Saint John and St. John's... Confusing?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

And there's a St. Johns, AZ too; without the apostrophe. Indeed, old St. John was indeed a popular guy.

There's a grand total of nine completely separate Saint-Johns in Quebec at this time (there were more, but some were merged into neighboring cities, so they're only neighborhoods nowadays, not independent cities).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

English is alive and well in Montreal, don't worry about that.

And be careful with personal info about MolsonEx it's a top-secret topic.

I didn't say anything that isn't already broadly known in SSP.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Have never heard of anyone confusing Kamloops with Kelowna. Since you are confused by Saint John vs. St. John's, are you sure you are in the right place? Perhaps you should be in St. John's!

They're super easy to mix up, "you know, that midsized city in the BC interior that has a weird mid-length (7-8 characters in length) Native-sounding name starting in K" could designate either.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

They're super easy to mix up, "you know, that midsized city in the BC interior that has a weird mid-length (7-8 characters in length) Native-sounding name starting in K" could designate either.

I am a huge geography nerd but admit to mixing them up often.

Off the top of my head:

Kelowna is the bigger of the two, and considered more desirable by most people.

Kamloops is the one that is closer to Vancouver. Kelowna is further east.

Now I'll go check if I'm right!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am a huge geography nerd but admit to mixing them up often.

Off the top of my head:

Kelowna is the bigger of the two, and considered more desirable by most people.

Kamloops is the one that is closer to Vancouver. Kelowna is further east.

Now I'll go check if I'm right!

I agree. I'm a geography nerd too, and, although I know the difference between the two cities, I have never been to either one, and, if the topic of one of these two cities ever comes up, I will find myself, for a split second, doing a quick mental reference jus to reassure myself of which one is which.

Kelowna is larger, more trendy, located right on Lake Okanagan, and has surrounding orchards and vineyards. It is actually closer to Vancouver (more southerly), but, I think more difficult to get to. I think the Okanagan Connector is a bit more dodgy, especially in the wintertime.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am a huge geography nerd but admit to mixing them up often.

Off the top of my head:

Kelowna is the bigger of the two, and considered more desirable by most people.

Kamloops is the one that is closer to Vancouver. Kelowna is further east.

Now I'll go check if I'm right!

Both cities are basically the same distance from either Vancouver or Calgary. According to Google Maps (downtown to downtown); Vancouver to Kamloops is 357km; 390km to Kelowna. From Calgary, it's 605km to Kelowna and 620km to Kamloops.

Both cities have universities; TRU in Kamloops and UBCO in Kelowna. As well, Kelowna has Okanagan College. Kamloops is hotter and drier in the summer vs. Kelowna. Both cities have great golfing and skiing. Both cities have WHL teams and have a healthy rivalry.

Kamloops has a much better road system than Kelowna with the TCH being a 6 lane freeway through the city; while Kelowna has traffic clogged and light infested Harvey Ave. as its main thoroughfare. Kelowna has a much larger and better connected airport with flights to all the major cities in Western Canada, Toronto, Montreal, Whitehorse, Seattle, Phoenix, Las Vegas and Mexican destinations. All Kamloops has is flights to Vancouver, Victoria and Calgary. Shopping is better in Kelowna vs. Kamloops (people I know who live in Kamloops do take shopping trips to Kelowna; especially for back-to-school and Christmas); Kelowna is the health centre for the BC Southern Interior; and it's located in the heart of BC wine country.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I agree. I'm a geography nerd too, and, although I know the difference between the two cities, I have never been to either one

I have been to one of the two, but I'm not sure which one

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Have never heard of anyone confusing Kamloops with Kelowna. Since you are confused by Saint John vs. St. John's, are you sure you are in the right place? Perhaps you should be in St. John's!

Cut the snark. If you have a problem with my post, come to SJ and let me know

Saint John is my dad’s hometown… he was born in SJ, but grew up with his family in Montreal. My grandmother couldn’t handle the Montreal heat and humidity, let alone the ongoing FLQ crisis, so they moved back to Saint John.

I have been to St. John’s though, but it was the middle of winter. I hope to go back in the middle of summer and see it properly.

Hopefully, this thread means anytime I bring up the advantages of Saint John differentiating itself with a more distinct regional name in the event of amalgamation, or through a combined airport project with Fredericton, you’re less quick to say “there’s no Saint John-St. John’s confusion” as there’s now a whole thread of responses in addition to my own to help you understand that, in fact, there is quite a bit of confusion between the two SJ’s outside of Atlantic Canada.

Think it’s pretty clear that the name confusion is one that impacts Saint John more than St. John’s, in terms of marketing and branding challenges.

[MonctonRad]

I'm pretty sure that if you ever conducted a plebiscite in SJ over whether a name change is desirable, you would likely be distressed by the fact that it would be overwhelming defeated.

I suppose in the spirit of reconciliation, you could propose the new community name be Wolastoq City, and rename the river at the same time.

BTW, it just occurred to me that in the Maritimes, Saint John is frequently abbreviated to "SJ". I don't believe I have ever heard St. John's (NL) ever abbreviated to anything.

Maybe this could be the key differentiator........

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Cut the snark, please. If you have a problem with my post, PM me.

Of course Lloydminster is not confusing. I've been there several times, but thanks for your facetious remark.

Genuinely curious if you think it’s confusing or not, Saint John and St. John’s, that is. Based on your posts in the thread, I really have no idea what you think about the poll question in the OP, you’ve only brought up other places, including 28 instances of Montreal in one post a lone.

I have no problem with your posts, at all. Although, I do wonder what you think about the question posed in the OP, which so far, (and correct me if I’m wrong) I don’t think you have posted on.

So, do you think it confusing? Or could you at least see how people less informed about geography might think it’s confusing in the rest of Canada?

My deepest apologies for any perceived snark

[Taeolas]

I suspect that if you need to know the difference, you will generally know you need to distinguish between them. (That applies to most Maritimers and politiicans and travel agents mainly).

Otherwise, if you aren't a geography/history/cartography nerd, you are probably lucky to realize that there are cities in the Maritimes, and you may know Halifax but that would be about that.

St John's likely has a slightly bigger mindspace because Newfoundland is more distinctive on the map, and it's in a distinctive place on said island (Whereas Saint John is tucked up on a bay so easy to miss), and it is a capital city. But otherwise, unless you have business with the city, or are travelling to the cities, most people probably don't realize it could be confusing.

Unless of course you're Jim Gaffigan.

• Video Link (Around 1:49 in that video, but the entire act is great)

[lio45]

Another SignalHillHiker story that comes to mind is when he got stranded in Halifax (his St. John's connection flight got cancelled), the helpful agent on the phone from Central Canada suggested "can't a relative or friend just come pick you up?", as if the entirely of Atlantic Canada was just postage-stamp sized in her mind

(I'm sure that's a very common mistake in Western and Central Canada... that anywhere in Atlantic Canada is within a stone's throw of anywhere else)

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm pretty sure that if you ever conducted a plebiscite in SJ over whether a name change is desirable, you would likely be distressed by the fact that it would be overwhelming defeated.

I suppose in the spirit of reconciliation, you could propose the new community name be Wolastoq City, and rename the river at the same time.

BTW, it just occurred to me that in the Maritimes, Saint John is frequently abbreviated to "SJ". I don't believe I have ever heard St. John's (NL) ever abbreviated to anything.

Maybe this could be the key differentiator........

I believe St. John’s is referred to as SJ, too, but perhaps not as frequently as our SJ is.

I certainly wouldn’t be distressed, whatsoever, as I know such a plebiscite would never happen, even if a name change would be good for the city in terms of branding and marketing to lessen the confusion with St. John’s. We missed the opportunity at the turn of the century when the name was changed from St. John to Saint John.

However, in an amalgamation situation, I think a name different than Saint John for the resulting regional municipality would absolutely be the right way to go about it. Almost 50% of the Saint John CMA lives outside the city proper, and most of the residents outside the city associate a lot of very negative stereotypes with Saint John. They especially won’t want to join up if it means they’d have to be “part of Saint John”.

So not only would it make more sense to go with Wolastoq Regional Municipality, Fundy Regional Municipality, or something else different than Saint John Regional Municipality in terms of making amalgamation a less bitter pill to swallow for the outlying suburbs, it would also start to help lessen the confusion that exists between St. John’s and Saint John and their nearly identical names.

Using “Wolastoq” as the name to refer to the entire SJ+KV region could be quite an effective way to kill two birds with one stone… or three birds for that matter, since it would also be in the spirit of reconciliation by meaningfully recognizing the First Nations who were here long before Samuel de Champlain’s 1604 “discovery”. It would be a lot more meaningful than the typical land recognition statements, which imo, often aren’t much more than kabuki theatre.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by lio45

(I'm sure that's a very common mistake in Western and Central Canada... that anywhere in Atlantic Canada is within a stone's throw of anywhere else)

And that brings up a funny irony... SOMETIMES it isn't THAT far... as a crow flies. The problem is all the huge obstacles you have to drive around or ferry across.
Saint John, NB to St. John's, NL is 1,000km as the crow flies, or 1,700km via TCH. Crazily enough, the ocean part isn't even the most divergent part.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Nashe

And that brings up a funny irony... SOMETIMES it isn't THAT far... as a crow flies. The problem is all the huge obstacles you have to drive around or ferry across.

On a related note, pardon my ignorance, but why isn't there a ferry from the Maritimes straight to St. John's? The idea of having to drive across Newfoundland on a one-lane-in-each-direction road in the forest, seems stupid when you've ALREADY been on a boat for hours. Might as well just ride that boat to your final destination, no?

Thinking about it now, I suppose the answer is that there just isn't enough demand and the ferry service is a money loser that got eternally promised by Canada in the 1940s to seduce Newfoundland into joining, so of course we're going to minimize the waste by offering the cheapest service possible (that we're legally bound to) ...

[MonctonRad]

The pre-existent North Sydney-Argentia run cuts about 8-9 hours off the drive, but the crossing becomes a 12 hour one, across the stormy open North Atlantic, with all the attendant sea sickness, etc.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The pre-existent North Sydney-Argentia run cuts about 8-9 hours off the drive, but the crossing becomes a 12 hour one, across the stormy open North Atlantic, with all the attendant sea sickness, etc.

...that is if you don't get sunk by a German U-boat., which can even happen on the shorter route!

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by lio45

On a related note, pardon my ignorance, but why isn't there a ferry from the Maritimes straight to St. John's? The idea of having to drive across Newfoundland on a one-lane-in-each-direction road in the forest, seems stupid when you've ALREADY been on a boat for hours. Might as well just ride that boat to your final destination, no?

Thinking about it now, I suppose the answer is that there just isn't enough demand and the ferry service is a money loser that got eternally promised by Canada in the 1940s to seduce Newfoundland into joining, so of course we're going to minimize the waste by offering the cheapest service possible (that we're legally bound to) ...

They do have a mostly direct route. The Sydney <-> Argentia ferry basically goes to St John's. https://www.marineatlantic.ca/sailin...orth-sydney-ns


The thing to keep in mind is that Sydney to Corner Brook is ~200km, while Sydney to Argentia is ~500km. So that ferry is twice as long over icy, stormy more open seas, so the Corner Brook ferry may be a more preferred route for many because its faster and gets you back on land sooner.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nashe

...that is if you don't get sunk by a German U-boat., which can even happen on the shorter route!

Even one of the PEI ferries got torpedoed and sunk during WW2. Mind you, it was out of service, and on it's way back to PEI after refit in Halifax when this happened.

I'm sure a lot of Canadians are unaware just how much shipping was sunk off the Atlantic coast of NS, the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and even the St. Lawrence estuary during the war. The HMCS Charlottetown (corvette) was sunk off the north coast of PEI.

[craner]

^ I had no idea about sinkings during the war.

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Unless of course you're Jim Gaffigan.

• Video Link (Around 1:49 in that video, but the entire act is great)

That’s hilarious - love Jim Gaffigan.