Downtown Eastside - DTES Issues

[SeymourDrake]

Does COV still have a Mayor?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

You can pour a ton of resources into the issue but the only viable solution is forced incarceration and triaging. This would take upfront capital to build facilities, staff and bring forth legislative change...which would be undermined by social justice and human rights advocates that would scream bloody murder once a few marginalize people get held against their will (ie. First Nations).

Societal changes in the past 20 years have destroyed any possibility of correcting the issue. Police are scared of arresting criminals because many vocal social justice advocates see these people as vagrants that have been screwed by the system and have a large backing from non-profits in the DTES that depend on these followers to maintain their existence.

So yes, pouring billions of dollars into drugs and housing seems to be the only viable solution at this time..

The only way is to shed light on what hypocrites those so-called social justice advocates are. People's lives are not getting better because of them, but considerably worse. People can judge on real data statistics, including the number of people hooked on drugs, the ever increasing amount of tax payer's money pouring into a bottomless system, as well as the stagnated businesses of the downtown core.

So I don't agree with you that pouring billions of dollars into drugs and housing is the viable solution, if you even consider that as one.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Vin

The only way is to shed light on what hypocrites those so-called social justice advocates are. People's lives are not getting better because of them, but considerably worse. People can judge on real data statistics, including the number of people hooked on drugs, the ever increasing amount of tax payer's money pouring into a bottomless system, as well as the stagnated businesses of the downtown core.

So I don't agree with you that pouring billions of dollars into drugs and housing is the viable solution, if you even consider that as one.

I don't agree with it, but ultimately there's two solutions I listed here. I prefer incarceration, triaging and involuntary treatment. However all three layers of government along with the most vocal segment of the SJW's are in favour of the alternative solution of giving them drugs and housing.

[s211]

Originally Posted by SeymourDrake

Does COV still have a Mayor?

Yes, but isn't it the same mayor that wants to defund the police and then bitched at them when they didn't have resources to deal with large beach parties breaching covid protocols?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by s211

Yes, but isn't it the same mayor that wants to defund the police and then bitched at them when they didn't have resources to deal with large beach parties breaching covid protocols?

On the other hand, the police were not defunded, and yet also refused to break up the beach parties. I'd say the burden of their budget justification currently rests with the VPD.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by s211

Yes, but isn't it the same mayor that wants to defund the police and then bitched at them when they didn't have resources to deal with large beach parties breaching covid protocols?

Sounds like the VPD has a $340+ million money management problem.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I don't agree with it, but ultimately there's two solutions I listed here. I prefer incarceration, triaging and involuntary treatment. However all three layers of government along with the most vocal segment of the SJW's are in favour of the alternative solution of giving them drugs and housing.

Yes I agree. The only way to really get drugs off an addict's system is not giving him or her more "clean" drugs, but actually making the person go cold turkey. I would do that to someone I love.

It's sad that many in our society can't see that, and hence the problem never goes away.

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Sounds like the VPD has a $340+ million money management problem.

Maybe bring back the RCMP after getting rid of VPD?

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Vin

Yes I agree. The only way to really get drugs off an addict's system is not giving him or her more "clean" drugs, but actually making the person go cold turkey. I would do that to someone I love.

It's sad that many in our society can't see that, and hence the problem never goes away.

The concern is that cold turkey on most addicts causes them to neurally fry. Their body either shuts down and they die from the withdrawal or they go insane and become a danger to anyone and anything around them.
The dirty news is the folks so hardened by the likes of smoking crack for decades that they have to be supplied a supply for the rest of their lives because their body cannot function properly without it. Think like diabetes and insulin. It's not 1921 anymore, so we can't really cast them off and hope their bodies eventually figure it out.

Maybe bring back the RCMP after getting rid of VPD?

"Ay ay ay ay! You want me to do physical work like that? You better talk to my union before you make me take risks that big. They only pay me $120/hr here and that's just not enough if you want me to do that!"

[Vin]

Originally Posted by MIPS

The concern is that cold turkey on most addicts causes them to neurally fry. Their body either shuts down and they die from the withdrawal or they go insane and become a danger to anyone and anything around them.
The dirty news is the folks so hardened by the likes of smoking crack for decades that they have to be supplied a supply for the rest of their lives because their body cannot function properly without it. Think like diabetes and insulin. It's not 1921 anymore, so we can't really cast them off and hope their bodies eventually figure it out.



"Ay ay ay ay! You want me to do physical work like that? You better talk to my union before you make me take risks that big. They only pay me $120/hr here and that's just not enough if you want me to do that!"

Maybe it should be 1921 again? At least North America was at its peak. It was the epitome with no such thing as the DTES back then. Society has been sliding backwards since the Second World War here.

Better that their bodies and mind try to readjust first before further handicapping them with more drugs. At least they have a fighting chance to get back to normal. Mental retardation has to do with more drugs killing brain cells.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Vin

Maybe it should be 1921 again? At least North America was at its peak. It was the epitome with no such thing as the DTES back then. Society has been sliding backwards since the Second World War here.

Better that their bodies and mind try to readjust first before further handicapping them with more drugs. At least they have a fighting chance to get back to normal. Mental retardation has to do with more drugs killing brain cells.

I don't think prohibition was a swell time for many.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I don't think prohibition was a swell time for many.

And North America peaked in 1921?

[giallo]

You're advocating a death sentence for many by enforcing a cold turkey program, Vin. The US spend over a trillion dollars on that war, and it didn't amount to anything at all. The private prison industry boomed. That's about it.

If someone wants to do drugs until they die, well, I guess that's their decision - it is a free country after all, but in order for the impact of that decision to lessen for the rest of us, the government has to get involved. Why we still allow the black market to regulate the drug supply in 2021 is beyond me. An unregulated, potentially dangerous product and high prices all have a direct effect on society, whether they do a drug or not.

Regulate it, price it accordingly, and use the tax dollars to start to fund really solutions to the issues that create an addictive individual. Is it going to be weird to be able to by opioids from an online store.....yeah, it will be for a bit, but if it keeps people from ODing from an unreliable product, it's affordable enough so you don't have to worry about random addicts stealing your copper wire for a fix, and we start to see properly-funded hospitals and housing to help those that truly need it, then it's a pretty good trade off.

[MIPS]

Decriminalizing the likes of crack, cocaine, heroin and other opiates will not solve anything beyond making the use even more causal than it is already (VPD doesn't even arrest you for minor possession or use anymore because it's all Catch and Release) and sure as hell not reduce any of the associated crimes. That mindset can stay in Oregon where they're already full of themselves.
Comparing the American War on Drugs is also really not applicable here as their entire detention and rehabilitation system is wildly different from Canada's.

[dreambrother808]

Rather than listening to hard-liners with no experience with these issues, I'll take my advice from a recovered addict like Guy Felicella. He's fighting the good fight, with his own hard-won wisdom. He's @guyfelicella on twitter.

From an article summarizing his experience and point of view:

It’s now and everywhere. It goes back to the stigma and culture that exists in pushing people to an area of isolation. You don’t have to be in the Downtown East Side to be isolated — you can be in your penthouse or your bathtub. That’s addiction. It’s everywhere. The culture of judgement and stigma is really driving people to not reach out and change it. We just created the stigma. Look at alcohol — it kills more people than anything else and it’s legal. To decriminalize doesn’t mean it’s legal either. It doesn’t mean you can sell drugs; it just means you can address it differently.

I’ve called many people who are seeking treatment, but they’re afraid to do so because of their families, friends, and jobs. I always tell those with these concerns, “If you continue to use alone you’re going to end up losing your life.” Their response usually revolves around the idea of relief from dealing with the emotional pain in their lives. There’s a lot of shame attached to substance use in itself. That’s where I go back to speaking up for decriminalization, so professionals won’t be judged for being substance users. Addiction isolates people and society isolates people more by pointing fingers.

https://www.healthinsight.ca/advocac...cellas-story/#

[giallo]

Originally Posted by MIPS

Decriminalizing the likes of crack, cocaine, heroin and other opiates will not solve anything beyond making the use even more causal than it is already (VPD doesn't even arrest you for minor possession or use anymore because it's all Catch and Release) and sure as hell not reduce any of the associated crimes. That mindset can stay in Oregon where they're already full of themselves.
Comparing the American War on Drugs is also really not applicable here as their entire detention and rehabilitation system is wildly different from Canada's.

I'm under no illusion that legalization is going to fix the issues of addiction, but with an approach of pragmatism coupled with compassion we could save money and lives.

Basically, my main issue is allowing the black market and organized crime to control the drug market while we take a compassion approach to drug use. There's nothing compassionate about letting society's most vulnerable be exploited by society's bottom-feeders. Something needs to change.

[whatnext]

Just another day in Yaletown/Downtown South. Right in the mayor’s backyard:

VANCOUVER (NEWS 1130) — It was a chaotic Sunday morning for police in Vancouver after a man allegedly threatened a security guard and police officers with a hammer.

Police say around 3:30 a.m., crews were called to the scene near David Lam Park where a man was accused of threatening them and gesturing as if he was going to strike them with the hammer.....

https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/04...curity-police/

[mcminsen]

Just another day on Robson Street.

I just got in now after watching some deranged guy on a vandalizing spree. He was kicking over the newspaper boxes and then going over to the barriers at the road construction and breaking off all the yellow flashing lights, throwing the traffic cones into the holes in the street and just messing up or breaking anything he could get his hands on.

Lots of people were on the street and a lot of them turned to look but of course nobody got involved. I considered taking some pics but decided not to.

When I got to Homer Street the guy was carrying on towards the stadium like a one man wrecking crew.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by mcminsen

Just another day on Robson Street.

I just got in now after watching some deranged guy on a vandalizing spree. He was kicking over the newspaper boxes and then going over to the barriers at the road construction and breaking off all the yellow flashing lights, throwing the traffic cones into the holes in the street and just messing up or breaking anything he could get his hands on.

Lots of people were on the street and a lot of them turned to look but of course nobody got involved. I considered taking some pics but decided not to.

When I got to Homer Street the guy was carrying on towards the stadium like a one man wrecking crew.

Overheard someone going on a mirror and window smashing spree near Bute and Pender on Saturday.

But yeah, something, something housing and free drugs.

Many in Strathcona are still refusing housing and you can see why if you go down there. Open chop shops and large rows of stolen goods lining tarps.

[SpongeG]

I was downtown yesterday and noticed many people with problems. Firstly it was quiet for 4:00-4:30 pm time, covid is obviously keeping people from comin out, so perhaps those with issues are more noticeable or they just feel more free to roam the streets, such as Robson. They are many more noticeable people even in the afternoon sleeping in doorways or just passed out, splayed out on the sidewalk as you walk past.

On Robson just east of Granville there was a woman walking down the street which had a steady stream of people, many looking they were leaving work etc, anyway she had her top lifted up with her breasts fully exposed at times playing with them like bongos or just slapping them around, she wasn't making any weird noises or anything just walking down the street letting everything out there. People looked a little shocked passing by.

Down near waterfront centre, there was some guy walking around very erratically and fast, talking out loud to himself and he had a big pile of stuff all over the place, like books and blankets and who knows what else. Without "regular" people coming out these things seem more everyday now, and the people walking through looked a little freaked out, some trying to shield their kids.

In other visits, later at like 9 - 10 pm, I've noticed tents in areas like the seawall near the entrance of Stanley Park, there was some kind of setup with a tent, shopping carts and tarps and they had a fire going on inside.

People passed out along the seawall and the parks down near coal harbour, even seen two tents in the park down there a liitle hidden by the trees. Normally on a nice evening in the spring, pre-covid you would see a lot of people out walking but the last few times with great weather it's very dead and quiet other than homeless or drug addicts being out and about.

It has really made me more aware of just how many people are dealing with mental illness. From people screaming to people breaking things or just people making a home on the streets. Something needs to be done to address them. It's starting to feel inhuman to just allow people to live that way.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I don't think prohibition was a swell time for many.

We're not talking about alcohol. There has always been prohibition when it comes to hard drugs, except enforcement is getting rather lax these days, not to mention there is a major decay when it comes to society putting a stop to young people gaining access to drugs.