Austin | The Republic | 710 Feet | 47 Floors | U/C

[KevinFromTexas]

They're starting construction in San Diego on their federal courthouse. It'll be 333 feet tall with 16 floors. So our new county courthouse could end up being slightly taller than that since it's 17 floors.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...26#post5132326

[BevoLJ]

Judge Dietz talked about the new courthouse a bit yesterday during the Downtown Austin Plan discussion.

You can find his part on the "Item 2 (Part 2 of 2)" just after the 30 min mark from this link... http://austintx.swagit.com/play/01192011-110/0/

Some key points he made... The first floor will be commercial and civic use. They are going to Brooklyn to look at their multi-use federal courthouse. They need 500,000 sq feet and that is excluding basic stuff like common areas, and maintenance spaces. He said "We believe this will be a downtown building who's tenet coincidentally is a courthouse." They are looking at making it open to a plaza that opens onto the park, making that plaza as something of an extension of the park. Also mentioned that they have over 300,000 visitors a year so that is a lot of people that will be going there. Much of what he said if feel fairly positive about.

[wwmiv]

Travis County Commissioners Court Judge Sam Biscoe is pushing a plan to sell half the county’s newly acquired downtown block -— the former museum site at Third and Guadalupe streets — to a private developer.

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/pr...-of-block.html

If anyone has a subscription, I'm interested in knowing the details of the rest of the article.

Three obvious outcomes of this decision:

1. Tower will be much taller due to smaller land area.
2. Tower will be even taller because of the public-private partnership that is being sought.
3. Sold parcel will probably eventually house another tower - one which might very well end up being among the tallest in downtown Austin.

[hookem]

Hmm. Seems a bit fishy that they'd buy the lot then flip half of it to a private developer so soon. Something stinks about that transaction, although I am happy about the potential for more height on that block.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by hookem

Hmm. Seems a bit fishy that they'd buy the lot then flip half of it to a private developer so soon. Something stinks about that transaction, although I am happy about the potential for more height on that block.

We have to remember that there are competing interests at play here. The County needs the land and probably wants to hold costs down by downplaying the private part of any public-private partnership, but certain people (Biscoe et al) and the City want to maximize the usage of the land by playing up the private half.

Biscoe probably realizes that selling half the land is a good compromise. Play up the ability for a private firm to develop the sold half to maximum potential while allowing the county to only use (abuse?) the partnership for financial help in building the courthouse.

IF this is the case, I wo't hold my breath for a good design. Depending on which half the county is selling and which way the lot is being split, a bad design's impact could be minimized. If the lot is being split east-west and they county is keeping the more southerly half, then that means that a condo or apartment tower (or, less desirably, office) can be built with ground level retail to play off the street and park. Without being able to read the full article, I'm going to assume that this is the case as a lot that faces the park is both more easily sold and sold at a better price for the county.

This deal is optimal.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Mopacs

Now this is an entire city block, so perhaps the county complex will take up only a portion, and reserve the remainder for future development...perhaps leasing it out to a developer?

Obviously a very prescient comment.

[KevinFromTexas]

If they plan on selling half the block, then this could end up being a huge tower. Remember they said they want 500,000 square feet. I remember reading that article a while back about a proposal to redevelop the half block where the Starr Office Building is. That proposal called for a 500,000+ square foot office tower that would have been at least 40 floors. That lot is about an acre according to the article. Those blocks that run on either side of Congress Avenue are the biggest in downtown. So the courthouse block is already smaller than that one to begin with, and now they're saying they'll only build on half of the block. This could end up being the next big tower.

I'm wondering if they're planning on having residential attached and maybe on the upper floors of the courthouse tower, or if they're planning to sell half the block and encourage a residential development on that parcel instead.

Here's that article on the Starr (comptroller building).
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...ighlight=Starr

[KevinFromTexas]

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/pr...-of-block.html

Private firm may get part of block
Half of courthouse site could be up for grabs; other sites vacated?
Austin Business Journal - by Jacob Dirr , ABJ Staff
Date: Friday, March 18, 2011, 5:00am CDT

Travis County Commissioners Court Judge Sam Biscoe is pushing a plan to sell half the county’s newly acquired downtown block -— the former museum site at Third and Guadalupe streets — to a private developer.

The county also plans to release this month an unofficial questionnaire to seek a private partner to develop the block, next to the new federal courthouse under construction, as it is tries to figure out how to finance construction.

[ATXboom]

Reference the Franklin county courthouse in Columbus OH. Sits on about a half block and is a little over 30 stories I believe.

[KevinFromTexas]

It really just depends on how small they plan on making the footprint and if they add anything on top. It doesn't necessarily have to occupy the entire half block. But, if it did, they could build 500,000 square feet into a building as short as 16 or 17 floors. Of course it would probably still end up being over 300 feet tall since most courthouses have high floor-to-floor heights.

I was looking at my Lego downtown model the other day, and was looking at my model of the Omni Hotel downtown. That building sits on a block that is the same size as the courthouse block. The Omni is one of the biggest buildings in downtown. It's bigger than the convention center and is bigger than The Austonian. It has 990,000 square feet inside of 16 floors. Since the courthouse will have about half as much space, but occupy half the block it sits on, it would still need to be 16 floors to reach 500,000 square feet. I would imagine the 500K number is probably without any additional uses since that's the amount of space they're saying the county needs. So they could end up adding another 250,000 square feet for say 8 floors of residential, and end up with another 150 feet or so of height. So it could still be a 450 foot building if they added anything above the courthouse. Plus, that block is blocked in the south and east. To the south is AMLI on 2nd which rises to 225 feet, and then to the east is the Hobby Building which is 178 feet tall. And then there's the W which is caddy corner to it and is 476 feet tall. So if the building does have residential, they'll want to go high with it, otherwise the units won't have much of a view to the south and east.

By the way, that Franklin County Courthouse in Columbus is the tallest county courthouse in the country. It's 464 feet tall.

[wwmiv]

I've been working on a rough height for the building.

I'm working on the assumption of a 3 story podium that will take up 3/4 of the lot (lot = .885 acres; 3/4 = .66375 acres) and a tower will rise above that which takes up roughly half of the lot (1/2 = .4425 acres). I'm also assuming that the plan to sell the other half of the block (1.77 acres) per ABJ/Biscoe will actually happen.

The county said it needed 500,000 square feet in pure space, not including empty space such as hallways, bathrooms, entranceways, etc. I'm assuming that 1/2 of the space on the first floor will not count towards the counties needs, 1/4 on floors 2 and 3 of the podium, and 1/10 of every floor in excess of that until the 500,000 square feet has been satisfied. I've assumed, per Kevin's posts, a floor height of 20 feet until the county's needs have been met and 16 feet on any floors in excess of that. I’m going to assume a first floor floor height of 25 feet. I’m going to assume three floors of mechanical at the top at 20’ each (to make up for mechanical usage that I've discounted in the rest of the building).

I'm going to assume that the county would prefer cohabitation with business and not housing. I will also assume that for any private investor or firm to have any financial incentive to play ball with the county they will need at least 1/3 of the building. So a total square footage assumed in this building will be 750,000, with 250,000 being allocated to private uses.


Floor one = 28,912.95 square feet; 14,456.475 allocated to county.
Floor two = 28,912.95 square feet; 19,285.3 allocated to county.
Floor three = 28,912.95 square feet; 19,285.3 allocated to county.
Total county = 53,027.075


Floors four - twenty-nine = 19,275.3 square feet per floor; 17,347.77 allocated to county per floor.
Total county actual use = 504,069.095
585’ prior to any other use.


Floors thirty - forty-four = 19,275.3 square feet per floor; 17,347.77 allocated to county per floor.
Total private actual use = 260,216.55


Total building = 992,677.95
825’ after other interests are added.
885’ after mechanical.
FAR = 1121:1


I've looked through the downtown Austin plan and through resources on the City's website, but can't find the map of allowable FAR. I know that there isn't a maximum height for the block, but isn't there a maximum FAR for the site? If there is, this building is going to require a variance. I'm looking forward to what is very likely to be another new tallest building (I'm guessing anywhere between 650 and 900, as the building is more likely to be shorter than what I've outlined than taller). The design better be decent.

[Jdawgboy]

With the recent Downtown Plan that has been presented to the city, I would agree that this building will likely be tall. There is no height limit for that location.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

There is no height limit for that location.

Yes, but isn't there a FAR limit?

[Downtown_Austin]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Yes, but isn't there a FAR limit?

CBD defaults to a limit of 8:1 FAR, then developers can start paying for density "bonuses".

No prescribed height limit in CBD, unless there's an overlay.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Downtown_Austin

CBD defaults to a limit of 8:1 FAR, then developers can start paying for density "bonuses".

No prescribed height limit in CBD, unless there's an overlay.

8:1 is certainly a lot smaller than what is needed by the county.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by Downtown Austin

No prescribed height limit in CBD, unless there's an overlay.

Or Capitol view corridors. This block isn't affected by either.

[KevinFromTexas]

The courthouse block measures 275 feet by 275 feet. That's 75,625 square feet. An acre is 43,560.

Since they're selling half the block, the lot will be 37,812 square feet.

So 500,000 divided by 37,812 is 13.2233153. So they'll need at least 13 floors just to have 500,000 "gross" square feet. But that includes square feet for all the walls and the guts of the building. They'll need more than 13 floors to actually have their usable space.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

The courthouse block measures 275 feet by 275 feet. That's 75,625 square feet. An acre is 43,560.

Since they're selling half the block, the lot will be 37,812 square feet.

So 500,000 divided by 37,812 is 13.2233153. So they'll need at least 13 floors just to have 500,000 "gross" square feet. But that includes square feet for all the walls and the guts of the building. They'll need more than 13 floors to actually have their usable space.

...

275 x 275 feet is 1.7 acres.

Half of that is .85 acres.

I'm posting this simply to say that we both basically agree on the lot size.

[KevinFromTexas]

I agree that it could end up being 600 feet or so with any added residential. If they added ~200 residential units, it could push it to that height. It's just hard to imagine what it'll be like. This would be a very different kind of building. I don't know of any county courthouse anywhere that has a truly shared use. Not to mention that at 600 feet it would probably be the tallest county building in the country. Unless New York or Chicago has something taller. In the Blues Brother movie, they very famously stormed the Daley Plaza, which not only holds city offices, and is the tallest city government building in the world, but also had the Cook County Tax Assessors' office in it.

Anyway, I put in a place holder of 620 feet into my LEGO model, and oh man, that would be sweet. There's a sort of canyon feel coming up there with the W, 360, the courthouse and farther away The Austonian. Not to mention whatever they do at Green. There's going to be some major density around there.

[wwmiv]

I'm republishing this list here:

Sam.Biscoe@co.travis.tx.us
Cheryl.Brown@co.travis.tx.us
melissa.velasquez@co.travis.tx.us
Cheryl.Aker@co.travis.tx.us
josie.zavala@co.travis.tx.us
ron.davis@co.travis.tx.us
feli.chavez@co.travis.tx.us
Sue.Spears@co.travis.tx.us
Deone.Wilhite@co.travis.tx.us
sarah.eckhardt@co.travis.tx.us
peter.einhorn@co.travis.tx.us
loretta.farb@co.travis.tx.us
joe.hon@co.travis.tx.us
Karen.Huber@co.travis.tx.us
Garry.Brown@co.travis.tx.us
Lori.Duarte@co.travis.tx.us
michael.nalick@co.travis.tx.us
Margaret.Gomez@co.travis.tx.us
Edith.Moreida@co.travis.tx.us
Norma.Gonzales@co.travis.tx.us

We should email them all and push for three things:

1) ground level retail or some other decent interaction with the street.
2) mixed-use in the actual tower.

most importantly:

3) -decent- (better yet, outstanding) materials/finishing/cladding/etc. on the tower.