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Originally Posted by Groundhog
I'm going to do my best to stay on topic here, because there's a lot of back and forth that's getting way off topic. Not sure what the history of the NHL or Amazon, Sunoco, Miami, or Liberty Place have to do with this.
No, this is the part you wish to ignore because it counters everything you say. It comes down to the financials. The financials are the reason they are leaving the WFC. The financials are the reason they are looking at a differentiated location. It doesn’t take an MBA to understand this. They’re not going to cannibalize the WFC by building a competing arena right next door. That's bad business.
And yes, the complex was built at a very different time, with very different urban priorities than we have today.
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I get that the financial reality of the 76ers aren't the best right now due to Snider selling the 76ers to Harris over a decade ago. I don't care about whether he wants another arena (even though I don't agree with separating the Flyers and 76ers, but that's personal as well as sentimental), my only concern is the location of the proposed arena.
Yes, the Sports Complex was conceived in the 1960's, and it was a modern marvel during that time. There have been a lot of things that have been conceived up from the 60's, some which have benefitted society (civil rights, space age and computer technology, music, etc.), and others which haven't captivated the imagination of a lot of people (architecture), but I'm thinking that with the exception of the Eagles, who desperately need the space to handle over 60K spectators, that if the 76ers do get their downtown arena, then the Phillies should follow suit and move probably to Broad and Vine, and the 76ers, once the WFC goes out of style, move to 8th and Market and get their own ice rink, according to your own logic???
The Sports Complex was designed to handle large amounts of spectators who aren't just going to go the the games, but those who want to hang out outside of the stadiums and arenas just to capture the energy of just being near a sporting event.
I can also understand why the Sports Complex was also designed: some people just aren't interested in sports like that and other are very lukewarm about contact sports like football and hockey, namely, the arts and gallery crowd. Also, some people don't want to live next to an arena, let alone, hear the roars, the cheers, and the boos that come out of those stadiums. And lets not forget the drunks and yahoos that come out during every game doing whatever. It's bad enough we're known for fans that eat horse crap after every championship (I know, that happened in Center City).
Finally, even though I've avowed never the return to the city for living purposes, I still believe that there should be something for everybody, which is why we have Center city for shopping, business, government, and the arts, the Sports Complex for sporting events, and even Airport/Cargo City, for air travel.
If the city wants to build the 76ers arena, I say why not? I don't control the city, I just so happen to have lived there, and still support the Philly sports teams, which is the only worthy thing I can support about Philadelphia at this point.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
And I believe the traffic issues you claim a Center City arena will cause will be relieved by public transit. I have not seen anything to state otherwise other than vague beliefs. While Pattison/the BSL is quasi-sufficient for the complex, the options at Market East are a vast improvement over that. The fact that it is a terminal is one of the issues, because people can only arrive from one direction. If the BSL can send 6 cars south to the stadiums, the MSL can send 6 cars east and 6 cars west simultaneously (6+6=12 and 12>6). Add the regional rail and trolleys too if you’d like, but that baseline of subway traffic alone tells you all you need. If you continue to struggle with the math, I can have my 7 year old explain it to you.
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Pattison Ave station was specifically designed to handle the very large amount of passengers that want to utilize the BSL to and from the games. If SEPTA wants to extend the BSL further south to the Navy Yard and as far away as Chester, it's possible, but it never happened.
Also, 8th and 11th Sts have narrow platforms in comparison to Pattison Ave. Eighth St is it's own subway station, while 11th St is connected to 13th and the City Hall Complex. Both subway stations have a crosswalk connecting the eastbound and westbound platforms, but it's not a free interchange, unlike 161th St at Yankee Station, Shea Stadium, Addison for Wrigley and 35th-Sox for Chicago, and Kenmore at Fenway Park.
And if you're willing towards making improvements to 8th and 11th Its, that's going to cost another billion and it's not going to be Harris that will pay for that, but the taxpayers of Philadelphia and Pennsylvania, just to maybe widen the platforms, add more track, and other associated work to make those stations more accessible and more appealing to the prospective stations. I'm thinking that you haven't even considered that and thought 11th St was going to stay the same design and configuration.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
It isn’t and nobody is saying it will make it a “model of mass transit”, again, please stop with the strawman arguments.
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SEPTA never was the "model of mass transit", the honor goes to the MTA in NY, Metro in DC, and to a certain extent, BART, out of the Bay Area. It's a glorified bus agency which has ran the rail (subway and commuter) divisions into the ground. Makes me wish the PRR, the Reading, and the Seashore Lines was still running to this day!
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Again, enough with the strawman arguments! NOBODY SAID THIS!!!!
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The arena won't revitalize all of Philadelphia nor will it make it a even wealthier city than it already is. Ask Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, and St Louis how they're doing with their newly built arenas and whether it has revitalized their cities overall.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, but this has already been covered. We’re talking about an urban downtown arena. If you think that the WFC is that, then I suggest you refamiliarize yourself with the city. Maybe in a sprawling sunbelt city you could squint and see the WFC as a connected part of downtown, but not in the Northeast my friend.
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The Sports Complex has absolutely nothing to do with the Sunbelt, in fact, AT&T and the Ball Park at Arlington, TX is pretty sprawl, as is the DFW Metroplex. The Sports Complex was Philadelphia's answer to combining all the major sports teams in one confined area as opposed to spreading them in different parts of the city.
You're reaching for a lot of exaggerations, my friend!!! The Sports Complex, when it comes to other sports complexes and sports facilities, is arguable as urban due to the fact of combining different sports venues in one area of the city. It was never intended to mimic the Sunbelt, when every venue is spread out in different parts of the city. Fans are lucky to attend a baseball or football game in the daytime and if they wish, attend a basketball and hockey game in the evening, and vice versa, w/o having to travel to a different part of the city just to do so.
But according to you, the Sports Complex is very outdated and we need to shoehorn multiple sports venues inside Center City just so you can make it 10-30 minutes just so your family doesn't have to have more temper tantrums. I get it now, it's not about the rest of the city and the suburbanites but people who live in CC or who live close enough to CC who don't want to go through South Phila and deal with the hordes of people, car lots, warehouses, and refineries that occupy that part of the city.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Your assumptions are all wrong. I very much care about the diversity of the city. Maybe you struggle with reading comprehension or just don’t care to fully digest what other people say, but I have stated MULTIPLE TIMES that I’m sad they’re leaving the WFC. I don’t want a Market East arena for “self-centered” easier commute. I want it because it is one of the better options after considering the FACTS and accepting that they will be leaving South Philly. One of the things that makes it a better location than many alternatives? Easier public transit access in EVERY direction. Yes, that includes West Philly. It also includes the Northeast (at least parts with MFL access), Northwest, and the suburbs due to regional rail connectivity. It does not greatly impact BSL riders either.
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If what is said about DC Chinatown is true, then I don't want the arena in Chinatown, Midtown Village, Washington Square, or even close by Old City. The bolded quote seems very hypocritical of you that you claim to care, but there are people that are very concerned about not just the people, but what they'll lose in the effect if this were to happen.
I don't feel comfortable with having to force either an ethnic enclave not even a neighborhood to move just because the residents can't either afford the escalating rent nor the taxes. Philadelphia already has too many problems as it is with the school system, the homelessness, gentrification, drugs, and the violent crime.
An arena nearby may alleviate the immediate area with 24 hr security and a police presence, but it's not going to solve all of Philly's problems and with having two arenas in Philadelphia, which arena will people go to for concerts? It's a chicken and egg question, and I'm assuming that if you're a suburbanite from PA, NJ, or DE, which is a whole lot more than city folk, they'll travel by car to WFC, where there's easy parking.
It has more to do with were we live, not what we want Philadelphia to become or what we wish Philadelphia was. I'd love for Philly to be the go to city like NY, Boston, Miami, Chicago, and SF, but there's much more problems than just figuring out whether an new arena in CC should be the primary concern or building a new Greyhound terminal, in which the current one is sorely inadequate and the buses have absolutely no business being parked and idled along Market St whatsoever. I'll choose the latter since not having a decent Greyhound bus terminal is inconveniencing the city in a huge way, with a lot of late buses, no shelter, no waiting area, and definitely no bathrooms!!
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Your framing this as an argument between preservation of ethnic enclaves vs better public transit connections is wrong (hey, look, another wrong assumption!). I don’t believe the arena will impact Chinatown negatively. Nothing you or anyone else against it has said anything that makes me think it might. The myth that arenas lead to gentrification has been debunked and when you tried to bring up DC as an example, it was quickly shot down with actual facts and history. My believes will change when I see persuasive data that tell me otherwise. That hasn’t happened here.
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You not believing is your right, but it also makes you seem very parochial at the same time. An arena may not necessarily gentrify, and if having sporting venues did gentrify or were the basis of gentrification like having a Starbucks in your neighborhood, then South Philly along Oregon Ave would be nothing more than art galleries, cafes, lofts, and Whole Foods.
I'm also not a fan of South Philly's gentrification south of Washington, but that's a different story, as I do miss the old Italian community that's gradually disappearing and being replaced by gentrifiers. I don't really mind Point Breeze and Grays Ferry being fixed up because that area has taken a beating, but the rest of South Philly should've been an ethnic threshold as opposed to the newer shops, which I don't really patronize. That's just me!
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Also, referring to the Gayborhood as “Midtown Village,” while stating that you’re worried about losing a minority community enclave at the expense of millionaires is a bit out of touch. Who do you think came up with that nomenclature? Do you think the longer term LGTBQ+ residents appreciate the forced rebranding? (fun fact – they don’t!). It is language used to try and make the area more desirable to outside investment. They type of investment you claim to be against.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
You believe that an arena will hurt Chinatown and “Midtown Village” (actually known as the Gayborhood). I disagree because logic and the fact that these arenas have never destroyed neighborhoods or led to gentrification.
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Midtown Village has been the name that's been used for the area around Lombard, Juniper, Chestnut, and 11th Sts as far back as I remember the city. I used to patronize a diner called the Midtown II on 11th and Sansom before the owners closed and sold the property. Still pretty cool with the owners kids to this day.
I never really heard of it being called the Gayborhood by other people and if it is, then it's by people who are basically LGBT. Saying Midtown Village doesn't make me homophobic nor do I intend to be homophobic by using that term, as it was meant to identify a specific area and not meant to insult nor to inflict any harm.
And albeit Midtown Village (or Gayborhood) is the main gay area in Philly, there are also a lot of straight people that either live or patronize the businesses that occupy that area, myself included, that will also be affected by escalating rents and other associated costs if the CC arena were to be erected. I believe that you've gotten yourself into a bind.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
I’m not 100% sure, but with the amount of focus and pressure on him, as with the PR front they’re putting on, I am optimistic that it will happen. You are not 100% sure they won’t either. This is something that we shall see, but the studies being done will likely make recommendations that will lead to this.
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I'm not sure whether Harris will follow up with an apartment tower like he proposed, neither. There have been a lot of projects that have been proposed, only for them to be downscaled like the Camden waterfront project, incomplete like Waterfront Square, or have just never come into fruition. I've learned that while living in Philly and won't be surprised that the apartment tower won't get built.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
I did, appreciate the reminder. I'm so spoiled living right next to the sports complex in WEST Philly.
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Exactly, you live right next to Franklin Field and the Palestra, in University City, which means that you would be approximately 10-15 min away from the proposed arena. According to Google Maps (
https://www.google.com/maps/search/c...l=en&entry=ttu), it takes 45 min from where you're probably at to the Sports Complex on a good day, w/o any stoppage or delays from SEPTA, but you said it should take 30 min from where you're at to CBP, which is highly ludicrous of you, considering that the world does revolve around you.
Not saying that you shouldn't care about your family, as we all care about ours, but that's how long it takes to get to CBP from UC if you're going to take SEPTA, not 30 minutes like you previously said posts ago. Get out of the clouds, already!
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
It's a good thing none of Philly’s stadiums are as poorly connected to the community as the Meadowlands (although you said there were two ways to get there and immediately listed three, so that's nice). I’m sorry you had to deal with that, it sounds miserable. That is not a goal to strive for. Philly can (and does) do better.
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One paragraph, you're talking about the Sunbelt, now, you're admitting that the Sports Complex is integrated with the city? WHAT IS IT! BTW, the Meadowlands is much harder to navigate by car, as I should know as a former rideshare driver.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
All that said, and we're mixing sports here, but you started that, so I'm just running with it. What if the Meadowlands was at MSG? Your trip would be over in 45min! Substantially less than 2 hours. Do you see the parallel?
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True, but NYC doesn't have enough space nor does it have any vital infrastructure to support such a complex as the Meadowland, with a football stadium, an arena, a horse track, and I believe a mega shopping mall, if I'm not mistaken. The Meadowlands might as well be it's own separate city.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Also, not everyone has the privilege of going to these events live, and even fewer have the privilege of wasting 2-4 hours commuting to games. You want to exclude people by putting up more barriers to access? The Meadowlands sounds like a great example of how to do that.
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The Giants played in Yankee Stadium from 1956 to 1973, and before that, the Polo Grounds from the inaugural year, 1925 to 1955. The G-men played in the Yale Bowl in New Haven in 1973-74, and have even played at Shea Stadium in 1975 before moving to the swap in 1976.
The reason? I believe it had a lot to do with the declining economy of NY, as well as crime, perception of the city, and the city's fiscal state at the time which hastened their departure from NY to NJ. Plus, it made a lot of sense to build a football stadium on cheap land as opposed to building one in the city and trying to come up with a 80K capacity arena in the middle of Manhattan would've been a dream, but it also would've been impossible due to the city's conditions during the 1970's.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
The best sporting event I’ve ever been to was the 6 OT Syracuse-UCONN Big East Tournament game in MSG. I was working in the Bellevue and was offered tickets the day of. I left work at 5p, jumped on the R7 to Trenton, transferred, and made it to the game in 2 hours. I wouldn’t have been able to attend the greatest basketball game I’ll likely ever see if MSG wasn’t so well connected to public transit (just like the 6ers proposal is). So yes, I can see it taking 2 hours to get to a game in NYC from Philly, but to need to go to a game in your own city and have it take that long is ridiculous and exclusionary.
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It's easier to get to MSG by train (subway and commuter) as opposed to driving. Also, even people who live in the city are going to have issues with mass transit, so it makes a lot of sense to plan ahead as opposed to thinking that mass transit will swiftly take you from your house to the arena in 30 min or less, and knowing NY, with a lot of delays and accidents, there's no perfect way to get to a destination. If you can't plan ahead, I can't feel sorry for you but your kids only. Once again, plan ahead before game time.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
I’d rather trust SEPTA than traffic on 76, 676, or 95.
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I wouldn't trust SEPTA with transit projects, extensions, or even a bucket of horse crap!
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
In the end it seems that we both like the idea of the 6ers staying in the sports complex, but I’ve accepted the financial reality that Harris, or any other owner, would not build a new arena next door to a competitor and would instead look to differentiate in some way (i.e. location). You are fighting this.
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I accept the reality since Snider was unwilling to keep the team at Comcast Spectacor, and don't fault Harris for this, but the impending move fro the Sports Complex to Center City is unnecessarily. There's not even an alternate site other than CC which could've been proposed and this is what sours me about pro sports nowadays, it's all about who has the biggest pockets, not the best ideas.
A separate basketball arena isn't even the issue, it's the location, and it's one thing to build a basketball arena, but to compete with the WFC for concerts and other shows, isn't really a concern for me, as the main issue is building this basketball arena, not competing with WFC for concerts.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
You prioritize cars, don’t trust SEPTA, but see the BSL as fine and counterbalanced by multiple highway access points. I see greater connectively of public transit as a key benefit and something that will reduce the reliance on cars. I see commute time to a venue as important, you don’t.
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I've wished that SEPTA was at the same level as the MTA in NY, the MBTA of Boston, the CTA/Metra in Chicago, Metro in DC, and BART of the Bay Area, but it's always been a letdown when it comes to commuter rail and the subway. We have a decent subway, but it could've been bigger.
And I never prioritized the automobile, I stated that suburbanites from PA, NJ, and DE who want to travel are going to have it easier traveling to the Sports Complex via I-76 and I-95 while Philadelphians will be more than likely to use the BSL to Pattison.
I'd love to see more people use subways or commuter rail, but unfortunately, that's not how much of America operates, and let's be realistic, SEPTA doesn't even extend all the way to Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, Reading, Lancaster, or even West Chester, Oxford, Newtown, or all the way to the Jersey Shore, where there are a lot more Philly sports fans living than in the city of Philadelphia itself, which is a fact of life!
It's basically a crapshoot to think that suburbanites will either leave their cars at home or ditch them in favor of mass transit, and the regional rail system doesn't even cover the far flung regional cities such as Allentown, Reading, Lancaster, and West Chester, so how is SEPTA going to greatly improve by building the arena.
SEPTA has also recently cancelled an extension to KOP, which I'm not surprised. It would've been nice to extend the Route 100 to KOP, and the proposals looked neat, but as I predicted, SEPTA doesn't even want to extend a line to the most lucrative retail corridor of KOP, and if SEPTA can't extend to KOP, what makes you think they'll improve any type of service anywhere?
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
I’m not sure we will see eye to eye on this, but at the end of the day the 6ers are going somewhere, I’m sorry you can’t see any silver linings to the breakup of the big 4 sports in South Philly. My main point in all this is that if they have to move out of the complex, Market East is one of the best possible outcomes. Hopefully they stick the landing right and build a world class arena and Harris and Co, do the right thing and pay for all the improvements needed along the way. I hope it rejuvenates Market Street, and allows Chinatown thrive.
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I take it that since Harris is from DC, and I'm pretty sure that he knows about the Verizon Center and it's history, that I doubt that it will revitalize Philadelphia and make Chinatown thrive. He might as well either swap the 76ers with some other team (Wizards) since he wants a Chinatown arena that's also in the middle of an American downtown.