Canada's 4th city

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I call Ottawa, "Mississauga on the Rideau" because that is exactly what it feels like to me. Mostly a giant suburb.

I don't think anyone would ever mistake Downtown Ottawa, the ByWard Market or any of our streetcar suburbs for Mississauga or any other suburb within Peel Region.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I don't think anyone would ever mistake Downtown Ottawa, the ByWard Market or any of our streetcar suburbs for Mississauga or any other suburb within Peel Region.

Indeed. Ottawa isn't really more suburban than most other cities of that size in North America, and while Calgary has the more impressive skyline and infrastructure it's definitely more suburban in nature overall. This was was actually my first impression when moving to Ottawa from Calgary for University back in 2001. Felt very weird to me at the time - I was used to seeing urban neighbourhoods well outside downtown in a place like Toronto but assumed Ottawa was more similar to Calgary. Not to mention the classic Ontario slab apartments everywhere in the suburbs.

Though it's fair to say that the makeup of these neighbourhoods doesn't really impact the importance of either city.

[Acajack]

I think Ottawa=Mississauga is just Truenorth expressing his frustration at many bad planning, development and other decisions made by the City of Ottawa (and the National Capital Commission, which has big influence too).

The truth is that in terms of urbanity central Ottawa is quite a bit above average for the North American context.

Outside of the central area, it's true that Ottawa is similar to Mississauga. But that's true of outer areas of many other Canadian cities (even the "best" ones) and around the world even.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Does anybody visit Ottawa for more than Parliament Hill?

I don't know what the motivations of all visitors to Ottawa are, but looking at the top things to do on TripAdvisor for either, Ottawa does seem to have considerably more interesting stuff. And the Ottawa list doesn't include stuff in Gatineau like the History Museum, Gatineau Park or the Casino. All of which is right across the river as opposed to some distance away like Banff and the Rockies.

[MonctonRad]

Parliament Hill for sure, but, all the museums and the National Art Gallery are attractions as well. I've gone to Senators games in Ottawa too. The Rideau Canal is interesting, and, I've hung around in Gatineau Park.

I don't find Ottawa boring for a 3-4 day visit.

[Coldrsx]

Ottawa is a fantastic 2-4 day visit and as our nation's capital has far more than it would otherwise.

[samne]

Great thread and both cities can arguably make claim.

I’d go with what others have said and Domestically Calgary and Internationally Ottawa.

Either way- Impressive that these are 4th and 5th cities in a country with its population size and relatively short history.

[Marshsparrow]

Ottawa is only 2 hours from Montreal - that is the real attraction

[Zeej]

I quite like Ottawa, but I give Calgary the edge for number 4. It appears to have reached a level of maturity for a relatively young city and its growth trajectory will continue to separate it from Ottawa. Maybe Edmonton profits from Calgary's increased costs to close the gap a bit, but I think that ship has probably sailed.

Perhaps the question might be, in the near future, how much larger than Ottawa would Edmonton need to be in order to be considered the number 5 city?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I don't think anyone would ever mistake Downtown Ottawa, the ByWard Market or any of our streetcar suburbs for Mississauga or any other suburb within Peel Region.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think Ottawa=Mississauga is just Truenorth expressing his frustration at many bad planning, development and other decisions made by the City of Ottawa (and the National Capital Commission, which has big influence too).

The truth is that in terms of urbanity central Ottawa is quite a bit above average for the North American context.

Outside of the central area, it's true that Ottawa is similar to Mississauga. But that's true of outer areas of many other Canadian cities (even the "best" ones) and around the world even.

I mean that kinda speaks to the generic nature of cities these days. Most suburbs are indistinguishable from each other. The only thing that makes Ottawa unique is that rather small urban core. The rest of the city is quite generic.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know what the motivations of all visitors to Ottawa are, but looking at the top things to do on TripAdvisor for either, Ottawa does seem to have considerably more interesting stuff. And the Ottawa list doesn't include stuff in Gatineau like the History Museum, Gatineau Park or the Casino. All of which is right across the river as opposed to some distance away like Banff and the Rockies.

Here's an easy test. Go look at the itinerary of various tour operators for their usual Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City packages. The vast majority of them don't spend more than an afternoon in Ottawa for a 4-5 day package.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Here's an easy test. Go look at the itinerary of various tour operators for their usual Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City packages. The vast majority of them don't spend more than an afternoon in Ottawa for a 4-5 day package.

Well yeah. I am not saying Ottawa is Florence. Only that for the average tourist there is more interesting stuff to see in Ottawa than in Calgary.

[ssiguy]

I think Calgary's 4th place will be further solidified in the coming years and not just due to it's explosive population growth. Ottawa is a political centre and therefore much of it's influence is totally dependent upon which party is in power. Trudeau's increase in the civil service by a whopping 40% in 8 years has obviously helped Ottawa and his general antipathy towards Alberta and the overall oil/gas sector has inhibited Calgary & Edmonton. Needless to say, with Trudeau being given the boot {God willing} and with PP the heir apparent, that is going to change dramatically.

The first thing PP is going to do to try to bring some kind of sanity back to the books is make massive cuts to the civil service. When gov't, especially Conservative, ones make cuts it is very much centered around the actually bureaucracy and try to instill as little damage as possible in actual local services. The Tories have very little support in Ottawa but local services hurt every part of the country including Conservative strongholds and flip ridings. People care about local service but no one gives a damn about the fat cats in Ottawa. This means a vastly disproportionate amount of these cuts are going to take place in Ottawa as well as all the spin-off jobs that benefit from Ottawa's largess.

Conversely, PP will bring in policies that emphasis oil/gas as well as general natural resource extraction/development and Calgary is the nation's economic centre for this potent part of the economy.

Oil/gas/resources are both the strength and Achilles Heel of Calgary's economy and ditto the government for Ottawa and things are about to take a huge swing in Calgary's favour much to the detriment of Ottawa.

[hipster duck]

Why did Calgary become the white collar city where oil and gas decisions were made?

IIRC, Leduc (near Edmonton) was the site of the first major oil discovery in Alberta.

Calgary vs. Ottawa is a debate, but I'd agree with everyone else that Calgary won the Calgary vs. Edmonton fight a long time ago.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well yeah. I am not saying Ottawa is Florence. Only that for the average tourist there is more interesting stuff to see in Ottawa than in Calgary.

Probably. But tourism isn't the sole determinant of a city's worth. And in Ottawa's case, it's usually competing with Montreal for tourists or a 1 day add-on for most tours.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Why did Calgary become the white collar city where oil and gas decisions were made?

IIRC, Leduc (near Edmonton) was the site of the first major oil discovery in Alberta.

Calgary vs. Ottawa is a debate, but I'd agree with everyone else that Calgary won the Calgary vs. Edmonton fight a long time ago.

Turner Valley and areas around it were really what drove early oil in Alberta, not Leduc and that is often overlooked.

Calgary was also more entrepreneurial and less of a 'government town' which inherently led to what we have today.

Add in the location/proximity to the mountains and bob's your uncle.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Why did Calgary become the white collar city where oil and gas decisions were made?

IIRC, Leduc (near Edmonton) was the site of the first major oil discovery in Alberta.

Calgary vs. Ottawa is a debate, but I'd agree with everyone else that Calgary won the Calgary vs. Edmonton fight a long time ago.

Calgary was always the locus of big political debate, especially as American immigrants clashed with British immigrants. As a result, political parties formed out of there instead of Edmonton, which was where the Liberal Party was originally established and was removed by the 1920s. As a consequence, successive political parties have put assets in Calgary over Edmonton as a means to wrest control away from Ottawa and for a while there, London.

Also, oil was first exploited in southern Alberta.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

In reality, for Canada, Toronto is in a league of its own. Then Montreal by itself as a city of 4M. Then Vancouver at almost half the size of Montreal. And then there's Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa in the 1-2M league. Each of those could actually just be a large suburb in the GTA, by population.

How is Vancouver @ 3 million "almost half" of Montreal at 4 million?

Montreal and Vancouver are getting more and more close to being a clump of the number 2 and 3 cities separated by a big gulf from Toronto and from numbers 3-6.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

How is Vancouver @ 3 million "almost half" of Montreal at 4 million?

Montreal and Vancouver are getting more and more close to being a clump of the number 2 and 3 cities separated by a big gulf from Toronto and from numbers 3-6.

I was going by this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ions_in_Canada

Montreal ~ 4.3M
Vancouver ~ 2.64M

So about 38% smaller. Not 50%. Fair.

I think having a gap that's more than the size of Ottawa-Gatineau puts Montreal in a different league. Vancouver is closer in size to Calgary than it is to Montreal. And that's just population. We're not even looking at economic and cultural relevance, of which Montreal is unquestionably in another league than Vancouver.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Why did Calgary become the white collar city where oil and gas decisions were made?

IIRC, Leduc (near Edmonton) was the site of the first major oil discovery in Alberta.
...

Calgary lawyer JB Barron built a modern office building on speculation and convinced oil companies to have their Alberta offices in Calgary.
It could have been Edmonton. You snooze, you lose

In 1949, lawyer Jacob Bell Barron began building himself a home on top of a business; an 11-storey art-modern-style building at 610 8th Ave. SW, then the western edge of Calgary’s downtown.

Barron came to Calgary at the urging of his uncle, Charlie Bell, who built the King George Hotel. In 1947, oil was discovered in Leduc, and JB Barron’s building would come to house several burgeoning oil companies.

The structure, designed by Jack Cawston, cost just $1.25 million to build. It was one of only a few buildings in Calgary built in the modern style at the time.

The style was modelled after two other significant buildings, the Lougheed Building and The Grand Theatre but with some unique features.

The big oil boom
When completed in 1951, the building was known as the Mobil Oil Building.

One of the first multi-use buildings in the city, it housed Sun Oil, Shell, Socony Vacuum Oil, and Trans Canada Pipelines, as well as a two-storey theatre, and office space on the second to tenth floors.

The budding oil sector “anchored the oil industry in Calgary, transforming the city into the oil capital of Canada,” says writer and historian, Irena Karshenbaum, in a 2011 Chinook Country Historical Society newsletter.

https://calgarycitizen.com/p/calgary-barron-building

Once the cluster of oil companies was in Calgary, there was no turning back.