[Dartmouth] Mic Mac Mall Developments | ^115 m | 10 Phases | Proposed

[Colin May]

The 2022 assessed value of the mall, $98.5 million, is down $115,000,000 since 2015 and down $40,000.000 since 2020.
Oh yes, let us build subways by tunnelling through the granite and then we can have the most expensive subway in the world. Quite soon peninsula Halifax will no longer be the centre of our universe.
I note a significant number of expensive detached homes SE of the Sackville landfill on the western side of Highway 101. As population off the peninsula increases it is just a matter of time before employment becomes closer to where people live.

The cost of subway tunnelling : https://tunnelingonline.com/why-tunn...-in-the-world/

[TheGreenBastard]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The 2022 assessed value of the mall, $98.5 million, is down $115,000,000 since 2015 and down $40,000.000 since 2020.
Oh yes, let us build subways by tunnelling through the granite and then we can have the most expensive subway in the world. Quite soon peninsula Halifax will no longer be the centre of our universe.
I note a significant number of expensive detached homes SE of the Sackville landfill on the western side of Highway 101

Is this some sort of joke?

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by HaliKid

Out of curiosity, where abouts in city do people see a viable LRT option. West end to downtown? North end to downtown?

To start with, I'd go with Cherrybrook to Shannon Park and Burnside via Main Street, with major stops at Lake Loon, Main Street NSCC, and here at Mic Mac. Acquire the ROW ASAP, and then upzone the s**t out of the length of Main Street. The Shannon Park end would tie into fast ferry.

It would require being proactive, but it would ultimately be easier than trying to retrofit areas that are already built-up. With experience gained here we could then focus on more difficult areas.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

To start with, I'd go with Cherrybrook to Shannon Park and Burnside via Main Street, with major stops at Lake Loon, Main Street NSCC, and here at Mic Mac. Acquire the ROW ASAP, and then upzone the s**t out of the length of Main Street. The Shannon Park end would tie into fast ferry.

The problem is that you are hitching the wagon of success or failure of this multi-billion dollar venture to the fast ferry. Even if it were to work as promised, it only satisfies the needs of a small subset of potential users, those going to DT Halifax. Transit cannot be counted upon to deliver those other users reliably to the universities, hospitals, BLIP, or wherever else they may want to go.

OTOH the capacity limits of the fast ferry may well be reached just with those DT people. That says more about the lack of utility of the ferry than the land-based feeder service.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The problem is that you are hitching the wagon of success or failure of this multi-billion dollar venture to the fast ferry. Even if it were to work as promised, it only satisfies the needs of a small subset of potential users, those going to DT Halifax. Transit cannot be counted upon to deliver those other users reliably to the universities, hospitals, BLIP, or wherever else they may want to go.

OTOH the capacity limits of the fast ferry may well be reached just with those DT people. That says more about the lack of utility of the ferry than the land-based feeder service.

I'll take the fast ferry because it's better than anything else they are offering, which is basically buses sharing roads with other traffic with a few dedicated lanes here and there. Sure, there will be limitations, but at the same time it seems kind of silly to not take advantage of this natural right of way that doesn't take capacity from any other form of transportation in the city.

Really, what needs to happen to properly serve Dartmouth/Halifax is a dedicated transit crossing (preferably LRT-based, connected to an elevated LRT system that is completely independent of road issues). Given that the plan is to replace the MacKay bridge in the relatively near future, this would be the time to invest in such a crossing.

I don't see any way around it but to spend big money to build for the future - they're talking about doubling the population, so now is the time to kick start this thing and get it going. It's going to be very expensive up front because this need has been largely neglected by past forms of government, but I don't see any way around just biting the bullet and doing it at this point.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by TheGreenBastard

Is this some sort of joke?

Google Earth is your friend....compare December 2022 imagery with the October 2017 imagery.
In 2017 there are very few homes to the North and to the East of McCabe Lake. By October 2019 there are a lot of homes. Back in 1991 I walked the top of the Sackville landfill as part of a group tasked with devising a new waste management strategy for Metro. I drank water from the leachate treatment plant at the base of the landfill - no problem. The tree hugger enviro freaks on the committee refused to take a drink, a couple of whom were ardent smokers who frequently left meetings to satisfy the uncontrollable urge to pollute their lungs.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The problem is that you are hitching the wagon of success or failure of this multi-billion dollar venture to the fast ferry. Even if it were to work as promised, it only satisfies the needs of a small subset of potential users, those going to DT Halifax. Transit cannot be counted upon to deliver those other users reliably to the universities, hospitals, BLIP, or wherever else they may want to go.

OTOH the capacity limits of the fast ferry may well be reached just with those DT people. That says more about the lack of utility of the ferry than the land-based feeder service.

You're not going to get a full system at once. Honestly, linking those users to Burnside would probably be pretty huge and would be the first step in a proper network.

As for wider connections, if you don't want to depend on the fast ferry, the alternative would be to make plans for a link across the rebuilt Mackay bridge. Again, the time to plan for that is ASAP.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The problem is that you are hitching the wagon of success or failure of this multi-billion dollar venture to the fast ferry. Even if it were to work as promised, it only satisfies the needs of a small subset of potential users, those going to DT Halifax. Transit cannot be counted upon to deliver those other users reliably to the universities, hospitals, BLIP, or wherever else they may want to go.

OTOH the capacity limits of the fast ferry may well be reached just with those DT people. That says more about the lack of utility of the ferry than the land-based feeder service.

Move the workplace closer to where commuters live and reverse the traffic flow to make the Bedford/Sackville area the main employment node. Put a new hospital in the area. Leave downtown Halifax as 'Barville' - fits in nicely with our BBC economy (Burgers,Booze and Coffee)
The fast ferry is akin to putting a band-aid on a severed limb. You/we cannot trust any plans from HRM until they publish traffic data entering the peninsula.

[terrynorthend]

Definitely time to start on this, especially with HSC Annex plans coming online as a density node too. LRT down Main Street->M Mall->Shannon Park is a good plan, continue across the New MacKay-> HSC.

Time to exercise the de-industrialization of the southern peninsula. IIRC there was talk of relocating Halterm etc, except the Cruise Terminal to Eastern Passage where there is lots of open industrial land. This would free up more high-value land for development south of DT, as well as open the rail cut for transit. LRT could use this to then continue from HSC->Dal/SMU->DT. Another line could come in via Bedford Hwy. Another along the 102/101 and 103 corridors.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

You're not going to get a full system at once. Honestly, linking those users to Burnside would probably be pretty huge and would be the first step in a proper network.

I agree that serving Burnside has been largely undersold, but would be very useful.

IIRC, adding pedestrian access to Burnside streets is planned for and being implemented by the Integrated Mobility Plan, so serving all the people who work in Burnside seems like low-hanging-fruit to jumpstart a transit route that serves the area. Anecdotally, there is a lot of traffic filtering off the 111 that turns off into Burnside instead of the bridge, so it would seem (superficially, at least) that there is inherent value here.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

IIRC there was talk of relocating Halterm etc, except the Cruise Terminal to Eastern Passage where there is lots of open industrial land.

The major problem with that idea (which we talked about at some length here several months back), though, is rail service to a container operation there. It will/would be prohibitively difficult, disruptive and expensive to build. There seems to be no really good or practical place to put it

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

Time to exercise the de-industrialization of the southern peninsula. IIRC there was talk of relocating Halterm etc, except the Cruise Terminal to Eastern Passage where there is lots of open industrial land. This would free up more high-value land for development south of DT, as well as open the rail cut for transit. LRT could use this to then continue from HSC->Dal/SMU->DT. Another line could come in via Bedford Hwy. Another along the 102/101 and 103 corridors.

Agree 100%

I was looking at the rail cut last night on Google Earth, and there is actually lots of room there to widen the rail cut to accommodate LRT, in fact two dedicated LRT tracks, one inbound and the other outbound, even while maintaining the CNR line if necessary. I imagine a number of the highway bridges over the rail cut would have to be replaced as part of the widening project, but, even given this, I would imagine this option would be the least disruptive for the most people while at the same time giving the most possible bang for the buck in terms of increasing public transit onto the peninsula.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Agree 100%

I was looking at the rail cut last night on Google Earth, and there is actually lots of room there to widen the rail cut to accommodate LRT, in fact two dedicated LRT tracks, one inbound and the other outbound, even while maintaining the CNR line if necessary. I imagine a number of the highway bridges over the rail cut would have to be replaced as part of the widening project, but, even given this, I would imagine this option would be the least disruptive for the most people while at the same time giving the most possible bang for the buck in terms of increasing public transit onto the peninsula.

If you knew what was in the containers you would live well away from the rail lines and the container piers.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Colin May

If you knew what was in the containers you would live well away from the rail lines and the container piers.

I believe he was talking about developing the cut for LRT after the PSA South End container terminal has been re-located to the Dartmouth side.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I believe he was talking about developing the cut for LRT after the PSA South End container terminal has been re-located to the Dartmouth side.

The container pier will not be moved to Dartmouth. The logistics would be a nightmare and running dangerous goods through the downtown is the major constraint.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The container pier will not be moved to Dartmouth. The logistics would be a nightmare and running dangerous goods through the downtown is the major constraint.

They are also infilling the deep water berths to increase the size of the terminal. PSA isn't going anywhere

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Agree 100%

I was looking at the rail cut last night on Google Earth, and there is actually lots of room there to widen the rail cut to accommodate LRT, in fact two dedicated LRT tracks, one inbound and the other outbound, even while maintaining the CNR line if necessary. I imagine a number of the highway bridges over the rail cut would have to be replaced as part of the widening project, but, even given this, I would imagine this option would be the least disruptive for the most people while at the same time giving the most possible bang for the buck in terms of increasing public transit onto the peninsula.

CN learned all it needed to when it negotiated (fought) with HRM about replacing the Quinpool road bridge over the cut a couple of years ago. You pay for it ,No you pay for it. Along with the Railroads renovation of the track to allow double stacked Containers I can understand why a Montreal based conglomerate, one of the largest railroads in the World, has very little time for "local Halifax concerns". Who would make them. Our Montreal based P.M.? Unless the city comes to CN with a locked up profitable business case to help enhance the assets then keep whistling folks. Now if HRM diverted other funds ... was that a ten speed?

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The container pier will not be moved to Dartmouth. The logistics would be a nightmare and running dangerous goods through the downtown is the major constraint.

Quite possibly. But in the context of the exchange I was referring to, entirely beside the point.

[hoser111]

Dartmouth density: Development would add more than 2,000 units to Mic Mac Mall lands

Entertainment centre, pedestrian corridor and new transit hub part of the proposal

Seven, 30-plus storey towers. Five, nine-storey buildings. A 12-storey seniors living complex. And that’s just the start of what’s planned for the parking lots of Mic Mac Mall.

And probably a name change too....

https://www.saltwire.com/halifax/bus...nds-100805147/

[Hali87]

The article lists the projected number of units at a total of 2410. This is significant, but for perspective, the Mumford redevelopment is projected at about 5500 units (the Phase 1 proposal covers about 2/5 of the lands to be developed). It's also just a medium-sized drop in the bucket in terms of the total number of residential units that need to get built here over the next few years.