2022 Best Global Universities by City

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Not true. Princeton is a short, direct train ride from Manhattan. There is no direct train from Princeton to Philly. That would be a difficult commute.

Princeton is actually the busiest suburban station in the NJ transit system. And the Princeton Dinky, the train directly to campus, is timed to trains arriving from NYC. It's a huge commuter town. One of my colleagues teaches at Princeton and lives near Union Square in Manhattan.

Granted, it would be pretty easily to live in the parts of Philly MSA and commute to parts of the NY MSA, and vice-versa. So a Princeton professor could live in, say, Bucks County, PA and easily get to work. But from Center City, or the Main Line, it would be quite difficult. And by transit, almost impossible.

There is a 35min train ride from Center City to PCJ on Amtrak. Used to have better frequency pre-COVID. And when you say "short and direct" from Princeton to Manhattan - it's a full hour, even on Amtrak or NJT expresses.

Train aside, I know a quite a few people who live in Fishtown and work in Pharma up there and simply drive - it's about 40min or so w/out crazy traffic and comparable to a commute from CC out to King of Prussia. Philly suburbs like Yardley are just across the river.

Geographically, it's closer to Philly and it's in the Philly media market which, to me, is a more culturally relevant barometer in 2021 than old-fashioned commuting pattern MSA models especially post-COVID. There are more Eagles flags than Giants flags. Just pointing out that's it not quite as black and white; and another example of power of the NYC vortex as it relates to Philly.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Not true. Princeton is a short, direct train ride from Manhattan. There is no direct train from Princeton to Philly. That would be a difficult commute.

Princeton is actually the busiest suburban station in the NJ transit system. And the Princeton Dinky, the train directly to campus, is timed to trains arriving from NYC. It's a huge commuter town. One of my colleagues teaches at Princeton and lives near Union Square in Manhattan.

Granted, it would be pretty easily to live in the parts of Philly MSA and commute to parts of the NY MSA, and vice-versa. So a Princeton professor could live in, say, Bucks County, PA and easily get to work. But from Center City, or the Main Line, it would be quite difficult. And by transit, almost impossible.

Lol whut?

MetroPark is busier than Princeton Junction.

And, it's not a "one seat" ride from Princeton to NYC. You yourself just acknowledged you first have to take the dinky. It's a 2 seat ride.

Amtrak trains from Philly stop in Princeton Junction also. And TONS of people from Philadelphia and Bucks County work in Mercer County. Have you ever seen the traffic on the Scudder Falls and Rt 1 bridges in the morning inbound to NJ from PA? Or into PA from NJ during the PM rush. It's bumper to bumper for miles.

Let's put it this way. It's so imbalanced. An unknowing Chris Christie (who is from North Jersey and was ignorant to this dynamic in the Bucks Mercer area) once got stuck in rush hour traffic going into PA from NJ during the PM rush at night after moving to Princeton to be Governmor. As previously stated, it was bumper to bumper for miles going into PA. No accident. Just normal. There was nary a trickle of traffic going in the opposite direction. It made him so angry he proposed eliminating income tax reciprocity between PA and NJ. (We pay where we live, not where we work).

Anyways. You also clearly don't understand that most people who work (or live, for that matter) in "Princeton" don't actually work in Princeton. They work in the hundreds of anonymous office buildings peppered along the Rt 1 and 295 corridors. None of them are exactly walkable from any of the train stations in the area and nearly everyone gets to work by car. And to the train station by car.

Unless you work at Princeton University itself, you are driving to work and/or the train.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Lol whut?

MetroPark is busier than Princeton Junction.

And, it's not a "one seat" ride from Princeton to NYC. You yourself just acknowledged you first have to take the dinky. It's a 2 seat ride.

Amtrak trains from Philly stop in Princeton Junction also. And TONS of people from Philadelphia and Bucks County work in Mercer County. Have you ever seen the traffic on the Scudder Falls and Rt 1 bridges in the morning inbound to NJ from PA? Or into PA from NJ during the PM rush. It's bumper to bumper for miles.

Let's put it this way. It's so imbalanced. An unknowing Chris Christie (who is from North Jersey and was ignorant to this dynamic in the Bucks Mercer area) once got stuck in rush hour traffic going into PA from NJ during the PM rush at night after moving to Princeton to be Governmor. As previously stated, it was bumper to bumper for miles going into PA. No accident. Just normal. There was nary a trickle of traffic going in the opposite direction. It made him so angry he proposed eliminating income tax reciprocity between PA and NJ. (We pay where we live, not where we work).

Anyways. You also clearly don't understand that most people who work (or live, for that matter) in "Princeton" don't actually work in Princeton. They work in the hundreds of anonymous office buildings peppered along the Rt 1 and 295 corridors. None of them are exactly walkable from any of the train stations in the area and nearly everyone gets to work by car. And to the train station by car.

Unless you work at Princeton University itself, you are driving to work and/or the train.

He obviously means that it's a one seat ride from NYP to Princeton Junction, but it's a two seat ride on SEPTA from 30th Street to Princeton Junction due to having to switch from SEPTA to NJ Transit at Trenton. I don't think anyone uses Amtrak for commuting to Princeton Junction. Apparently only two Amtrak trains stop there per day, so it would be very inconvenient.

[Crawford]

Right. Putting aside the extreme cost, Amtrak barely stops at Princeton Junction, so that would be a highly unlikely commute. Someone commuting by rail from the Philly MSA would need to transfer at Trenton, and the Septa trains aren't as frequent as the NJT trains, and aren't coordinated, so it wouldn't be a simple commute. It would be a three train commute to Princeton campus.

But yeah, someone in Bucks County, or in NE Philly, could do the commute without much trouble. But probably more likely by car. Train would be possible, just somewhat convoluted.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

He obviously means that it's a one seat ride from NYP to Princeton Junction, but it's a two seat ride on SEPTA from 30th Street to Princeton Junction due to having to switch from SEPTA to NJ Transit at Trenton. I don't think anyone uses Amtrak for commuting to Princeton Junction. Apparently only two Amtrak trains stop there per day, so it would be very inconvenient.

For that matter, I doubt many people are commuting FROM NYC to Princeton on train. The errant Princeton professor and that's it.

So what's the point?

There are far more people commuting to Princeton from Philadelphia and Bucks County than are commuting from NYC to Princeton, via any means of transportation. I would say the delta between the two is in the thousands if not tens of thousands.

The payroll of any large company in the Princeton (esp on the southern end of "Princeton", i.e. lower Rt 1, 206, and 295) area likely has 30-40% of its staff living in PA and maybe 1-2% living in NY. If that.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

For that matter, I doubt many people are commuting FROM NYC to Princeton on train. The errant Princeton professor and that's it.

So what's the point?

There are far more people commuting to Princeton from Philadelphia and Bucks County than are commuting from NYC to Princeton, via any means of transportation. I would say the delta between the two is in the thousands if not tens of thousands.

The payroll of any large company in the Princeton (esp on the southern end of "Princeton", i.e. lower Rt 1 and 295) area likely has 30-40% of its staff living in PA and maybe 1-2% living in NY. If that.

I doubt a ton of people who work at Princeton commute from Philadelphia either. The bottom line is that most of the people that work at Princeton live in the New York metro area.

[Crawford]

It's actually simpler than that. Princeton is in the NY metro, and isn't in the Philly metro. So all the conversation about train connections or easier commute or who travels when and where is superfluous.

But of course that's different than saying Princeton is a NY school. It obviously historically isn't anything like that, and isn't marketed like that. It's nothing like a Columbia or NYU. (or Penn, for Philly). But that's a different conversation. University of Michigan doesn't cease being a Metro Detroit school even if isn't marketed with Motown cliches.

Universities in urban cores, with long histories of town-gown relations, are obviously intrinsically linked to their host cities. Columbia University is officially named Columbia University in the City of New York. That's super-intentional. It's no coincidence that Columbia struggled right when NYC struggled, and rose right when NYC rose.

[Steely Dan]

it sounds like the real bottom line is that the tweener zone in NJ between the NYC and philly metro areas gets pulled in two directions, unsurprisingly.

trying to "prove" that princeton university is definitively only in one realm, and not the other, seems to be a bit of a fool's errand.

and while princeton is certainly within the orbits of both NYC and philly, students who go there are not having the same "big city" college experience that students at columbia or UPenn are.

not that that's a bad thing or anything, but it is a fundamentally different college experience than living in the big city 24-7.

[Crawford]

Harvard is an interesting case in that it's obviously very old, urban and core-adjacent, yet isn't at all marketed as a Boston school. It's very deliberately a Cambridge school, and the overt Boston connections are weak, even though parts of the campus are practically walking distance to downtown Boston.

Maybe Harvard is a unique case bc historically Cambridge was quite distinct, and Harvard carries so much cultural weight that it occupies its own sphere. Students rarely head downtown and generally stay around Harvard Square, or head into adjacent Somerville.

Boston University, on the other hand, is all Boston, all the time. It's more like Columbia, NYU and Penn, pushing the town-gown synergy.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yes, it's a Philadelphia area school, but it is more aligned with New York. If you have to choose which metro area to bucket it into, it is obviously New York.

The "who own's Princeton?" debate is a perfect example of the fact that the dividing line between NYC area and Philadelphia area is completely arbitrary.

Claiming that a locale in the Philadelphia area is more aligned with New York illustrates this perfectly. And I'm not disputing that Princeton is more "aligned" with NYC. But think about it, how often can you claim this about a place?

Maybe we don't have to choose which metro Princeton gets bucketed into... maybe because we can't... maybe because Jersey is its own thing and also a part of both... and maybe because all three are part of a single whole.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Harvard is an interesting case in that it's obviously very old, urban and core-adjacent, yet isn't at all marketed as a Boston school. It's very deliberately a Cambridge school, and the overt Boston connections are weak, even though parts of the campus are practically walking distance to downtown Boston.

Maybe Harvard is a unique case bc historically Cambridge was quite distinct, and Harvard carries so much cultural weight that it occupies its own sphere. Students rarely head downtown and generally stay around Harvard Square, or head into adjacent Somerville.

Boston University, on the other hand, is all Boston, all the time. It's more like Columbia, NYU and Penn, pushing the town-gown synergy.

A bit tangential... Well, I guess we've long crossed into tangential discussion... but I'd argue that Columbia was not intended to be an urban school, either. It was probably meant to be something more like Harvard, but the city grew up around it. Even today, Columbia's main campus feels pretty segregated from the city around it. It's the polar opposite of NYU's relationship with Greenwich Village. Columbia's recent expansions are deliberately less closed off, though.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The bottom line is that most of the people that work at Princeton live in the New York metro area.

But one thing that is very clear about all of this is that the New York metro area, as it is delineated in New Jersey, is very unclear. So I don't see how the single parameter of where Princeton employees reside within imaginary boundaries constitutes "the bottom line".

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I doubt a ton of people who work at Princeton commute from Philadelphia either. The bottom line is that most of the people that work at Princeton live in the New York metro area.

Lol. Okay. You live where?

Mind you, it was only in the last few census cycles that Mercer County moved into the New York MSA.

Anyways. My original point stands. Almost nobody from NY commutes to Princeton for work.

10s of thousands of people from PA commute there every single day.

I know 20 people minimum who commute to Princeton from Philly. Anyways, if you're one of those big huge campuses in the Princeton area (J&J, Jansen, ECS, Bristol Myers, Sarnoff, Firmeninch, etc) and you are young and want to live in an urban environment, your only real option is to live in Philadelphia. The only way you can really do it regularly is with a car and owning a car to commute to Princeton from NY with it's incumbent $30+ in tolls per day is a virtual non-starter.

I did the Philly to Princeton commute for 10 years, so I speak from experience.

Have a good one!

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

A bit tangential... Well, I guess we've long crossed into tangential discussion... but I'd argue that Columbia was not intended to be an urban school, either. It was probably meant to be something more like Harvard, but the city grew up around it. Even today, Columbia's main campus feels pretty segregated from the city around it. It's the polar opposite of NYU's relationship with Greenwich Village. Columbia's recent expansions are deliberately less closed off, though.

Yeah, this makes sense. I'd bet that historically, Columbia wasn't marketed as a NYC school, and was more analogous to a cloistered environment, as with Harvard. The official name of the school only changed a few years ago, from "Columbia University" to "Columbia University in the City of New York" as the city's reputation rose, particularly among younger, educated folks.

There was a big trend in higher education where, for many decades, urban institutions were losing favor relative to suburban/small town campuses. America was unique in the world where people thought universities belonged in small university towns. So Columbia was especially affected.

But since the 1990's, urban institutions have seen applications explode relative to non-urban institutions, so again, Columbia has been particularly affected, and is deliberately highlighting the town-gown relationship.

It's gotten to the point where non-urban institutions are pivoting to become urban or hybrid institutions. I attended Cornell undergrad, and Cornell leadership perceives that its isolated Ithaca location has hamstrung some of its growth relative to peer institutions.

By 2029, Cornell plans to be a fully hybrid Ithaca-NYC campus, where the full array of undergraduate programs are available in both locations. There's a just-announced $5 billion funding campaign that seeks to forward this rethinking of the institution. Cornell has always had a big NYC presence, with a number of graduate schools, some undergraduate programs, and more recently, the Cornell Tech campus, but this plan is to essentially create two locations for the same institution.

[3rd&Brown]

I found some statistics from a 10 year old study from the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission on commuting patterns in this region.

4.57% of Mercer County residents work in PA
4.68% of Mercer County residents work in states "other than" NJ or PA (presumably NY).
So arguably, there is an almost exact even "pull" in terms of commuting patterns.

9.34% of Bucks County residents work in Central and North Jersey (mostly Mercer and Middlesex Counties)

0.62% of Philadelphia residents work in Central and North Jersey (mostly Mercer, Hunterdon, and Middlesex Counties).

[JManc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

The "who own's Princeton?"

Do you have to ask? It's Jersey...

[Crawford]

OK, those guys do NOT look like the Princeton crowd, LOL.

Princeton, historically, was stereotyped as the most WASPy blueblood conservative traditionalist Ivy. Even today, the eating/social clubs are quite a throwback.

Yale was considered lefty, artsy and gay, Princeton had the Wall Street-bound jocks with names like Chip, Randolph and Preston.

Of course, nowadays, the student bodies are basically the same at all the most elite schools (excepting maybe MIT and Caltech).

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Of course, nowadays, the student bodies are basically the same at all the most elite schools (excepting maybe MIT and Caltech).

Is MIT also loaded with nerdy Asians and whites? That's how Caltech is. They're all at the boba and tea places in Pasadena.

Caltech enrollment statistics: https://www.registrar.caltech.edu/re...ent-statistics

[Crawford]

I went to grad school down the street from MIT, and we had some MIT students in certain classes, and they didn't seem particularly different from other students. They were smart, of course.

But I'd guess MIT and Caltech are more techie and "nerdy", and probably a bit more male, than peer institutions? Maybe Caltech moreso, bc it's so small and hyper-specialized? MIT has some liberal artsy programs.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I went to grad school down the street from MIT, and we had some MIT students in certain classes, and they didn't seem particularly different from other students. They were smart, of course.

But I'd guess MIT and Caltech are more techie and "nerdy", and probably a bit more male, than peer institutions? Maybe Caltech moreso, bc it's so small and hyper-specialized? MIT has some liberal artsy programs.

MIT sounds like Carnegie Mellon. Very techie-nerdy, but also artsy-nerdy, given the drama and graphic arts programs.