Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[pwp]

Originally Posted by SoundOfPhiladelphia

As a rail fanatic, some retiered SEPTA heads told me it's set up the way it is becuase if the Suburban counties had their way, they'd trash suburban service and leave reverse-communting Philadelphian's in a bind.

Philly is very segregated on almost every level between ever increasing poverty in the center of town with steps in wealth until you reach the old money/upper class on the edges of the built-out area. Most areas outside the city and parts of DelCo do not want transit becuase of their fears of the "wrong people" becoming accessable to their neighborhoods. Ignorant? yes. but that seems to be the view. Even if MikeToronto's vision was remotley realisitic, the patriarchal views of the citizenry will shoot that bird straight out of the sky.

At the end of the day, SEPTA is a horror to ride. The only thing they do go the distance in is graffiti cleaning (<i>Are you listening, NYC</i>?). Other than that, the people on Market St do. not. care. 90% of the ridership is people who have no choice, so therefore, this is what you get.

But this goes back to the Philadelphia mentality in general. People seem not to believe in their city, themselves, the future, or really anything outside the Eagles. Bitter, angry, and close minded....

Regardless that these barriers exist today, at some point they'll need to be overcome as the City is changing and will - in my opinion - face an inevitable situation where an influx of new, young residents demand more transit options. America is obviously undergoing a paradigm shift with regard to the "green movement" as the younger generations flock back to the city eager to utilize public transit, etc. This will in effect cause two outcomes both intertwined: 1) Increased demand for housing close to public transit and 2) higher public transit ridership rates.

This dynamic will one day - as long as this paradigm shift exists - invariably lead to a need for an improved and expanded mass transit system. Understandably SEPTA will be reactive to this situation, however it'd be wonderful to see proactivity on this issue in the form of planning for additional lines, system changes, blah blah blah.

In addition, as I mentioned before on this thread, I believe an additional line would spur development along that particular corridor, in turn creating even more demand, ridership, etc.

Thoughts?

[theWatusi]

Originally Posted by pwp

In addition, as I mentioned before on this thread, I believe an additional line would spur development along that particular corridor, in turn creating even more demand, ridership, etc.

Thoughts?

If this was true, North Broad Street should be booming all the way up to Nedro Street. Aside from Temple, this is not the case at all.

[pwp]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

If this was true, North Broad Street should be booming all the way up to Nedro Street. Aside from Temple, this is not the case at all.

I agree to an extent but look at where the majority of development occurs in Philly, along Market, Broad and those areas immediately adjacent to them. Yes I understand they are the major arteries in the city, however they also happen to be situated above rapid transit.

Regarding North and South Broad, development can occur only at the speed at which the local economy will support. And it is developing along N. Board as well - just not at a rapid rate. If you notice, Temple almost now stretches the entire length between their main campus and the hospital/medical campus.

[volguus zildrohar]

SoundOfPhiladelphia, there are some tough old truths to your words. A lot of people resent newcomers in this city - gentrification brings its evils but...better that than withering on the vine.

It will take seismic shifts in public thinking and leadership and nothing else to get Philadelphia moving because this city has lived the way it's lived for so long. I think the current generation will have to reach old age before things really look and feel like they're finally working because progrss is a hard road to hoe under ideal circumstances. Here, in this city and state, mountains must be moved for even the simplest differences.

[Justin10000]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

SoundOfPhiladelphia, there are some tough old truths to your words. A lot of people resent newcomers in this city - gentrification brings its evils but...better that than withering on the vine.

It will take seismic shifts in public thinking and leadership and nothing else to get Philadelphia moving because this city has lived the way it's lived for so long. I think the current generation will have to reach old age before things really look and feel like they're finally working because progrss is a hard road to hoe under ideal circumstances. Here, in this city and state, mountains must be moved for even the simplest differences.

If progress is booting people out of their homes, just to "improve" an area, then there is problems.

[volguus zildrohar]

There's a strange balance to strike.

There's dying/stagnating tax bases versus people that are actually willing to occupy places their parents or grandparents abandoned 40 years ago. There are people who occupied neighborhoods and cities that white flight left for dead, who weathered everything race riots, crack and deindustrialization threw at them - people who chose to remain. And then there are the people who still live in such places because they haven't the means to live elsewhere and are often the type of people who require more from social services than they contribute in terms of taxes. This is devil's advocate time. Something, in some way, will have to give. It's ugly because it isn't entirely fair. Who does the market care about? Who do city governments care about?

[Don098]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Its named that because of the Credit River that runs near that road.

The reason I said to extend the subway to the malls is because it serves two of the regions major malls, and also covers a route that is covered by a 24 hour bus line. It also brings the subway to some of the most critical suburbs of the city in the region, and might help tie the region together.

Mike, I'm just curious. Have you ever been to Philadelphia?

[hammersklavier]

http://www.planphilly.com/node/7761

[SoundOfPhiladelphia]

Originally Posted by pwp

Regardless that these barriers exist today, at some point they'll need to be overcome as the City is changing and will - in my opinion - face an inevitable situation where an influx of new, young residents demand more transit options. America is obviously undergoing a paradigm shift with regard to the "green movement" as the younger generations flock back to the city eager to utilize public transit, etc. This will in effect cause two outcomes both intertwined: 1) Increased demand for housing close to public transit and 2) higher public transit ridership rates.

This dynamic will one day - as long as this paradigm shift exists - invariably lead to a need for an improved and expanded mass transit system. Understandably SEPTA will be reactive to this situation, however it'd be wonderful to see proactivity on this issue in the form of planning for additional lines, system changes, blah blah blah.

In addition, as I mentioned before on this thread, I believe an additional line would spur development along that particular corridor, in turn creating even more demand, ridership, etc.

Thoughts?

Subways, while awesome, do not create success and prosperity. People Do.

Philadelphia, as a city, has enormus potential. However, that potential will not be realized until the city genuinley faces it's social demons: (Greedy Unions, Handout mentality, Blatant yet unspoken racism (both Black and White), fear of the new and the different, Seeing ignorance as "authenticity", etc...)

Taxes, SEPTA, Crime, The schools, etc all emulate from the "Block" ideology. As long as my "Block" is okay, then the rest of the city can burn. No foresight.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

If this was true, North Broad Street should be booming all the way up to Nedro Street. Aside from Temple, this is not the case at all.

Regarding North Broad St, what do you exactly mean by "booming"??? Do you mean Starbucks should be on every main corner from Girard to Olney Aves??? Do you mean upscale boutiques should line every main shopping district on Broad St???

The stretch of North Broad from Girard to Cheltenham Aves has always been working to middle class. Nothing ritzy about it, except the mansions, some of it still lining North Broad St since it's heyday as Millionaires Row. Other than that, it was working to middle class since it was even mostly white.

Below Girard Ave, it's evolving into someting different , with the Met finally being renovated from the outside, condos popping out, infill taking place outside of the mile-long radius of Broad St, and all the anemities like restaurants, boutiques, galleries, and other specialty shops.

Temple University is a special case since from Cecil B moore to Susquehanna, then from Allegheny to Erie along Broad St, are building being built left and right for the use of Temple. Outside of Broad about a half a mile away is a different story, as it's mostly residential. This can be a mixed-income, diverse community rather than just a predominately black one. Also the houses that are planned to be built should blend within North Philly (read: rowhomes), and none of the detached, pre-fab crap that's popping left and right.

[kilbride102]

Originally Posted by pwp

Regardless that these barriers exist today, at some point they'll need to be overcome as the City is changing and will - in my opinion - face an inevitable situation where an influx of new, young residents demand more transit options. America is obviously undergoing a paradigm shift with regard to the "green movement" as the younger generations flock back to the city eager to utilize public transit, etc. This will in effect cause two outcomes both intertwined: 1) Increased demand for housing close to public transit and 2) higher public transit ridership rates.

I think that people overrate the "green movement" and youth "eager to utilize public transit". Once people start to get older and make more money these things will fall by the wayside. They will want bigger cars or god-forbid SUVs to take the kids to soccer practice or dance class. Will they want their kids to play in streets or in "safer suburban playgrounds"? When kids and family come into play, priorities change. Also they will realize just how much money is taken out of their paychecks in taxes and just how little they get in return. Will the idealism of late teens and early twenties continue when the realism of late twenties and thirties smacks them in the face? We will see.

[SoundOfPhiladelphia]

Originally Posted by kilbride102

I think that people overrate the "green movement" and youth "eager to utilize public transit". Once people start to get older and make more money these things will fall by the wayside. They will want bigger cars or god-forbid SUVs to take the kids to soccer practice or dance class. Will they want their kids to play in streets or in "safer suburban playgrounds"? When kids and family come into play, priorities change. Also they will realize just how much money is taken out of their paychecks in taxes and just how little they get in return. Will the idealism of late teens and early twenties continue when the realism of late twenties and thirties smacks them in the face? We will see.

I don't think people will care much about "green", but I do think that the social isolation the suburbs give off will not be seen as a positive as it was in the past. Manhattan is going through a massive upper-class baby boom and I don't think this is simply a short term anaminoly(sp).

The central part of cities (Inner Paris, Central London, Manhattan, The Loop, Westside LA, DC, Center City, etc...) will become hubs for upper-class parents who could possibly take back the school system. Philadelphia is trying to radiate out the CC gentry zone into the River Wards, West and South. I think this will continue to grow, but the current inhabitants will only push into more outer nabes (Like NW and NE), cuasing them to go into decline.

So I do think urban living will have more appeal, but the subrubs aren't going anywhere either. Those parents with money for private schools will move into the city, but the middle-working class will continue to pine for the outer reaches of Bucks and Chester Cos.

[theWatusi]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Regarding North Broad St, what do you exactly mean by "booming"??? Do you mean Starbucks should be on every main corner from Girard to Olney Aves??? Do you mean upscale boutiques should line every main shopping district on Broad St???

Well I was thinking of something other than abandoned buildings, chicken joints, and check cashing places. Aside from the blocks dominated by Temple, North Broad (above Spring Garden) is a shit hole.

[pwp]

Originally Posted by kilbride102

I think that people overrate the "green movement" and youth "eager to utilize public transit". Once people start to get older and make more money these things will fall by the wayside. They will want bigger cars or god-forbid SUVs to take the kids to soccer practice or dance class. Will they want their kids to play in streets or in "safer suburban playgrounds"? When kids and family come into play, priorities change. Also they will realize just how much money is taken out of their paychecks in taxes and just how little they get in return. Will the idealism of late teens and early twenties continue when the realism of late twenties and thirties smacks them in the face? We will see.

I think this will all depend on the local education system. If the schools shape up and prove to be a decent option for middle-class, young couples, then yes urbanism will be here to stay. IMO.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

Well I was thinking of something other than abandoned buildings, chicken joints, and check cashing places. Aside from the blocks dominated by Temple, North Broad (above Spring Garden) is a shit hole.

In my book, as long as the structure is intact (abandoned is OK, since it can be easily renovated), there's great potential. I'm not looking for North Philly (Tioga-Nicetown, Logan, Olney, West Oak Lane, Fern Rock, etc.) to be the "next big hip neighborhood"), nor am I looking for an expansion of Center City all the way into Lehigh Ave. I'm just looking for a stable, intact neighborhood. The businesses always reflect the clientele, which is why you see a lot of the chicken shacks and the check cashed places, but them again I also see a lot of the same places in South Philly, and parts of the NE, typical white hoods, so they don't bother me as much as seeing an empty lot of what used to be a very sturdy building or rowhome turned into rubble!!! Things need to change for the better!!!

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by theWatusi

Well I was thinking of something other than abandoned buildings, chicken joints, and check cashing places. Aside from the blocks dominated by Temple, North Broad (above Spring Garden) is a shit hole.

North Broad Street has its fair share of such establishments but it actually wouldn't make my list of 'places not to be ever'. North of Allegheny, particularly, it's mainly stable working class and North of Olney, Broad Street has changed very little physcially from the time it was a Jewish enclave. Also, North Broad happens to be among the longest retail corridors in the city which, while not glamorous, is there and has kept the stretch from devolving completely. I'd say the worst pockets are at Girard and Erie Avenues. Otherwise, it really isn't that bad.

[SoundOfPhiladelphia]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

North Broad Street has its fair share of such establishments but it actually wouldn't make my list of 'places not to be ever'. North of Allegheny, particularly, it's mainly stable working class and North of Olney, Broad Street has changed very little physcially from the time it was a Jewish enclave. Also, North Broad happens to be among the longest retail corridors in the city which, while not glamorous, is there and has kept the stretch from devolving completely. I'd say the worst pockets are at Girard and Erie Avenues. Otherwise, it really isn't that bad.

Same could be said for Kensington Ave (Frankford El). In most cities, it's not the main drag through a hood that falls farthest, but the pocket blocks and side streets that make an area the hood.

Broad itself may not be a total wash, but many of those sidestreets are, and give the whole of North Philly the ambiance it has. Upper North Philly may be somewhat more decent than lower North, but to standard American definitions it isn't middle class or prosperous. Cheltanham Ave isn't a pleseant place to be after 7-8pm most nights and the area around Broad/Olney subway doesn't give off any less of the "vibe" other stops south of there do.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

North Broad Street has its fair share of such establishments but it actually wouldn't make my list of 'places not to be ever'. North of Allegheny, particularly, it's mainly stable working class and North of Olney, Broad Street has changed very little physcially from the time it was a Jewish enclave. Also, North Broad happens to be among the longest retail corridors in the city which, while not glamorous, is there and has kept the stretch from devolving completely. I'd say the worst pockets are at Girard and Erie Avenues. Otherwise, it really isn't that bad.

I think Girard Ave in North Philly, from Fishtown to the zoo looks good, even with a few empty lots here and there, but past the zoo in North Philly, it looks horrible, especially between 48th and 52nd St. Even after 52nd St, most of the rowhomes look worn down and not maintained. Personally, in a few years, Parkside will become gentrified because I don't see how those buildings on Parkside Ave can go to waste. Just put some replica infills on the lots, and it will come back!!!

Most of Erie Ave is pretty stable from Kensington Ave to the tracks on Old York Rd. Like Girard Ave, a few lots between 5th and Old York, but I believe that the Hispanic community made it stable. but past the tracks, it's a damn shame!!! Huge lots, and when you go past Broad St, it get's worse. It's not really the lots and some of the abandoned buildings that get to me, but the pre-fab crap they're currently building, and they're too damn small at that. WTF would want to live there??? And look at what it's replacing??? Some of the grandest rows the city has!!! Check out the 1300 block of Hunting Park Ave. And this is near Temple Hospital. The city needs to spend more money renovating abandoned buildings and similaar looking infill rather than fund this Section 8 crap. I know this has nothing to do with transit, but just wanted to add my two cents.

[hammersklavier]

Your geography is confusing Wanderer...
1. Parkside is in West Philadelphia (all the parts of Philadelphia west of the Schuylkill River are called "West Philly").
2. By the sounds of it, you're describing a westward trip down Erie away from the Hispanic neighborhoods, but if you are, you do realize that Broad St. comes first and then the tracks? BTW, the massive-scale lots you're describing, esp. if they're concentrated near the train tracks (and IIRC the CSX line follows Erie for a time west of the SEPTA bridge) would most likely be abandoned industrial lots. Looking west from said SEPTA bridge I can see several gargantuan abandoned warehouses just begging for conversion...

[hammersklavier]

The Reading Extension study's out! Yipee!

http://planning.montcopa.org/plannin...a21fcb1506.pdf