Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Interesting and makes sens. Did you ask Chat GPT to explain why we don't have a Federal Territory?

[New Brisavoine]

I wonder what sort of explanation Chat GPT would come up to... Especially the French version of Chat GPT!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Funny enough, there's a lot of anglophones in Ottawa who would probably like the idea of a federal district. There's a strong sense that the Ontario government is too Toronto-centric and doesn't pay enough attention to Ottawa's needs.

There would be downsides for sure but assuming we'd get a very strong mayor and we'd hive off the hinterlands but be allowed to do thinks like impose taxes on their commuting into the district it's on balance it's positive for residents of Ottawa whatever their language. Sure there might be more bilingualism as we absorded Hull but I don't see that as a huge inconvience. I guess if I was a unilingual cop or other city employee I might see it differently.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Funny enough, there's a lot of anglophones in Ottawa who would probably like the idea of a federal district. There's a strong sense that the Ontario government is too Toronto-centric and doesn't pay enough attention to Ottawa's needs.

This is definitely what I observe as well. It's always people from Ottawa who bring it up with us Gatinois and say to us that the federal district would "free" both cities from the neglect of our respective provinces. (And it's definitely true that Gatineau also feels neglected by its provincial government.)

But even so few people I know in Gatineau feel like they want to be "freed" from Quebec, as the majority still have a fairly strong Québécois identity. Blood is thicker than water, after all. (The truth is most Gatinois feel both Québécois and Canadian and don't want to have to choose between the two.)

The exception being of course those Gatinois who aren't really Gatinois or Québécois to begin with and really are Ottawans who just live because it's cheaper. But these people aren't even 20% of the overall population.

Now Ottawa francophones are also very strongly in favour of a federal district, because the francophone population share would go from about 15% today (in Ottawa) to around 35% in the new federal district. So they'd expect a boost in French services and political weight, of course.

For us francophone Gatinois though, the math isn't as interesting as we'd drop from around 85% to 35%.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Lousy excuse. Virginia refused to cede the territory it was supposed to cede (Arlington and environs) to form the District of Columbia, yet that didn't stop the union from creating the District of Columbia out of just the Maryland part of it. Surely the federal government of Canada could have done the same if they had wanted to, i.e. just create a federal district out of Ontario territory only.

I think the more likely explanation is, the federal government being dominated by the Anglophones, they have no problem with the federal capital being located in an Anglophone province. Those who would have had the most interest in a federal district distinct from an Anglophone province, i.e. the Québécois, were either too weak within the federation (before 1960) to ask for anything, or not really interested in Canada anymore (after 1960) to ask for it.

The Virginia portion was part of D.C. for over 50 years before the USA ceded it back to Virginia in 1847.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Sure there might be more bilingualism as we absorded Hull but I don't see that as a huge inconvience.

Québec would never accept ceding Gatineau (or even just Hull), as already explained by Acajack. Even a PLQ government would refuse it, as that would kill their popularity in Québec if they accepted to cede some Québec territory.

A federal district could be created only from the current city of Ottawa in Ontario, but obviously this is not going to happen as neither the Anglophones nor even the Francophones really want it, for different reasons.

[Acajack]

Another reason many Gatinois are skeptical of the plan is they know how things work with bilingualism in a) the City of Ottawa and b) the federal government, so they don't really believe that a federal district would guarantee we'd get cops, firefighters, parademics, bus drivers, etc. who speak French here on this side of the river. Whereas today of course they all do.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The Virginia portion was part of D.C. for over 50 years before the USA ceded it back to Virginia in 1847.

Ok, take the Australian Capital Territory then. Created solely out of NSW territory. NSW didn't ask for Victoria to also cede territory in order to cede part of its territory to form the ACT.

Same in Mexico by the way. The federal district was formed solely from territory taken out of Mexico State. The neighboring Morelos State wasn't asked to also cede territory.

[MolsonExport]

If land were carved out from Ontario, and not from Quebec (despite straddling the Ottawa River), then I suspect that there would be a sharp reduction of major federal departments (or a sharp reduction thereof) housed in Gatineau across the river.

In any event, it is not going to happen (Federal district), so why bother speculating?

[Acajack]

PQ are polling a lot higher with young people than I would have expected. I thought they were dead to this generation and basically a Boomer and Gen Xer party.

https://x.com/okio3/status/1832846904671305788/photo/1

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is definitely what I observe as well. It's always people from Ottawa who bring it up with us Gatinois and say to us that the federal district would "free" both cities from the neglect of our respective provinces. (And it's definitely true that Gatineau also feels neglected by its provincial government.)

But even so few people I know in Gatineau feel like they want to be "freed" from Quebec, as the majority still have a fairly strong Québécois identity. Blood is thicker than water, after all. (The truth is most Gatinois feel both Québécois and Canadian and don't want to have to choose between the two.)

"Ontario identity" doesn't really exist. To the vast majority of Ontarians, "Ontario" is nothing more than an administrative entity. So the idea of cutting up Ontario or having their home community leave it isn't out of question to them. Quebec is not like that.

[YOWetal]

[QUOTE=MolsonExport;10280128]If land were carved out from Ontario, and not from Quebec (despite straddling the Ottawa River), then I suspect that there would be a sharp reduction of major federal departments (or a sharp reduction thereof) housed in Gatineau across the river.

In any event, it is not going to happen (Federal district), so why bother speculating?[/QUOTE]

Point taken but you could say that about a lot of debate topics here.

If it makes sense it makes sense. There are good reasons against it as Acajck has said. The never seeding territory thing seems weird though I guess any precedent that Quebec's borders are vioable (is that a word anyway not invioble ) and potentially very dangerous. I think conflict over parts wanting to leave a soverign terriotry are likely anyway but Quebec nationalists live in denial they can control indigenous and English claims for seperation from Quebec.

[Architype]

[QUOTE=YOWetal;10280338]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

If land were carved out from Ontario, and not from Quebec (despite straddling the Ottawa River), then I suspect that there would be a sharp reduction of major federal departments (or a sharp reduction thereof) housed in Gatineau across the river.

In any event, it is not going to happen (Federal district), so why bother speculating?[/QUOTE]

Point taken but you could say that about a lot of debate topics here.

If it makes sense it makes sense. There are good reasons against it as Acajck has said. The never seeding territory thing seems weird though I guess any precedent that Quebec's borders are vioable (is that a word anyway not invioble ) and potentially very dangerous. I think conflict over parts wanting to leave a soverign terriotry are likely anyway but Quebec nationalists live in denial they can control indigenous and English claims for seperation from Quebec.

Quebec thinks it's okay to take territory from another province, or country, if it could, but to not give it up for any reason. That's a double standard, Quebec exceptionalism.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Architype

Quebec thinks it's okay to take territory from another province, or country, if it could, but to not give it up for any reason. That's a double standard, Quebec exceptionalism.

Maybe so, maybe not. It is more akin to New Brisavoinian logic.

[FrAnKs]

^ In case of a new Federal district, would Ontario's population drop (-1.1M) be a concern too?
It literally is like loosing an entire Nova Scotia or Saskatchewan...

[Acajack]

[QUOTE=Architype;10280352]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Quebec thinks it's okay to take territory from another province, or country, if it could, but to not give it up for any reason. That's a double standard, Quebec exceptionalism.

What is this based on, exactly? I can't think of anything except maybe for the Labrador border dispute. Which was actually a case where something was previously part of Quebec, and was then taken away from it by the Privy Council of London, which was in fact "judge and party" to the legal case. (Newfoundland, which was given the territory as a result of the 1927 judgement, was part of the UK at the time.)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

PQ are polling a lot higher with young people than I would have expected. I thought they were dead to this generation and basically a Boomer and Gen Xer party.

https://x.com/okio3/status/1832846904671305788/photo/1

Yeah, but then the argument goes like "people vote for them, but that doesn't mean they support independence". A bit like voting for the Communists but not actually supporting a Communist revolution I suppose.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Architype

Quebec thinks it's okay to take territory from another province, or country, if it could, but to not give it up for any reason. That's a double standard, Quebec exceptionalism.

Québec has never claimed the Francophone parts of New Brunswick and Ontario, not even the most hardcore PQ members from what I know. Contrast this with the Flemish nationalists in power (not some fringe party) who claimed the Dutch-speaking part of the Francophone province of Liège, and got it (in exchange for not wrecking Belgium). See the Fourons Affair for more.

[Ozabald]

[QUOTE=Acajack;10280457]

Originally Posted by Architype

What is this based on, exactly? I can't think of anything except maybe for the Labrador border dispute. Which was actually a case where something was previously part of Quebec, and was then taken away from it by the Privy Council of London, which was in fact "judge and party" to the legal case. (Newfoundland, which was given the territory as a result of the 1927 judgement, was part of the UK at the time.)

Incorrect. Newfoundland was not part of the UK at the time of the Labrador boundary dispute. It was an independent Dominion just as Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa were at the time.

[Acajack]

[QUOTE=Ozabald;10280511]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Incorrect. Newfoundland was not part of the UK at the time of the Labrador boundary dispute. It was an independent Dominion just as Australia, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa were at the time.

Wasn't it? It flipped status a few times did it not?