Federal Government & Politics II

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Hecate

The mass graves thing was a lie though. It was a sick lie. They found anomalies and lied. They came out with guns blazing that these were graves. that lie lead to destruction of public property across Canada, and over 70 churches being burned and vandalized. Those people should be in jail. They caused international embarrassment to the country and their people. They did more damage than any convoy did and it was all reaction based on a lie.

Harsh. There may be unmarked graves (tbc). Whether any are "mass" is unknown but unlikely. Whether the graves were ever marked seems not fully understood (photo records suggest wooden crosses at least in some cases) Also unknown, it seems, is whether the graves are anonymous or whether proper records exist.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Harsh. There may be unmarked graves (tbc). Whether any are "mass" is unknown but unlikely. Whether the graves were ever marked seems not fully understood (photo records suggest wooden crosses at least in some cases) Also unknown, it seems, is whether the graves are anonymous or whether proper records exist.

This is a pretty good summary. Of course they are purposelly being misleading to make the public have connotations of genocide. Hoping to build consensus for reconcilation which really means more money. Essentially reparations for our original sin. Prior to the Truch and Reconcialtion commission they had a mixed legacy. Here is a article as recent as 2008 with people celebrating their residential school education:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north...ience-1.742296

The talk of being a second or even third generation residential school survivor is the furthest thing from helpful.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by lio45

For me (and plenty of others I’m sure), the answer to his question is “in real life, no, never, but on SSP, yes, many times”.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Exactly. Mass grave might have been the wrong word, but there are many children buried in unmarked graves at residential school sites.

That’s not uncommon in recent European history, it is not exclusive to residential schools:

796 orphans buried in mass grave near Catholic orphanage: historian
Orphanage’s septic tank was converted to serve as body disposal site
The Associated Press
Posted: June 03, 2014

The Catholic Church in Ireland is facing fresh accusations of child neglect after a researcher found records for 796 young children believed to be buried in a mass grave beside a former orphanage for the children of unwed mothers.

The researcher, Catherine Corless, says her discovery of child death records at the Catholic nun-run home in Tuam, County Galway, suggests that a former septic tank filled with bones is the final resting place for most, if not all, of the children.

As It Happens | Irish adoption rights advocate says deaths were preventable
Church leaders in Galway, western Ireland, said they had no idea so many children who died at the orphanage had been buried there, and said they would support local efforts to mark the spot with a plaque listing all 796 children.….

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.2663895

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You don't believe there are any mass graves at residential school sites?

It has nothing to do whether anyone believes it or not, but rather what the media (and other interested parties) want the message to be.

The Tk’emlúps states that anomolies were found, not mass graves:

On May 27, 2021, it was with a heavy heart that Tk̓emlúps te Secwépemc confirmed an unthinkable loss that was spoken about but never documented by the Kamloops Indian Residential School. With the help of a ground penetrating radar specialist, the stark truth of the preliminary findings came to light — the confirmation of 215 anomalies were detected.

LINK

While absence of proof, is NOT proof of absence, I am not aware of a single grave that has been found at any residential school in Canada. Can you provide a link??

I'm not a denier and am very well aware of residential schools and their impact on our society, but let's focus on teh bad things that we know happened rather than making shit like "mass graves" up.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Exactly. Mass grave might have been the wrong word, but there are many children buried in unmarked graves at residential school sites.

You are aware that from 1969 to 1997, DIA comanaged the remaining residential schools with local reserves. You would think that if there were "many children buried" there, that they would have known as they had access to the records.

Again, we have enough evidence of things that happened at these schools to give us real things to address, so we don't have to make things up with no proof.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by shreddog

It has nothing to do whether anyone believes it or not, but rather what the media (and other interested parties) want the message to be.

The Tk’emlúps states that anomolies were found, not mass graves:
LINK

While absence of proof, is NOT proof of absence, I am not aware of a single grave that has been found at any residential school in Canada. Can you provide a link??

I'm not a denier and am very well aware of residential schools and their impact on our society, but let's focus on teh bad things that we know happened rather than making shit like "mass graves" up.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there has (yet?) been an excavation or exhumation at any of the anomolies.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I could be wrong, but I don't think there has (yet?) been an excavation or exhumation at any of the anomolies.

Pine Creek

A Manitoba First Nation is weighing next steps in its search of a former residential school site after no human remains were found during the excavation of a Catholic church basement.

Minegoziibe Anishinabe, also known as Pine Creek First Nation, excavated 14 anomalies found in the basement of Our Lady of Seven Sorrows Catholic Church, which were first detected using ground-penetrating radar.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by shreddog

While absence of proof, is NOT proof of absence, I am not aware of a single grave that has been found at any residential school in Canada. Can you provide a link??

A First Nation in Alberta says new archival work has helped explain numerous discoveries of human remains that it now believes are the unmarked graves of residential school students.

Saddle Lake Cree Nation revealed on Tuesday that since 2004, there have been numerous discoveries of partial remains that were accidentally excavated while new graves were being dug in the community's cemetery, which is near the former Blue Quills residential school site.

While community members who discovered the remains were at the time unsure about what they found and reburied them, a team tasked with investigating burial sites connected to the school now believes it's been uncovering the shallow, unmarked graves of children between the ages of four and 10 who perished at the school.

In 2004, the community discovered what it believes to be a mass grave.

"The mass grave had numerous children-sized skeletons wrapped in white cloth. This could possibly be from when there was an outbreak of typhoid fever in the school," Whiskeyjack said.

[source]

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

[source]

I was genuinely not sure which side you are on with this example. There were bodies in the cemetary and some children buried in cloth during a thyphoid epidemic? This is proof they weren't mass graves as this is clearly harmless. Or proof there are children buried near schools without headstones which I guess qualify as unmarked graves. I guess this is true of every 19th cemetary in the country so the word is now meanigless.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I was genuinely not sure which side you are on with this example. There were bodies in the cemetary and some children buried in cloth during a thyphoid epidemic? This is proof they weren't mass graves as this is clearly harmless. Or proof there are children buried near schools without headstones which I guess qualify as unmarked graves. I guess this is true of every 19th cemetary in the country so the word is now meanigless.

It's a response to the "I am not aware of a single grave that has been found at any residential school in Canada" statement. They've found unmarked graves near the former Blue Quills residential school site, and they've found what they believe to be a mass grave.

I'm not on any "side", other than maybe the truth's side. It's likely true that none of the anomalies that different bands have found have been exhumed or have had bodies discovered in them, but it's also likely true that unmarked graves of residential school children have been found, and that there has been at least one mass grave found.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

It's a response to the "I am not aware of a single grave that has been found at any residential school in Canada" statement. They've found unmarked graves near the former Blue Quills residential school site, and they've found what they believe to be a mass grave.

I'm not on any "side", other than maybe the truth's side. It's likely true that none of the anomalies that different bands have found have been exhumed or have had bodies discovered in them, but it's also likely true that unmarked graves of residential school children have been found, and that there has been at least one mass grave found.

I guess we are splitting hairs. Obviously there were cemetetaries at any residential school. They obviously wouldn't have stone gravestones. So yes they are no longer marked. That is not what's meant by unmarked graves. That's not newsworthy. Were flags half mast because they used wood crosses instead of stone ?

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I guess we are splitting hairs. Obviously there were cemetetaries at any residential school. They obviously wouldn't have stone gravestones. So yes they are no longer marked. That is not what's meant by unmarked graves. That's not newsworthy. Were flags half mast because they used wood crosses instead of stone ?

What? A grave that doesn't have a marker isn't an unmarked grave? I'm trying to understand what you mean by that -- what is an unmarked grave?

"Obviously there were cemetaries at any residential school" -- yes, but the whole point is that kids who were taken from their families and died at residential schools were buried in graves that weren't marked and weren't recorded, leaving their families to not know where their children's bodies were actually buried. That's kind of the whole point behind this. It's not about splitting hairs, it's about the truth that children were taken from their families, sent to residential schools, and then effectively disappeared if they died.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

What? A grave that doesn't have a marker isn't an unmarked grave? I'm trying to understand what you mean by that -- what is an unmarked grave?

"Obviously there were cemetaries at any residential school" -- yes, but the whole point is that kids who were taken from their families and died at residential schools were buried in graves that weren't marked and weren't recorded, leaving their families to not know where their children's bodies were actually buried. That's kind of the whole point behind this. It's not about splitting hairs, it's about the truth that children were taken from their families, sent to residential schools, and then effectively disappeared if they died.

OK I will be more clear. There is no evidence they weren't marked, weren't recorded any more than was typical at the time. An abandoned cemetary is not an unmarked mass grave and you know that. As do the people talking about ground penetrating radar.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Harsh. There may be unmarked graves (tbc). Whether any are "mass" is unknown but unlikely. Whether the graves were ever marked seems not fully understood (photo records suggest wooden crosses at least in some cases) Also unknown, it seems, is whether the graves are anonymous or whether proper records exist.

Here in Nova Scotia a graveyard was found on Native lands. The problem for the victim industries is that they were Irish graves. The subject soon dried up and blew away here.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

What? A grave that doesn't have a marker isn't an unmarked grave? I'm trying to understand what you mean by that -- what is an unmarked grave?

"Obviously there were cemetaries at any residential school" -- yes, but the whole point is that kids who were taken from their families and died at residential schools were buried in graves that weren't marked and weren't recorded, leaving their families to not know where their children's bodies were actually buried. That's kind of the whole point behind this. It's not about splitting hairs, it's about the truth that children were taken from their families, sent to residential schools, and then effectively disappeared if they died.

I think the problem is that we were told (and continue to be told, probably by people that stand to make money, either from the government or by selling Every Child Matters shirts and flags) that these kids were taken and murdered at these schools. That this was a national embarrassment and tragedy that we should be ashamed about, and that Canada Day should be cancelled. And then boom, silence. If there were followups to any of this, they were in the "in other news.." sections of the news websites, certainly not big headlines. Others on here, certainly smarter than me, have given legitimate reasons those gravesites could exist or why they are unmarked today a century later. So maybe the reaction that the mere existence of those graves should assume genocide was probably a little kneejerk.

[casper]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

OK I will be more clear. There is no evidence they weren't marked, weren't recorded any more than was typical at the time. An abandoned cemetary is not an unmarked mass grave and you know that. As do the people talking about ground penetrating radar.

Does it make a difference?

The intention of the government was to eradicate a culture and a social structure used by indigenous communities. Those in authority did not understand indigenous customs. They expected people to live in family units, use the English/French language, pray before going to be bed and on Sunday. To that end they ended up taking kids away from their parents and placed them in residential schools.

Did some run away and were eaten by bears and wolves in the forest? Did they die in the school and were put to rest in graves near the school? Were some abused?

It was all still wrong.

Perhaps the people running these school though they were doing good. Looking at from modern days standards, it was still wrong.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by casper

Does it make a difference?

The intention of the government was to eradicate a culture and a social structure used by indigenous communities. Those in authority did not understand indigenous customs. They expected people to live in family units, use the English/French language, pray before going to be bed and on Sunday. To that end they ended up taking kids away from their parents and placed them in residential schools.

Did some run away and were eaten by bears and wolves in the forest? Did they die in the school and were put to rest in graves near the school? Were some abused?

It was all still wrong.

Perhaps the people running these school though they were doing good. Looking at from modern days standards, it was still wrong.

Yes, 19th century understandings of culture were deeply misguided. Yes, 19th century schools (indigenous and otherwise) had a level of brutality and cruelty we find unfathomable today. But trying to hype up common 19th century burial practices as mass graves or trying to insinuate there was some sort of massacres does not help anything.

Canadian cities are full of unmarked graves. Many public parks were former cemeteries. Should we be scouring our cities with ground-penetrating radar looking for bones? Should we dig up public parks?

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Yes, 19th century understandings of culture were deeply misguided. Yes, 19th century schools (indigenous and otherwise) had a level of brutality and cruelty we find unfathomable today. But trying to hype up common 19th century burial practices as mass graves or trying to insinuate there was some sort of massacres does not help anything.

The schools ran through to the late 1980s (the last one closed in 1997), and their numbers peaked in the late 1960s. Don't try to brush them off as "19th century schools", they were around for the vast majority of the 20th century. The Sixties Scoop isn't from the 1860s, it's from the 1960s.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

The schools ran through to the late 1980s (the last one closed in 1997), and their numbers peaked in the late 1960s. Don't try to brush them off as "19th century schools", they were around for the vast majority of the 20th century. The Sixties Scoop isn't from the 1860s, it's from the 1960s.

The unmarked graves people are talking about are from the 19th century.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are way more who aren't extreme for sure, as only a small minority truly have extreme views.

Though I wouldn't say that most or even many aren't religious. To be Muslim in 2024 is to be fairly religious. If you're not, you're not Muslim. It's not like being Catholic in 2024.

In almost any religion the extremists will not consider less religious people to be part of that religion. And a fair number of the religious spokespeople give an inaccurate portrayal of the people of the religion they are supposed to represent.

I really can't stand religious extremists no matter what the religion.