Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[someone123]

A lot of Canadians (maybe a plurality of those who consider themselves to be on the political left?) simultaneously hold these two sets of beliefs:

1) It was a tragedy that indigenous groups had their culture and language partially stripped away by residential schools, laws banning traditional ceremonies, etc. Today they should bring back their culture and language and have self-determination including control over territories and who does or doesn't live there.

2) Quebec laws and policies that try to promote French or preserve the local culture disadvantage newcomers or betray underlying racist sentiments and it would be better if they didn't exist. People in Montreal or maybe elsewhere in Quebec should have no reservations about people immigrating there from elsewhere and speaking whatever language they want. If French is replaced by English, well, that's just how it goes sometimes.

I think both are partially reasonable but need some nuance in order to be coherent and self-consistent. I tend to be OK with the idea that in well-governed societies, people may decide what they want their lifestyle to be like collectively, and this might sometimes involve preserving language and culture.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

2) Quebec laws and policies that try to promote French or preserve the local culture disadvantage newcomers or betray underlying racist sentiments and it would be better if they didn't exist. People in Montreal or maybe elsewhere in Quebec should have no reservations about people immigrating there from elsewhere and speaking whatever language they want. If French is replaced by .

And Quebecers feel the right to do pretty much whatever they want because if we were an independent country, presumably it would not be necessary.

So it's the price to pay for staying/keeping us in the country.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know Simu Liu but Ian Hanomansing is totally Canadian. It would frankly be hard to argue the contrary.

The only people who wouldn't consider Ian Hanomansing to be "totally Canadian" are card-carrying racists. Same for anyone who doesn't consider Karim Ouellet, Akena Lohamba Okoko (aka KNLO) and Dr. Joanne Liu to be Québécois.

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah but the real distinction that matters isn't whether someone is Montreal-born or not, it's whether they're Québécois or Anglo.

If Quebec were to separate I could see it becoming a majority English speaking Nation within 100 years. Yet the English speaking Québécois would never be considered Anglos!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

If Quebec were to separate I could see it becoming a majority English speaking Nation within 100 years.

Anything is possible I suppose, but can we try to keep this serious? Please?

[MolsonExport]

Are you seriously suggesting that all francophones in Quebec don't complain about the Canadian status quo or about their 'ownership' (whatever that means) of the term?
(but apparently Anglos do?) How noble of them. I wish I could be as secure in my identity as Acajack, who speaks for 'the people' of Quebec. I cannot, because I am anglo and I am thus biologically incapable of being Quebecois (because I am (a) not Francophone (even if I may speak the language), and/or (b) apparently I don't want to be, as told to me by someone who thinks they speak for their province more than I ever could).

Blood and soil nationalism, in other words

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Are you seriously suggesting that all francophones in Quebec don't complain about the Canadian status quo or about their 'ownership' (whatever that means) of the term?
but apparently Anglos do? How noble of them. I wish I could be as secure in my identity as Acajack, who speaks for 'the people' of Quebec.

What I am saying is that many (most? a strong majority of?) francophone Québécois have written off CanadiAn as an identity marker inasmuch as it's related to and defined by Canada as a whole, and something that refers to them.

That's why the media still says stuff like "les Québécois et les Canadiens", "le Québec et le Canada", "au Québec et au Canada" here. Even among people who are federalists there is a sense of apartness vis-à-vis the rest of Canada.

This is not an obscure notion BTW. And it's not new from 2020 (I mean, franchement) and was certainly not invented by me.

Anglo-Quebecers are much more likely to make a claim that "we're Quebecers/Québécois too!" and to feel that as a sore point.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Are you seriously suggesting that all francophones in Quebec don't complain about the Canadian status quo or about their 'ownership' (whatever that means) of the term?
(but apparently Anglos do?) How noble of them. I wish I could be as secure in my identity as Acajack, who speaks for 'the people' of Quebec. I cannot, because I am anglo and I am thus biologically incapable of being Quebecois (because I am (a) not Francophone (even if I may speak the language), and/or (b) apparently I don't want to be, as told to me by someone who thinks they speak for their province more than I ever could).

Blood and soil nationalism, in other words

I believe I have it on good authority that Acajack doesn't speak for the people of Quebec; he just describes it the way it really is.

[MolsonExport]

Survey suggests Quebecers' love for Canada surging during COVID crisis

I'm sure you will dismiss the article as it is from the Gazoo (albeit penned by someone with a francophone name)

Léger Poll: Eighty Per Cent of Quebecers are proud to be Canadian

I will accept, and even advocate, that the majority of Québécois identify first and foremost with their nation (Province). But most also identify with being Canadian, and feel a strong sense of pride with their Canadian citizenship, no matter how you want to sidestep the issue.

Before anyone throws the "you left Quebec" dart my way (I am sure it is coming), bear in mind that in Academia, there may be 2-3 postings for a tenure-track position in a given domain in Canada, per year. And I had to think about my wife's career aspirations, which of course would be hampered by the fact that she does not have nearly as good a command of French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Survey suggests Quebecers' love for Canada surging during COVID crisis

I'm sure you will dismiss the article as it is from the Gazoo (albeit penned by someone with a francophone name)

Léger Poll: Eighty Per Cent of Quebecers are proud to be Canadian

I will accept, and even advocate, that the majority of Québécois identify first and foremost with their nation (Province). But most also identify with being Canadian, and feel a strong sense of pride with their Canadian citizenship, no matter how you want to sidestep the issue.

This is not inconsistent with what I said. They identify as Canadian and think they are part of Canada. It's just that their conception of what that means often differs from the one that prevails across most of Canada.

Similarly, Quebec is the most "Canadian" ("Canadien" would be more accurate) in terms of reported ethnic origin on the census. That's obviously because many Québécois consider themselves to be the original "Canadiens".

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is not inconsistent with what I said. They identify as Canadian and think they are part of Canada. It's just that their conception of what that means often differs from the one that prevails across most of Canada.

Similarly, Quebec is the most "Canadian" ("Canadien" would be more accurate) in terms of reported ethnic origin on the census. That's obviously because many Québécois consider themselves to be the original "Canadiens".

In Quebec French, "Canadian" can be used as a term of disparagement, no? Sort of like "Uncle Tom" in U.S. English.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

In Quebec French, "Canadian" can be used as a term of disparagement, no? Sort of like "Uncle Tom" in U.S. English.

That type of stigma probably exists to some extent in all provinces except Ontario. Quebec is obviously the champion in that regard, but pretty well every other province has that going on to varying degrees (NL, NS, BC on the higher end of the scale, MB, NB on the lower end).

I mean, you see it all the time in this forum with the pro Newfoundland, or the pro Cascadia or the pro Alberta or the pro Maritimes posts. It's a weird love/hate dynamic where we all like to make it known that our province is a great nation in waiting held back from the world stage by the boring joyless nerds called Canada. It's practically a cliche at this point.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

That type of stigma probably exists to some extent in all provinces except Ontario. Quebec is obviously the champion in that regard, but pretty well every other province has that going on to varying degrees (NL, NS, BC on the higher end of the scale, MB, NB on the lower end).

I mean, you see it all the time in this forum with the pro Newfoundland, or the pro Cascadia or the pro Alberta or the pro Maritimes posts. It's a weird love/hate dynamic where we all like to make it known that our province is a great nation in waiting held back from the world stage by the boring joyless nerds called Canada. It's practically a cliche at this point.

I maintain we should change the motto of this country from "A Mari usque ad Mare" to "We got fucked: Canada, A People's History".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

That type of stigma probably exists to some extent in all provinces except Ontario. Quebec is obviously the champion in that regard, but pretty well every other province has that going on to varying degrees (NL, NS, BC on the higher end of the scale, MB, NB on the lower end).

I mean, you see it all the time in this forum with the pro Newfoundland, or the pro Cascadia or the pro Alberta or the pro Maritimes posts. It's a weird love/hate dynamic where we all like to make it known that our province is a great nation in waiting held back from the world stage by the boring joyless nerds called Canada. It's practically a cliche at this point.

I have to say I have travelled all across the country for work and pleasure, lived in multiple provinces, and exchanged with Canadians of all stripes, and the only places I've heard people talk about "Canadian(s)" negatively and as if it was a moniker that didn't apply to them were Quebec and Newfoundland.

While there are frustrations with the federal government in many regions the lightning rod names are usually "the feds", "Ottawa" or the "Government of Canada".

"Canada" as an entity seems above all that.

It probably even sounds weird within the #wexit crowd to talk about "Canadians" as if was some other group that they aren't a part of.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

I mean, you see it all the time in this forum with the pro Newfoundland, or the pro Cascadia or the pro Alberta or the pro Maritimes posts. It's a weird love/hate dynamic where we all like to make it known that our province is a great nation in waiting held back from the world stage by the boring joyless nerds called Canada. It's practically a cliche at this point.

I don't really get this sense for Atlantic stuff. It is perceived as an underdog region and people there correctly see that local issues are not necessarily top of mind in Ottawa or Toronto. Sometimes obvious local problems go unaddressed because the decision-making powers are elsewhere (e.g. feds ignoring Mi'kmaq fishing rights for 20+ years or whatever it was), and so there's a natural question of self-determination or federal attention. People in the Atlantic region are very aware that the attention budget from Ottawa will never be large.

Usually when I post some positive thing about the region I am trying to correct what I see as a misperception, usually that this little-known region is much worse than it actually is and much worse than other places. Most of the time I don't bother; I just let it slide if somebody says a CFL stadium in Halifax would be a federally funded make-work project there (even though the economy is no worse than the Canadian average and there's no federal funding on the table), or NS is some kind of backwater compared to SK, or the Maritimes get hit by 30 cm of snow every 2 days from November to April. If you do respond to claims like this, usually you get "oh look at you, trying to tell us about some kind of imaginary boomtown paradise!". It is hard to avoid this type of extreme framing. It does not really matter much but I would distinguish between posts meant to give an unrealistically rosy impression of a place and those that merely correct extremely negative takes.

Nobody in NS or NL thinks these provinces are or were rivals of Ontario and St. John's should have been like Toronto or anything like that. It is mostly Ontarians or Albertans projecting while Atlantic Canadians, instead of having delusions of empire, simply wanted to stop the outmigration and economic decline in past decades. Most of the people in these regions just want a good quality of life where they are. A lot of people in Atlantic Canada also don't even want a stampede of migration from places like Ontario. Zero growth types are actually a pretty substantial political faction there.

Quebec is somewhat different. Montreal was the most important city in the country not long ago, and Quebec is used to being a perennial top factor if not the top factor in federal politics.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

In Quebec French, "Canadian" can be used as a term of disparagement, no? Sort of like "Uncle Tom" in U.S. English.

Yes. Noticeably by deliberately saying the word "Canadian" in English when speaking in French.

As in: "Pierre est très CanadiAn."

That's extremely unlikely to be complimentary.

The French word "Canadien" is not really used that way, though.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The French word "Canadien" is not really used that way, though.

Doesn't it have the same eye-roll factor as hyphenated last names?

[MolsonExport]

Do you think I don't know this? It does contradict what you stated in the previous post.

What I am saying is that many (most? a strong majority of?) francophone Québécois have written off CanadiAn as an identity marker inasmuch as it's related to and defined by Canada as a whole, and something that refers to them.

The statistics do not bear out your interpretation. Please stop acting like you have a monopoly on the answers about Quebec.

[dleung]

Liojack: They may steal the election from our Trump, but they'll never take away our nationalism!!!!

I know.. it's been a tough few weeks for you two

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

Liojack: They may steal the election from our Trump, but they'll never take away our nationalism!!!!

I know.. it's been a tough few weeks for you two

"I don't like you so you must be in favour of X, Y and Z which are odious."

Quite possibly the lowest form of debate possible.