Metro Areas by Electric Vehicle(EV) Share of New Auto Registrations, 2023-2024

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

What are the physics involved in why it takes so fucking long to fully charge a battery (any battery)?

I feel like we need a big break through on that front.

Taking a battery from 5% to 100% ideally shouldn't take any longer than filling up a 12 gallon tank with gas.

You're physically moving liquid from one place to another whereas you're "moving" electrons around when you charge a battery. Even with phones, it takes a while to charge up. I think it's the limitations in the battery chemistry.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

What are the physics involved in why it takes so fucking long to fully charge a battery (any battery)?

I feel like we need a big break through on that front.

Taking a battery from 5% to 100% ideally shouldn't take any longer than filling up a 12 gallon tank with gas.

cars just need a ton of power - gas is very energy dense even if a combustion engine only turns 40% of it into actual motive power (which turns into 20% at the wheels after drivetrain loss) these Level 3 charging stations can output up to 350kw to one or more cars, which is an insane amount of power (~150 homes?)

some cars are getting there. evkx.net is an awesome resource that has real world tests of mileage and minute-by-minute charge speeds. some of the quickest charging cars out there are from hyundai and kia. the ionic 5 can charge from 10% to 80% in about 16m, and to 90% in 18m. if you consider that with pumping gas you have to wait at the pump for the 2-3m while you're pumping, then you have to move the car to go into the store, it could easily take 10m or more for a pit stop - whereas with an EV you just plug it in and walk away immediately with no need to move your car.

i have a decent bit of first-hand experience with this (albeit on a limited number of routes) - my folks moved down to central FL a few years ago and i have done a number of drives in my own car or me and my spouse's shared EV. (an EV with absolute shit range for roadtrips - ~200mi basically)

overall, on a 510mi journey, the EV requires one additional stop to charge, and only about an extra 30-40m total trip time. it's so much more comfortable than my little econoshitbox sports car that even with the extra time it feels shorter. (i love my little sports car but it's not cut out for road trips, the drone of road/wind/engine noise is exhausting)

a better route planner is also awesome. it is pretty damn accurate when it comes to total trip times - the state of battery charge between stops and teh amount of time required at any given stop to reach the needed range. https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ you might be surprised at how manageable it is even on longer trips

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

What are the physics involved in why it takes so fucking long to fully charge a battery (any battery)?

I feel like we need a big break through on that front.

Taking a battery from 5% to 100% ideally shouldn't take any longer than filling up a 12 gallon tank with gas.

Until this happens, EVs will never be as good as gas cars. People will get used to higher prices (such as buying songs in iTunes instead of downloading them for free on Napster), and they will get used to a shorter range, but they will not put up with one or both of those and then also put up with "re-filling" a car for 2 hours while making a long, but reasonable, trip. For instance, a drive from Boston to DC with a mandatory 2-hour stop in New Jersey or somewhere that kills the rest of your day will be a dealbreaker for many.

[veep]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

But what about road trips?

More than half of our car's mileage is long distance road trips, cuz we don't use it day to day.

Being able to pull off the interstate whenever the hell we need to and fill up in less than 5 minutes, and then be right back on our way, is a HUGE advantage over EVs.

They gotta find a way to pump those electrons as fast as gasoline.

Most road trips I've taken have at least one 20+ minute stop to eat/stretch legs/be alone for a goddamn second.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

Until this happens, EVs will never be as good as gas cars. People will get used to higher prices (such as buying songs in iTunes instead of downloading them for free on Napster), and they will get used to a shorter range, but they will not put up with one or both of those and then also put up with "re-filling" a car for 2 hours while making a long, but reasonable, trip. For instance, a drive from Boston to DC with a mandatory 2-hour stop in New Jersey or somewhere that kills the rest of your day will be a dealbreaker for many.

a trip between boston and washington DC takes 8h 3m, with one 20m stop in new jersey, in a 2024 polestar 2. (~49k) 20m, not 2hrs!

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...4-44fc4183d123

[JManc]

^ you have a Polestar? They're pretty sharp and seem like a good bang for the buck but the mileage is a bit of a deal breaker.

[cabasse]

i'd picked that one out of a list of the fastest charging EVs in 2024 that seemed to be reasonably priced. i'd rented an older version last year for a short road trip and it kinda sucked WRT charging speeds. (something on the order of nearly 50m to get up to 80-85%!) i'm still holding out for something compact myself, maybe the rivian r3 or a golf ev

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by cabasse

i'd picked that one out of a list of the fastest charging EVs in 2024 that seemed to be reasonably priced. i'd rented an older version last year for a short road trip and it kinda sucked WRT charging speeds. (something on the order of nearly 50m to get up to 80-85%!) i'm still holding out for something compact myself, maybe the rivian r3 or a golf ev

This link is saying 30+ minutes to charge up to 80%, and this is the list of fastest-charging cars. Or, the Polestar is just under 30 minutes (28 minutes), with "10% to 80%", as opposed to other cars saying up to 80%.

My Hyundai has a greater range (about 400 miles highway, compared to 320 for the Polestar), can be refilled in 5 minutes, and is about half the price. Where is the advantage to the Polestar then, besides aesthetics and feeling good about not using gas? This is the kind of stuff that a regular Joe thinks and therefore sticks with gas cars.

[badrunner]

You can't be spontaneous with an EV. No impromptu road trips, or wandering aimlessly. You have to plan out your exact route and all your refueling stops. It kind of takes away from the freedom aspect of owning a car. EVs make great city cars though.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

This link is saying 30+ minutes to charge up to 80%, and this is the list of fastest-charging cars. Or, the Polestar is just under 30 minutes (28 minutes), with "10% to 80%", as opposed to other cars saying up to 80%.

My Hyundai has a greater range (about 400 miles highway, compared to 320 for the Polestar), can be refilled in 5 minutes, and is about half the price. Where is the advantage to the Polestar then, besides aesthetics and feeling good about not using gas? This is the kind of stuff that a regular Joe thinks and therefore sticks with gas cars.

https://evkx.net/models/polestar/2/2...chargingcurve/

assuming you plug in with 10% of battery remaining, it takes about 25m to get from 10%-80%. that link i shared above to a better route planner assumes you leave boston with 100% state of charge, you'll arrive in clark, NJ with 29% remaining. 29% back to 74% is 20m of total charging time (which also lines up with the timestamps from evkx) for the second leg to DC

it's nice not to have to worry about making sure you give yourself extra time to run to the gas station once a week or two, you can always have a "full charge" (or nearly full) every morning if you have access to a home charger. not having to worry about oil changes, transmission fluid, brake pads is also great.

feel free to look back through my previous replies in this thread for other great points worth considering. i'll stop spamming this thread now...

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by badrunner

EVs make great city cars though.

IMO they make terrible city cars, at least presently. They work best with a personal garage, which is inherently anti-urban.

At least ICE vehicles aren't really biased in favor of garage-centric living. They're noisier and more polluting, so definitely some urban demerits, but you can park the thing anywhere without major disadvantage.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by Crawford

IMO they make terrible city cars, at least presently. They work best with a personal garage, which is inherently anti-urban.

At least ICE vehicles aren't really biased in favor of garage-centric living. They're noisier and more polluting, so definitely some urban demerits, but you can park the thing anywhere without major disadvantage.

That's because of shitty charging infrastructure in the US even in the cities. But overall they are much better for cities as daily commuters as opposed to the open road. EVs get better "mileage" in stop and go traffic (the opposite of ICE cars) in the city, no range anxiety, or having to plan out stops at recharging stations ahead of time. I know a lot of people who have an EV as a daily commuter but also own an ICE car for the weekend, for road trips etc.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

But what about road trips?

More than half of our car's mileage is long distance road trips, cuz we don't use it day to day.

Being able to pull off the interstate whenever the hell we need to and fill up in less than 5 minutes, and then be right back on our way, is a HUGE advantage over EVs.

They gotta find a way to pump those electrons as fast as gasoline.

We know they're not for everybody. Personal circumstances will obviously impact everyone's decision. You are likely a person who won't convert until the range reaches something like 500 miles (equivalent to an ICE vehicle). I'm the rare person who lives in an urban environment yet has a dedicated private garage, so I'll likely convert sooner.

But make no mistake. In 20 years we'll all be driving EV vehicles. The most gasoline engine devotees will be able to hope for will be very high mileage hybrids.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Crawford

IMO they make terrible city cars, at least presently. They work best with a personal garage, which is inherently anti-urban.

Mileage-wise in the city (stop-and-go traffic), EVs are actually more efficient than ICEs. EVs don't use power when stopped (excepting accessories like radios and A/C, etc.), and the slower you drive, the less power you use. And as has been mentioned, with regenerative braking, you extend your range by recharging with the braking. Whereas ICE cars get the most fuel efficiency when moving at a constant speed, and a higher speed when the engine is kept at the ideal RPMs; with an ICE car, braking actually makes it less fuel-efficient, because when you have to accelerate, you use up more fuel, and because of the nature of an ICE motor, to get it up to speed again, you need to rev it up more while the transmission has to find a lower gear (or as a manual transmission driver, you must select a lower gear). An ICE car is the least efficient/wastes fuel when idling (of course cars with stop/start feature get better fuel economy with the engine not running when stopped).

It's been my experience on my road trips that many EV drivers on the open road actually don't drive as fast/speed as drivers in ICE vehicles do; my assumption is they're trying to conserve as much battery power as they can. I find myself passing up many EVs when on the open road on road trips.

My sister and her husband both have Teslas with really high battery range. They've driven down from NorCal to SoCal with just one stop midway in central California, with just a one hour charge or something; they probably could have made it to LA on just one full charge, but probably felt they needed to recharge just for peace-of-mind. There are plenty of charging stations in California, and of course there are the Tesla supercharging stations. There's a Tesla supercharging station near me, that for the longest time I didn't realize was a supercharging station. I was wondering why there would be cars parked there at all hours with people sitting in them, and some people even hanging out outside their cars. Hehe I thought it was a cruising area for people hooking up for casual anonymous sex.

Last October, my partner and I did a road trip from Pasadena, CA through Arizona. I don't have an EV, but here's Arizona's map of Tesla supercharging stations: https://www.google.com/search?q=tesl...fi=hd:;si:;mv:[[38.32832320949979,-101.7924034140625],[29.843295423642864,-121.35905380468752]]

It looks like they're mostly in the Phoenix area, because we stayed in Prescott, went up to Jerome, went part-way to Sedona... Would we have been able to do our road trip in an EV, if we didn't go to Phoenix? Well, I guess these are Tesla supercharging stations, but I assume there would be other kinds of EV charging stations here and there.

Where I live, many local city halls have charging stations in adjacent parking lots, and many shopping malls have charging stations.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Mileage-wise in the city (stop-and-go traffic), EVs are actually more efficient than ICEs.

Yeah, I know, but that isn't why I'd own a vehicle in an urban environment. I'd only own one for road trips and special trips such as IKEA. I'd never use it to drive all over town every day. That's called suburban living, in which case I'd rather be in suburbia.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by badrunner

EVs make great city cars though.

Funny, I view our car as a "(get out of the) city car".

EVs can't do what I want a car to do yet.

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

But make no mistake. In 20 years we'll all be driving EV vehicles.

Maybe.

But science really needs to dig into the whole charge time issue.

For me and millions of other city dwellers without garages, they need to make it as simple as going to a gas station and filling up in several minutes.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Crawford

IMO they make terrible city cars, at least presently. They work best with a personal garage, which is inherently anti-urban.

Not if the garage faces an alleyway like in many cities. So it can work. Unfortunately New York doesn't have this. So I don't see EVs ever really working out there.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

Interesting.

Metro Areas by Electric Vehicle(EV) Share of New Auto Registrations, 2023-2024:
12.2%-Washington DC
11.1%-Austin
10.6%-Phoenix
9.1%--New York
9.0%--Atlanta
8.6%--Miami
8.6%--Raleigh
8.2%--Chicago
8.0%--Boston
8.0%--Dallas
7.6%--Philadelphia
6.6%--Tampa
6.3%--Minneapolis
6.3%--Houston
3.9%--San Antonio

If you consider the West Coast (and Denver) as outliers and remove them from the picture, it provides an interesting different angle. NYC, despite its built form and public charging infrastructure challenges, actually has relatively high EV uptake, not only relative to its traditionally urban counterparts (aside from DC), but also to sunbelt-y cities where you would've expected there to be higher EV uptake (Atlanta, Miami, Dallas, etc). It's also not that far behind Austin and Phoenix. All these metros have lots of autocentric suburbs with homes with private garages, sprawly strip malls with plenty of room for charging stations, long commutes, little alternative transportation options, etc which you would think would bode well for high EV uptake, yet they're not that far ahead of, and in many cases, behind NYC, which inherently faces more unmodifiable challenges.

[dimondpark]

Some 2023 registrations by Metro Area

Rivian R1S($74,900-$83,000)
Los Angeles 2,556
San Francisco 1,516
San Diego 777
San Jose 674
Sacramento 401
Riverside 315

Lucid Air($69,900-$249,000)
Los Angeles 325
San Francisco 275
San Jose 154
San Diego 49
Sacramento 46
Riverside 24

Ford Mustang Mach-E($39,995-$53,995)
Los Angeles 4,693
San Francisco 1,603
San Diego 1,395
Riverside 970
San Jose 790
Sacramento 468

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by homebucket

If you consider the West Coast (and Denver) as outliers and remove them from the picture, it provides an interesting different angle. NYC, despite its built form and public charging infrastructure challenges, actually has relatively high EV uptake, not only relative to its traditionally urban counterparts (aside from DC), but also to sunbelt-y cities where you would've expected there to be higher EV uptake (Atlanta, Miami, Dallas, etc). It's also not that far behind Austin and Phoenix. All these metros have lots of autocentric suburbs with homes with private garages, sprawly strip malls with plenty of room for charging stations, long commutes, little alternative transportation options, etc which you would think would bode well for high EV uptake, yet they're not that far ahead of, and in many cases, behind NYC, which inherently faces more unmodifiable challenges.

Bc it's metro area. NYC metro definitely has the lowest share of attached garages of any U.S. metro (even many older suburbs have SFH with no garages or just one-car detached garage), but due to sheer size still has millions of people living in SFH with attached garages.

Also, NYC metro car preferences lean more West Coasty than typical American. DC too. Most vehicles are European or Japanese, sedans are still common, giant SUVs somewhat less common. You see a lot more Accords than Yukons. F-150s are work vehicles, not exurban dude vehicles. Also large Asian population. So it makes sense that EVs have somewhat higher uptake.

Urban areas will eventually adapt. It will work somehow.