid trying to cram 2x4 into his Honda Civic at Home Depot or watching suburban dad trying to get the new fridge he bought at Sears into his CRV.

Originally Posted by travis3000

The CMA's that surround them are very much car dependent. Cars aren't evil and they will be around for well beyond the time you are on this planet.

I have never once said, "Cars are evil." But designing our cities and suburbs around them is absolutely nonsensical. You should be able to get around without a car for most things. Incidentally, places with low car dependency are also substantially better for drivers. Less traffic. Less skilled drivers. Less pedestrian and cyclist interference (separated by design). Etc. It's not a coincidence that bike friendly Netherlands is rated highly by European drivers. I would think that somebody who loves to drive would actually want this in Canada.

• Video Link

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

The cheap feel of a Tesla interior is a deal-breaker for me.

It's hard to swallow at the price they command. Also the quality defects like panel gaps, paint defects, etc. Not the stuff of $60k+ cars.

On the flip side, Tesla batteries and tech is easily 5 years ahead of the competition, so nobody else can deliver the range and automation features for the same price. Though the gap is starting to close, and there's a threshold for most people where their range requirements are met, and they don't need more.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Architects have a voice in how all these modes can be integrated successfully with the built fabric. A longstanding issue remains, and that is parking. The trend to build high density residential with reduced parking is short sighted. Municipalities need to reconsider this. Cars are not going anywhere, and when electric vehicles become affordable and fully replace combustion cars, they will be extremely popular. Their numbers may make what we have now look small scale. As ssiguy notes, people love driving. If there is a way to do this without being a climate threat, well, it will be business as usual. The only hope of keeping it manageable is to seriously fund and integrate the other options. This means in the cities, but also between cities.

I am not sure you understand the tradeoffs here. Affordable housing and more parking are two competing goals. Given that it can cost $50-100k to build a parking spot in a parking structure, and will go to the upper end of that estimate if electrification has to be included at every spot, the easiest way to make housing more affordable in denser areas is to eliminate parking.

Cars may not be going anywhere, but that doesn't mean you'll get to drive anywhere and everywhere in the future either. At least not for cheap.... When public parking structures start coming in at $68k per spot in urban areas, you should expect that parking is going to be $30-50 in a quite a few urban areas going forward. You will see parking prices go up and free parking becoming more and more scarce as land values go up. No owner of a mall or big box store is going to look at their mostly empty lots of parking spots valued at tens of thousands per space, that only ever fills up at 2-3 peaks per week, and decide it's a good idea to leave that land empty 90% of the time, when developers are knocking on their doors with lucrative offers.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by travis3000

How the hell would you ever visit Muskoka or Blue Mountain... teleport?

The bus. In Korea, I was able to get from the heart of Seoul to Bukhansan National Park via bus with a one seat ride.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

One of the issues with EV sales is that, despite ICE being phased out, is that they will be difficult to resell.

Zero evidence for this. Try and buy any used EV, especially when gas prices are high and see how that goes for you....

There's even stories where 1-yr old used Teslas sell for higher than the purchase price.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Every year ICE cars have changed usually for the better but the changes are incremental. This means that a 2022 Honda Civic may have better bells & whistles but the basic car is still the same. This is why people feel comfortable buying used cars.

The situation with EVs is vastly different. Battery technology is developing so fast that the changes are not incremental but rather metamorphic. The EV of just 5 years from now will be vastly different from the ones even today. The batteries will be much smaller & lighter, the cars will have significantly longer range and much shorter recharge times.

More than this, the prices are falling which is never happened with cars since the Model T. Why buy a car now when you can get a vastly superior one in 5 years for less money?

The pace of price declines is slowing as the EVs approach price parity with ICEV. So this situation isn't likely to hold indefinitely. OEMs most certainly aren't going to be pricing EVs cheaper than ICEVs cars as long as there is a shortage of EVs on the market (likely to be the case for most of this decade).

Also, we're now at the point where changes aren't happening every year but with generational changes in tech (every 3-5 years) for each OEM. For example, Volkswagen will see substantial improvements when it moves from the current MEB platform to the SSP platform in 2026. Till then, you aren't likely to see substantial improvements in VW's current lineups. Maybe they wring out a tad more range as batteries get better. Or add a few more features as they work on the software.

[Nouvellecosse]

When people make statements like "Cars aren't going anywhere" it basically lumps car culture in with uncontrollable natural forces rather than recognizing it as something wholly within the realm of human agency. It is a human decision whether to use a human technology more, less or at the same level, but people love to argue for the decision they want by pretending there's somehow no other choice.

And of course if something is inevitable and we have no control over it, we don't need to justify it. We can conveniently shift the conversation to harm mitigation since that's the "only option."

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

When people make statements like "Cars aren't going anywhere" it basically lumps car culture in with uncontrollable natural forces rather than recognizing it as something wholly within the realm of human agency. It is a human decision whether to use a human technology more, less or at the same level, but people love to argue for the decision they want by pretending there's somehow no other choice.

And of course if something is inevitable and we have no control over it, we don't need to justify it. We can conveniently shift the conversation to harm mitigation since that's the "only option."

Well put. Also, many cities around the world have actually reduced auto infrastructure and/or severely restricted personal auto access. Especially during Covid. It's worked out fine.

Paris turned the highway/roads along the banks of the Seine into this:



https://slate.com/business/2021/09/p...e-hidalgo.html

Utrecht, in the Netherlands, brought back their canals, which were filled in with highways in the post-war era.



https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2...riginal-water/

The former Cheonggye freeway in Seoul is now this:



https://www.cnu.org/highways-bouleva...l-cities/seoul

Used to be this:



By the views of some here, these would be an intolerable crime.

I have a tough time understanding why people who claim they love to drive think the pinnacle of driving is sitting in urban/suburban traffic at rush hour. Save the real pleasure of driving for the countryside.