Canadian LRT/RT projects U/C

[1overcosc]

The Confederation Line is moving into a stage where there's a lot more picture-taking opportunity. To date, pretty much all work aside from Pimisi station has been underground in the tunnel, surface construction is only just starting up around now.

[SkahHigh]

What will happen to the Bombardier Talent cars when the Confederation line goes into service? Two types of train on two lines or an unified system?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

What will happen to the Bombardier Talent cars when the Confederation line goes into service? Two types of train on two lines or an unified system?

The Talents have since been replaced with Alstom Lints.

There will be two types of train lines. The existing O-Train will run the diesel Alstom Lints as a heavy rail service, the new Confederation Line will run the electric Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs.

So yes, two types of train on two lines.

The city will be marketing it a single system called the O-Train. Two lines:
-O-Train Confederation Line, coloured red on the map
-O-Train Trillium Line, coloured green on the map

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The Talents have since been replaced with Alstom Lints.

There will be two types of train lines. The existing O-Train will run the diesel Alstom Lints as a heavy rail service, the new Confederation Line will run the electric Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs.

So yes, two types of train on two lines.

The city will be marketing it a single system called the O-Train. Two lines:
-O-Train Confederation Line, coloured red on the map
-O-Train Trillium Line, coloured green on the map

Oh ok, I just read they were replaced last March, my bad.

I imagine they couldn't have the Alstom Citadis trains on the Trillium line because it had to be electrified and they don't have the right of way?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

Oh ok, I just read they were replaced last March, my bad.

I imagine they couldn't have the Alstom Citadis trains on the Trillium line because it had to be electrified and they don't have the right of way?

First reason, the Citadis are electric, the Lints are diesel. That requires them to be separate fleets for each line.

There's also no track connection between the two. The junction at Bayview is multi-level with the Confederation Line & Trillium Line platforms directly above each other, the tracks don't connect.

Furthermore, the Citadis are electric trams, technically, and the Trillium line tracks are mainline railway. Trams aren't legally allowed to operate on mainline railways in Canada.

[ACmodels]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The Talents have since been replaced with Alstom Lints.

There will be two types of train lines. The existing O-Train will run the diesel Alstom Lints as a heavy rail service, the new Confederation Line will run the electric Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs.

So yes, two types of train on two lines.

The city will be marketing it a single system called the O-Train. Two lines:
-O-Train Confederation Line, coloured red on the map
-O-Train Trillium Line, coloured green on the map

Aren't the Talents just in storage while the Lints operate. Someone told me the Talents would be used again once Phase 2 is complete.

[lrt's friend]

I have just returned from a three week trip in Poland, the Czech Republic and Germany where I used all manner of transit.

Ottawa's plans for the Trillium line are flat out ridiculous and are designed to fail and this will get worse with Phase 2. Nobody in their right mind would use diesel trains and a single track in order to deliver the level of service that Ottawa is proposing. We have already seen the recent service expansion did not meet the original promises. You certainly would not see this sort of thing in Europe. Everywhere frequent service was being delivered there was double track using electric trains. This is the only way to provide fast service. I saw one exception involving trams going through a historic arch where the tracks merged for perhaps 30 meters. Of course, trams operate like buses and are not dependent on complicated signaling systems and this short exception did not impede trams significantly.

As far as Lint and Talent trains sharing the same line, I don't know how that is possible when their platform requirements do not entirely match.

[MalcolmTucker]

How much of the line is corridor constrained? The tunnel under Dow's Lake, a bridge or four? Trusting people to cross the tracks might be a bigger obstacle - needing to build grade separated stations would be a big expense.

You would think double tracks with gauntlet track in those sections would perform better than trying to time everything perfectly.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

How much of the line is corridor constrained? The tunnel under Dow's Lake, a bridge or four? Trusting people to cross the tracks might be a bigger obstacle - needing to build grade separated stations would be a big expense.

You would think double tracks with gauntlet track in those sections would perform better than trying to time everything perfectly.

The track is grade separated but the separation was created years ago for what was a former signal track freight line. Nothing was planned for urban transit service when this was done. The problem is the number of bridges (several) needing major modification or replacement as well as the Dow's Lake tunnel and the cut to the north of that, which will require major blasting through bedrock. The original plan was going to require a 3 year closure in order to address the major modifications to the right of way but that was scrapped because of local Liberal/Conservative political dynamics. The city now figures it can apply a cheap solution, which does not address the problems with the right of way. The city has double tracked about the only places they could without major modification but single track sections remain long and this has slowed down trains because they now have to wait for signals. The second phase is going to be worse because of potential complicated train movements if service is extended to the airport and there is yet another single track bridge at a critical point on the line where the most trains need to interact for Phase 2. It is just a bad plan and the likelihood of even slower trains and less frequent service in the future is high because of the constraints of the right of way. This can only be resolved by going to the expense of replacing some of the bridges so that more double tracking can take place. However, that has not been put into the Phase 2 budget.

[ACmodels]

I agree with you guys up there are your opinions on how the Trillium Line might fail for phase 2.

But I might have an idea which might sound really stupid so you can criticize all you want I'm not going to fight back. But here is my crazy idea in which the city/taxpayers don't have to pay a single dollar. People from Ottawa might of heard of MOOSE
(Mobility Ottawa-Outaouais Systems and Enterprises) as they are proposing to have commuter rail in Ottawa by 2017 from what I'v read of. I was thinking if MOOSE wants to use the main trunk line if the Elwood Sub and since it is just impossible to have commuter rail and rapid transit on a single tracked line, I believe if MOOSE wants to use the line they should be able to pay for double tracking the line in a agreement that MOOSE can use the line for their purposes AND for the Trillium Line.

But it would come at a cost for the city as they will be unable to electrify the line from Greenboro and Bayview.

Now that's my crazy/stupid ideas. Please fill free to criticize or leave a comment. I just want to know your opinions on it.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The track is grade separated but the separation was created years ago for what was a former signal track freight line. Nothing was planned for urban transit service when this was done. The problem is the number of bridges (several) needing major modification or replacement as well as the Dow's Lake tunnel and the cut to the north of that, which will require major blasting through bedrock. The original plan was going to require a 3 year closure in order to address the major modifications to the right of way but that was scrapped because of local Liberal/Conservative political dynamics. The city now figures it can apply a cheap solution, which does not address the problems with the right of way. The city has double tracked about the only places they could without major modification but single track sections remain long and this has slowed down trains because they now have to wait for signals. The second phase is going to be worse because of potential complicated train movements if service is extended to the airport and there is yet another single track bridge at a critical point on the line where the most trains need to interact for Phase 2. It is just a bad plan and the likelihood of even slower trains and less frequent service in the future is high because of the constraints of the right of way. This can only be resolved by going to the expense of replacing some of the bridges so that more double tracking can take place. However, that has not been put into the Phase 2 budget.

The city has yet to acknowledge that their existing expansion is a failure. The failure comes from not building sidings long enough to have some redundancy in the system. I think this comes in part from not having any engineers on staff that have any knowledge of railway construction and more important, railway operation. The line was needlessly shutdown to construct 2 short sidings. Thus is something that would never happen on CN or CP. The lack of trained oversight means nobody vets the consultants recommendations. There is no long range plan for eventually doubling the existing single track sections.
At least the city could have a plan for completing the least expensive segments such as lengthiness the existing sidings. The current plans for adding additional lanes to Hwy 417 call for double track clearance under the bridge. Maybe that can be extended north to the new Gladstone siding. Since the province is paying for the bridge expansion maybe the city and the province could reach a cost sharing agreement to get this all done at once.
If the city had a plan, made it public and stuck to it then the public would see light at the end of the tunnel.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The track is grade separated but the separation was created years ago for what was a former signal track freight line. Nothing was planned for urban transit service when this was done. The problem is the number of bridges (several) needing major modification or replacement as well as the Dow's Lake tunnel and the cut to the north of that, which will require major blasting through bedrock. The original plan was going to require a 3 year closure in order to address the major modifications to the right of way but that was scrapped because of local Liberal/Conservative political dynamics. The city now figures it can apply a cheap solution, which does not address the problems with the right of way. The city has double tracked about the only places they could without major modification but single track sections remain long and this has slowed down trains because they now have to wait for signals. The second phase is going to be worse because of potential complicated train movements if service is extended to the airport and there is yet another single track bridge at a critical point on the line where the most trains need to interact for Phase 2. It is just a bad plan and the likelihood of even slower trains and less frequent service in the future is high because of the constraints of the right of way. This can only be resolved by going to the expense of replacing some of the bridges so that more double tracking can take place. However, that has not been put into the Phase 2 budget.

It will be quite something in 8 years to see the contrast between Ottawa's two rail routes. On the one hand you'll have high-end Confederation Line with its very high frequencies, fast speeds, and huge trains, and then the patchwork Trillium Line on the other end.

I really don't think the airport spur is going to happen as there's no money for it in the budget unless the Airport Authority coughs up the entire amount (which is unlikely).

As for bridges, there's about a dozen of them, as well as the bedrock section. The 417 bridge is being replaced in 2017 by the MTO, and it will protect for a double track line beneath it. Over time, as more of these bridges have to be replaced anyway due to reaching end-of-life, the cost of double tracking will go down.

Predicting the future is obviously difficult but I think what we'll see is:
1) After Phase 2 is finished, the inadequacy and relative shittiness of the Trillium Line will become apparent to everyone.
2) The city will respond by reducing the Trillium Line to nothing more than a local route for the places immediately adjacent (ie. walking distance) to its stations. Buses will be routed to the Confederation Line instead using the SE Transitway and other routes.
3) Public demands for improvement and double tracking and electrification will mount as those living in the south end feel shortchanged by their shitty line relative to the high quality of Confederation.
4) After the city finally has money for more stuff after spending most of its transit money on the Confederation Line, around 2030 or so, double tracking Trillium will be at the top of the list due to these public demands.
5) And voila---we have a Trillium Line upgraded to the Confederation Line's standards, in like 2040 or something.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

It will be quite something in 8 years to see the contrast between Ottawa's two rail routes. On the one hand you'll have high-end Confederation Line with its very high frequencies, fast speeds, and huge trains, and then the patchwork Trillium Line on the other end.

I really don't think the airport spur is going to happen as there's no money for it in the budget unless the Airport Authority coughs up the entire amount (which is unlikely).

As for bridges, there's about a dozen of them, as well as the bedrock section. The 417 bridge is being replaced in 2017 by the MTO, and it will protect for a double track line beneath it. Over time, as more of these bridges have to be replaced anyway due to reaching end-of-life, the cost of double tracking will go down.

Predicting the future is obviously difficult but I think what we'll see is:
1) After Phase 2 is finished, the inadequacy and relative shittiness of the Trillium Line will become apparent to everyone.
2) The city will respond by reducing the Trillium Line to nothing more than a local route for the places immediately adjacent (ie. walking distance) to its stations. Buses will be routed to the Confederation Line instead using the SE Transitway and other routes.
3) Public demands for improvement and double tracking and electrification will mount as those living in the south end feel shortchanged by their shitty line relative to the high quality of Confederation.
4) After the city finally has money for more stuff after spending most of its transit money on the Confederation Line, around 2030 or so, double tracking Trillium will be at the top of the list due to these public demands.
5) And voila---we have a Trillium Line upgraded to the Confederation Line's standards, in like 2040 or something.

Well, isn't that an optimistic scenario? 2040?

But really, Confederation Line Phase 2 is not the end of the line for the Confederation Line. We will be talking about Phase 3 as well and the pressure will be on to extend it beyond Place d'Orleans, Baseline and Bayshore. The pressure will really come from Kanata to be as well served as Orleans and they will win.

The crap line southward will remain mostly used by Carleton students and that is good enough for them, with regular summer closures to address the latest deficiency.

We will welcome the MTO replacement of the Queensway bridge but that won't allow the construction of any further double tracking as the Gladstone Avenue bridge also needs to be replaced.

My trip to central Europe was a real eye opener. A city such as Wroclaw, Poland is smaller than Ottawa has many tram lines, mostly in exclusive right of ways although not grade separated. This city is truly a place you can live without a car as the tram lines extend to near the edge of the city and is supplemented by an excellent bus network. The tramways are also interlined (often 5 different routes together) reducing the number of transfers required. Prague is somewhat bigger than Ottawa has 3 subways, all travelling through the central part of the city and also many tramways. The electronic signs were also impressive giving you wait times for each tram route. Although Canadian cities are making better progress than their American counterparts, our transit efforts pale compare to Europe. But of course, we have to walk before we run. We have really allowed ourselves to fall well behind in transportation infrastructure based on the false assumption that the automobile was going to be the solution indefinitely. The great fear is that we will only address key corridors not addressing the needs of the masses on that last mile or so to your destination. This will always limit the success of any plans and is a common problem with American rail plans that often fail to provide decent transit connections from the rail stations.

[1overcosc]

Europe has a billion things in its favour, that's not exactly what a North American city should be benchmarking itself against.

We should be emulating other North American cities that have done very well with transit, such as Vancouver and Toronto.

Toronto, at least within the 416 and increasingly in Mississauga and Brampton as well, has done a very good job resolving the last mile problem with efficient local bus service. On that topic, in my opinion that is the worst issue with Ottawa's transit progress or lack thereof: The failure of the city to understand the value and importance of frequent, efficient local bus routes. We're going to spend billions on what's basically a metro system, but with half the city getting no more than a bus coming twice an hour that winds its way through loop-de-loops.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Europe has a billion things in its favour, that's not exactly what a North American city should be benchmarking itself against.

We should be emulating other North American cities that have done very well with transit, such as Vancouver and Toronto.

Toronto, at least within the 416 and increasingly in Mississauga and Brampton as well, has done a very good job resolving the last mile problem with efficient local bus service. On that topic, in my opinion that is the worst issue with Ottawa's transit progress or lack thereof: The failure of the city to understand the value and importance of frequent, efficient local bus routes. We're going to spend billions on what's basically a metro system, but with half the city getting no more than a bus coming twice an hour that winds its way through loop-de-loops.

We can start by adding a high frequency bus service (including weekends and evenings) on Bank Street (and run it to Greenboro where there is a Park n Ride) so we don't have to use a car to get to the new Lansdowne. The current service stinks except for Red Black games. If there is any place we need forward thinking on transit the most, this is it. But this city's obsession with the Confederation Line is blinding them of other needs.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We can start by adding a high frequency bus service (including weekends and evenings) on Bank Street (and run it to Greenboro where there is a Park n Ride) so we don't have to use a car to get to the new Lansdowne. The current service stinks except for Red Black games. If there is any place we need forward thinking on transit the most, this is it. But this city's obsession with the Confederation Line is blinding them of other needs.

Well that small piece of the puzzle at least is happening. Transpo's 2015 budget included money for enhanced Bank Street service in the off-peak.

[SkahHigh]

What's the current frequency for the Trillium line?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

What's the current frequency for the Trillium line?

Every 12 minutes, a reduction of 3 min from the previous 15 minutes. This is pretty sad for the amount of money and time spent on implementing the expansion. This is far from the targeted 8 minute frequency.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Every 12 minutes, a reduction of 3 min from the previous 15 minutes. This is pretty sad for the amount of money and time spent on implementing the expansion. This is far from the targeted 8 minute frequency.

It's down to 10 minutes now, according to CPTDB.

It was a very cheap expansion... something like a $70M upgrade. In total, including the initial setup costs back in 2000, less than $200M of capital has been spent on the whole 8km line to date.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry for helping to derail the general thread guys!