TCH east of Nipigon (La route transcanadienne à l'est de Nipigon)

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Option 2's what I was trying to get at.

As for twinning 17 till SSM, alternatively, we will have to wreck those 2 towns if Missisaugi 8 FN says no to letting the freeway pass through. Man I've already lost count of how many times I have looked at the google satellite view of that area.

Basically anything North of the French River and West of Deep River will be a nightmare.

The FN will play hardball, and we will be screwed.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Basically anything North of the French River and West of Deep River will be a nightmare.

The FN will play hardball, and we will be screwed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Long Lake 58 is the only FN along the 11 east of Lake Nipigon?? If worst comes to worst, we can still bypass the FN without much difficulty (although that will really be a lose-lose situation). On the other hand, there are many FN's along 17.

As for 17 between Manitoba border and T Bay, besides Shoal Lake 39&40, are there any other?

[vid]

There are a lot of First Nations along those highways, and their traditional lands at a complex patchwork that covers the entire region.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by vid

There are a lot of First Nations along those highways, and their traditional lands at a complex patchwork that covers the entire region.

Can I say (or rather, is it true) that, if it were not for the drug crises among FNs, they would have gladly let 11 be twinned which would have meant cheaper food (and many other things)? Now instead they fear that a better highway means more drugs (as with RofF right now).

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by vid

There are a lot of First Nations along those highways, and their traditional lands at a complex patchwork that covers the entire region.

This is also why 69 is not being twinned nearly as fast aas it could be due to the FN reserves along it's routes.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is also why 69 is not being twinned nearly as fast aas it could be due to the FN reserves along it's routes.

Speaking of that, so far Shawanga FN's cooperative (such that if the deal falls through, it's on the provincial liberals), but I don't know about Harvey Inlet and Magnetawan.
If the deals fall through with those 2, we're talking about lengthy bypasses among rocks...
For Harvey Inlet, twinning will need to go on 522 then south, along the eastern boundary of the FN.
For Magnetawan, the new freeway will have to follow the western and southern boundaries of the FN.
In that extreme case, I don't even know how much extra the twinning's gonna cost...

By the way, today when I looked at the map, I realized that all rail tracks were gone between Longlac and Hearst. Then the one from Longlac going south ends at the suburb of Sudbury, not even joining the mainline along 17. West of Longlac, the tracks were gone once again. Now I realized why twinning should go along 11 instead.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Long Lake 58 is the only FN along the 11 east of Lake Nipigon?? If worst comes to worst, we can still bypass the FN without much difficulty (although that will really be a lose-lose situation). On the other hand, there are many FN's along 17.

As for 17 between Manitoba border and T Bay, besides Shoal Lake 39&40, are there any other?

Along Hwy 11 between Nipigon and Cochrane, the only reserves per se that I can think of that the highway goes through are Lake Helen 53A and Long Lake 58. It does go right along Animbiigoo Zaagi'igan Anishinaabek First Nation (Rocky Bay Reserve on Lake Nipigon) and it appears that widening could actually mean going into First Nation territory. And I'm not sure which First Nation controls this reserve but it is on the North side of the highway for quite a ways. Google maps shows it as "Lake Nipigon Reserve" https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.71039...3510528,13.57z

As vid mentioned, there are other areas that can be part of traditional lands that could be affected. One that I can think of is Taykwa Tagamou Nation which doesn't have an actual reserve but is currently defining its traditional lands that are located between Kapuskasing and Cochrane I believe.

[vid]

CN basically only uses the line that runs up north to get things between Toronto and the West. It's flat so they can run their trains faster and longer than CP can along its lakeshore route. (It's also the route the oil goes since the oilsands are mostly in CN's territory, sparing Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie of potential oil disasters—fuel trains only enter our cities when the local market needs gas or diesel in the winter.) The CN route between Thunder Bay and Geraldton has been gone for years. At this point we're essentially served only by CP.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Can I say (or rather, is it true) that, if it were not for the drug crises among FNs, they would have gladly let 11 be twinned which would have meant cheaper food (and many other things)? Now instead they fear that a better highway means more drugs (as with RofF right now).

No one has actually proposed it. The highways they're complaining about are secondary and tertiary highways being built to serve mining interests, which as originally proposed went straight to the mines and by-passed all of them. They wouldn't let the project advance unless every First Nation were connected to it, but they also don't want the mining to happen because it will be a major disruption to their way of life. Without grocery stores, the bulk of the fresh meat those communities consume is from wildlife they hunt. Mines disrupt wildlife significantly.

As for the drug situation, it is easier to control it now that they're fly in communities, but they still find their way in. They could just set up check points along the road on the entrance to the community but there is no funding for that, some of them only have police in the community for 12 hours a day.

Originally Posted by Loco101

As vid mentioned, there are other areas that can be part of traditional lands that could be affected. One that I can think of is Taykwa Tagamou Nation which doesn't have an actual reserve but is currently defining its traditional lands that are located between Kapuskasing and Cochrane I believe.

Every First Nation has a traditional territory that is used for hunting and fishing, and they generally put a lot of effort into protecting that. Reserves aren't large enough for sustainable hunting, hence the need for traditional lands. Essentially all of Northern Ontario is traditional land for one First Nation or another, and in cases where no specific first nation is claiming it, treaty councils like NAN and tribal councils like Mattawa generally claim it on behalf of all native peoples in the region. So basically we should always operate under the assumption that land in this region is First Nation Traditional Land.

I don't know if Timmins is doing it, but Thunder Bay usually starts every proclamation stating that we're in the traditional territory of Fort William First Nation, and we fly the band's flag at City Hall to represent that.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by vid

Every First Nation has a traditional territory that is used for hunting and fishing, and they generally put a lot of effort into protecting that. Reserves aren't large enough for sustainable hunting, hence the need for traditional lands. Essentially all of Northern Ontario is traditional land for one First Nation or another, and in cases where no specific first nation is claiming it, treaty councils like NAN and tribal councils like Mattawa generally claim it on behalf of all native peoples in the region. So basically we should always operate under the assumption that land in this region is First Nation Traditional Land.

I don't know if Timmins is doing it, but Thunder Bay usually starts every proclamation stating that we're in the traditional territory of Fort William First Nation, and we fly the band's flag at City Hall to represent that.

Timmins isn't doing the traditional territory proclamation at council meetings yet. And no Indigenous flag of any type is flown at city hall. It was only about 5 or 6 years ago that our city hall started flying the Franco-Ontarian flag! I'm sure it won't be long. But here we don't have any nearby First Nations but about 15% of the population is Indigenous. Most moved here from up North but there are a lot being born here now.

But I just read our mayor's state of the city address from this year and he did start off with acknowledging that Timmins is on the traditional territory of the Mattagami First Nation. The actual First Nation reserve is located just North of Gogama, about an hour's drive South of Timmins just off Hwy 144. But historically their territory was from between the watershed (just South of Gogama) North to just North of where Timmins is with the Mattagami River being the main travel route.

[Dengler Avenue]

By the way, people, just wondering, is there a way for me to attach/upload a photo without having to use a link? I wanna show you something cool.
Also how do I delete my own comments?

Then another question: Where the rail tracks used to be, can the province just build the divided freeway there? It's as if "the ground has been cleared for us".
Examples will be 11 through Beardmore and 17 northwest of Petawawa. As for the latter, I'm aware that Renfrew County's owning it at this moment, but the province can just buy it back before it's too late (aka before that part gets turned into a recreational trail).

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

By the way, people, just wondering, is there a way for me to attach/upload a photo without having to use a link? I wanna show you something cool.
Also how do I delete my own comments?

Then another question: Where the rail tracks used to be, can the province just build the divided freeway there? It's as if "the ground has been cleared for us".
Examples will be 11 through Beardmore and 17 northwest of Petawawa. As for the latter, I'm aware that Renfrew County's owning it at this moment, but the province can just buy it back before it's too late (aka before that part gets turned into a recreational trail).

I would prefer it to be a trail for a few reasons:

1) it could be a snow mobile trail in the winter.

2) it could be put back as a rail line. This could mean that we might one day see more passenger rail service.

[Dengler Avenue]

Side note: Here's a question for those of you who wanna link 417 with I-75 at SSM, though - How are we supposed to construct the freeway between Carmen's Way and Black Road, assuming that the freeway will eventually link up onto Second Line? An overpass, a tunel underneath, or more widening and grade-separation of Second Line which will require relocating every store on the north side to empty spots along Highway 17 between Third and Fourth Line? Also, near St Mary's River, should we relocate the custom house too?

At first glance, we should twin the bridge (which obviously requires negotiation with the states) and go onto Carmen's Way. Next, while we can retain the current northbound exit to and southbound entrance from Huron Street, we can extend Hudson Street (north of Cathcart Street) to form the northbound entrance and southbound exit of the freeway. (Tbh the last point might be sketchy because that street looks pretty residential.)

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Side note: Here's a question for those of you who wanna link 417 with I-75 at SSM, though - How are we supposed to construct the freeway between Carmen's Way and Black Road, assuming that the freeway will eventually link up onto Second Line? An overpass, a tunel underneath, or more widening and grade-separation of Second Line which will require relocating every store on the north side to empty spots along Highway 17 between Third and Fourth Line? Also, near St Mary's River, should we relocate the custom house too?

At first glance, we should twin the bridge (which obviously requires negotiation with the states) and go onto Carmen's Way. Next, while we can retain the current northbound exit to and southbound entrance from Huron Street, we can extend Hudson Street (north of Cathcart Street) to form the northbound entrance and southbound exit of the freeway. (Tbh the last point might be sketchy because that street looks pretty residential.)

Swing the highway north of 3rd line. The south down to Carman's Way. Twin Carman's way to the bridge.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Swing the highway north of 3rd line. The south down to Carman's Way. Twin Carman's way to the bridge.

But isn't Fort Creek too environmentally sensitive for that?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

But isn't Fort Creek too environmentally sensitive for that?

They built the Red Hill Parkway, the 404 extension, and the 407 all through environmentally sensitive lands.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

They built the Red Hill Parkway, the 404 extension, and the 407 all through environmentally sensitive lands.

At this point, should I say that Ontario has no hope...?
How did the environmental assessments even pass for those 3 then...

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Side note: Here's a question for those of you who wanna link 417 with I-75 at SSM, though - How are we supposed to construct the freeway between Carmen's Way and Black Road, assuming that the freeway will eventually link up onto Second Line? An overpass, a tunel underneath, or more widening and grade-separation of Second Line which will require relocating every store on the north side to empty spots along Highway 17 between Third and Fourth Line? Also, near St Mary's River, should we relocate the custom house too?

At first glance, we should twin the bridge (which obviously requires negotiation with the states) and go onto Carmen's Way. Next, while we can retain the current northbound exit to and southbound entrance from Huron Street, we can extend Hudson Street (north of Cathcart Street) to form the northbound entrance and southbound exit of the freeway. (Tbh the last point might be sketchy because that street looks pretty residential.)

There won't be a freeway built on the Canadian side from the bridge linking to Hwy 17. That has been looked at and is too complicated and costly. The partial bypass (Carmen's Way) is about as far as improvements will go.

BUT: there have been discussions about a second crosssing over the St. Mary's River. The main reason would be for transport trucks and not having the wait times they experience on the current bridge. The plans is many years away but will likely happen if wait times don't improve.

I've heard that the new route would be a freeway but I've also heard that it might not be at first. Either way, I've seen it leaving I-75 between the 5 Mile road and 3 Mile Road interchanges. It then goes to Sugar Island crossing the St. Mary's River (where it goes into Lake Nicolet) and up the Northwest part of the island. It crosses the North Branch of the river and connects where the 4-lane Hwy 17 bypass around Garden River currently ends at Trunk Road.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Loco101

There won't be a freeway built on the Canadian side from the bridge linking to Hwy 17. That has been looked at and is too complicated and costly. The partial bypass (Carmen's Way) is about as far as improvements will go.

BUT: there have been discussions about a second crosssing over the St. Mary's River. The main reason would be for transport trucks and not having the wait times they experience on the current bridge. The plans is many years away but will likely happen if wait times don't improve.

I've heard that the new route would be a freeway but I've also heard that it might not be at first. Either way, I've seen it leaving I-75 between the 5 Mile road and 3 Mile Road interchanges. It then goes to Sugar Island crossing the St. Mary's River (where it goes into Lake Nicolet) and up the Northwest part of the island. It crosses the North Branch of the river and connects where the 4-lane Hwy 17 bypass around Garden River currently ends at Trunk Road.

In that case, on the Canadian side, I can see all the businesses currently on Trunk Road having to relocate themselves closer to the new border crossing. It's a hassle but that's still doable.

As for SSM in Michigan, though, how's that city gonna let this happen since it will be bypassed completely? :p

Ps: I apologize if I sound cynical about every single proposal (even including mine), but I just see it fit to think from both sides. Also, can someone teach me how to upload photos without having to use any link? Or if that isn't feasible, onto what website should I upload the picture so I can put it here?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

There won't be a freeway built on the Canadian side from the bridge linking to Hwy 17. That has been looked at and is too complicated and costly. The partial bypass (Carmen's Way) is about as far as improvements will go.

BUT: there have been discussions about a second crosssing over the St. Mary's River. The main reason would be for transport trucks and not having the wait times they experience on the current bridge. The plans is many years away but will likely happen if wait times don't improve.

I've heard that the new route would be a freeway but I've also heard that it might not be at first. Either way, I've seen it leaving I-75 between the 5 Mile road and 3 Mile Road interchanges. It then goes to Sugar Island crossing the St. Mary's River (where it goes into Lake Nicolet) and up the Northwest part of the island. It crosses the North Branch of the river and connects where the 4-lane Hwy 17 bypass around Garden River currently ends at Trunk Road.

So, it sounds like the current 17 4 lanes there has actually been future built... That normally doen't seem to happen up here.

Would this be built within the next 10 years? Or would this be like most major projects and delayed until no one is alive to remember it.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, it sounds like the current 17 4 lanes there has actually been future built... That normally doen't seem to happen up here.

Would this be built within the next 10 years? Or would this be like most major projects and delayed until no one is alive to remember it.

I laughed reading that.
Here's the thing though. I tried to look it up but couldn't find anything about it so I suppose it's unfortunately the latter.