Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by McC

The economic trade off point between truck and train occurs somewhere between 500 and 1000 km, depending on the variables (e.g., fuel prices, cargo type, just-in-timeyness of the delivery requirement—that’s a technical term, by the way ). That’s why there are no intermodal yards in the Ottawa area: we’re within range of both the Montreal and Toronto area facilities.

Huh okay. This entire time I’ve thought that cargo ships aren’t allowed on Ottawa River due to environmental reasons.

Also, allowing them means that we have to raise every single bridge across the river. That’s simply not gonna happen.*

Lastly, do we really want a refurbrished PoW bridge (if that ever happens) to be able to support heavy weight? Not a rhetorical question, just sheer curiosity.

* The bridge between Hawkesbury and Grenville is elevated in the middle of the river. Even then, I’ve never seen a cargo ship there. Then again I’ve only been there twice.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by McC

The economic trade off point between truck and train occurs somewhere between 500 and 1000 km, depending on the variables (e.g., fuel prices, cargo type, just-in-timeyness of the delivery requirement—that’s a technical term, by the way ). That’s why there are no intermodal yards in the Ottawa area: we’re within range of both the Montreal and Toronto area facilities.

I tend to agree, but playing devils advocate here, that is assuming the status quo, whereby truck travel is subsidized by the government but rail travel isn't. If we were to reverse that (in an attempt to reduce the number of trucks on our highways), the economics would change significantly.

The city of Ottawa is planning to buy the Walkley Yard from CN. If they were to build and operate an intermodal facility there (and get Gatineau to build one on their side of the river). They could then contract a railway to run subsidized intermodal ("piggyback") service to Montreal and Smiths Falls (where the trains would be shunted on to Toronto).

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Huh okay. This entire time I’ve thought that cargo ships aren’t allowed on Ottawa River due to environmental reasons.

Also, allowing them means that we have to raise every single bridge across the river. That’s simply not gonna happen.*

Lastly, do we really want a refurbrished PoW bridge (if that ever happens) to be able to support heavy weight? Not a rhetorical question, just sheer curiosity.

* The bridge between Hawkesbury and Grenville is elevated in the middle of the river. Even then, I’ve never seen a cargo ship there. Then again I’ve only been there twice.

Who said anything about ships? The discussion is about trains vs. trucks.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Huh okay. This entire time I’ve thought that cargo ships aren’t allowed on Ottawa River due to environmental reasons.

Also, allowing them means that we have to raise every single bridge across the river. That’s simply not gonna happen.*

Lastly, do we really want a refurbrished PoW bridge (if that ever happens) to be able to support heavy weight? Not a rhetorical question, just sheer curiosity.

* The bridge between Hawkesbury and Grenville is elevated in the middle of the river. Even then, I’ve never seen a cargo ship there. Then again I’ve only been there twice.

Don't forget there are also about 60 large dams on the Ottawa River, and several between Ottawa and Montreal. Billions of dollars would be needed to upgrade the locks on the way down for 'cargo' ships. Just unpossible.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Huh okay. This entire time I’ve thought that cargo ships aren’t allowed on Ottawa River due to environmental reasons.

Also, allowing them means that we have to raise every single bridge across the river. That’s simply not gonna happen.*

Lastly, do we really want a refurbrished PoW bridge (if that ever happens) to be able to support heavy weight? Not a rhetorical question, just sheer curiosity.

* The bridge between Hawkesbury and Grenville is elevated in the middle of the river. Even then, I’ve never seen a cargo ship there. Then again I’ve only been there twice.

Don't forget there are also about 60 large dams on the Ottawa River, and several between Ottawa and Montreal. Billions of dollars would be needed to upgrade the locks on the way down for 'cargo' ships. Just unpossible.

[lrt's friend]

There has been no commercial ship service on the Ottawa River for probably 100 years. The Grenville canal and the canal at the Carillon dam are not large enough for modern shipping. The docks in Ottawa and Gatineau can handle only pleasure craft.

Ottawa's industrial base has become so minimal that it cannot support regular railway freight service.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Who said anything about ships? The discussion is about trains vs. trucks.

I read intermodal yard on the previous page and automatically thought of cargo ships.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ottawa's industrial base has become so minimal that it cannot support regular railway freight service.

Using our current model for railways, that is true. There is plenty of demand for consumer goods though. If the province wanted to reduce they number of trucks on provincial highways, they could change the financial environment to make trains more competitive.

It has always bothered me that the new Amazon distribution centre doesn't have a rail transfer facility. It is expected to have "more than 100 trucks that will be coming in and out of the facility daily" ref. Many of those are for local deliveries but some will be for supplying the warehouse. Trains would make a lot of sense for much of that.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Many of those are for local deliveries but some will be for supplying the warehouse. Trains would make a lot of sense for much of that.

You would think so. It makes sense to me as well. Amazon is in the business of moving a lot of parcels around and to them at least, carriage by train didn't make sense or is not practical.

[Kitchissippi]

Much like coupling/uncoupling the LRT, the big issue with freight is transferring and sorting, and the cost and labour associated with it. The logistics of detaching, reconsisting and redirecting a relatively small amount of train cars to Ottawa and then transferring on to trucks here probably does not make economic sense when it can all be done regionally in Montreal or Toronto.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Much like coupling/uncoupling the LRT, the big issue with freight is transferring and sorting, and the cost and labour associated with it. The logistics of detaching, reconsisting and redirecting a relatively small amount of train cars to Ottawa and then transferring on to trucks here probably does not make economic sense when it can all be done regionally in Montreal or Toronto.

Intermodal service doesn't require transferring on to trucks. The train carries the whole trailer. All you have to do is hook up a rig at the destination.

As for labour cost, considering there are between 2 and 4 hours of labour costs to drive a truck from Montreal or Toronto, the logistical costs of rail aren't the major factor. The big factor is the cost of the rail infrastructure.

Now where labour can be a factor is in a small city like Ottawa, there isn't enough work to hire someone full time, and part time labour becomes expensive. If the Capital Railway were to take over responsibility for freight operations in Ottawa, that work could be done by the same people who take care of the Trillium Line trains.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Intermodal service doesn't require transferring on to trucks. The train carries the whole trailer. All you have to do is hook up a rig at the destination.

As for labour cost, considering there are between 2 and 4 hours of labour costs to drive a truck from Montreal or Toronto, the logistical costs of rail aren't the major factor. The big factor is the cost of the rail infrastructure.

Now where labour can be a factor is in a small city like Ottawa, there isn't enough work to hire someone full time, and part time labour becomes expensive. If the Capital Railway were to take over responsibility for freight operations in Ottawa, that work could be done by the same people who take care of the Trillium Line trains.

The difference is that Montreal serves most of Quebec and the GTA most of Ontario so they can run these operations pretty well 24/7 making full use of infrastructure and labour expertise. Unfortunately the environment does not factor much on the balance sheets, at least not yet.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The difference is that Montreal serves most of Quebec and the GTA most of Ontario so they can run these operations pretty well 24/7 making full use of infrastructure and labour expertise. Unfortunately the environment does not factor much on the balance sheets, at least not yet.

That is why the government needs to step up and fund the local operations in smaller centres. As I said before, with the City of Ottawa buying the Walkley Yard, we have a huge opportunity to do just that, and set an example for the entire country. The city runs under different parameters than a company with regards to profitability. Other intangibles (like business development) can be as important as the bottom line.

[J.OT13]

So turns out the PoW IS still part of the City's long-term transit plans.

Prince of Wales Bridge back on track as future rail link

By Shaked Karabelnicoff
Capital Current
December 9, 2019

The Prince of Wales Bridge, recently rejected as a potential commuter rail link between Ottawa and Gatineau in the immediate future, could still become part of Ottawa’s long-term light-rail network, according to city staff.

In a transportation committee meeting on Nov. 13, Vivi Chi, manager of transport planning for the City of Ottawa, said the historic rail link is still being considered as part of the future transit plan that runs through 2031.

Chi’s statement came just one month after Mayor Jim Watson said the bridge is not the right choice for a light rail transit connection.

Watson said staff had analyzed the potential of using the bridge to connect the Trillium Line to Gatineau’s Rapibus system, but ultimately recommended against it. According to Watson, such a the rail link would overwhelm an already congested Bayview Station on the south side of the Ottawa River and at the north end of the current Trillium Line.

David Jeanes, a rail transit advocate with Transport Action Canada, said he does not agree that commuters using a future Prince of Wales rail link would inundate Bayview Station.

“STO riders would mostly be travelling West or South,” explained Jeanes, referring to commuters reaching Ottawa from the Outaouais transit network. “I don’t agree with the idea that Bayview couldn’t handle that… It’s already been designed to facilitate this.”

If STO service were to connect at Bayview Station, trains on the Confederation and Trillium lines would see 5,500 passengers transferring from Gatineau during peak hours, according to city staff in a report on the future of the bridge.

Chi, who was responding to an inquiry from Bay Coun. Theresa Kavanagh about the fate of the bridge, noted that, at present, the city’s main concern about rehabilitating the Prince of Wales Bridge is cost, not the logistics of incorporating an upgraded bridge into the city’s transit system.

“It’s an affordability issue,” she said, which is why the bridge is part of a long-term strategy rather than current plans.

The abandoned railway bridge was built in 1880 and connects Ottawa and Gatineau over the Ottawa River. It was bought by the City of Ottawa in 2005 for $11 million. Since then, it has been at the forefront of municipal and federal discussions.

“(The bridge) is a passionate issue for many people here in Ottawa,” Kavanagh said at the meeting. “They see that bridge. It’s not in great shape, and it’s an excellent opportunity to increase transit with our neighbours.”

The potential rehabilitation of the bridge emerged as an issue during the 2019 federal election campaign, and garnered vocal support from various Ottawa Centre candidates, including Catherine McKenna, the federal minister of infrastructure and communities.

“When I knock on doors in Ottawa Centre, residents say that linking the two communities will make it easier for work, school and play,” she said in an email response to questions about the bridge.

Currently, the bridge is closed for all uses, but the city hopes to at least open it for pedestrians and cyclists until a rail link is built, according to John Manconi, general manager of the City of Ottawa’s transportation services.

“The Prince of Wales Bridge could be used in the interim for active transportation,” stated city staff’s written response to Kavanagh’s inquiry. “In the ultimate plan, there would be cycling and two pedestrian facilities, as well as rail transit on the bridge.”

McKenna pledged to work with the City of Ottawa to make the bridge accessible to pedestrians and cyclists, which she estimates will cost about $10 million.

“There’s a real need for people to get around in a cleaner, faster and cheaper way, and we can make that happen for the residents of Ottawa and Gatineau,” she explained.

But Kavanagh said during the meeting that a temporary solution does not solve the fundamental issues facing commuters.

“I bike to work. I’m looking at all those cars, and I’d say 70 per cent of them are from (Gatineau) and they have no choice but to drive (because) there’s very little transit options for them,” she said. “If there are local MPs on both sides of the river who support this effort, why is it being delayed so much?”

McKenna said she is open to future discussions about a long-term transit strategy with the city, but in the meantime, her priority is to meet the immediate demands of her constituents.

“Yes, the bridge may play a role in a longer-term interprovincial transit strategy, but there is a need now for another safe and secure cross-river link to serve pedestrians and cyclists,” she said.

Chi said further updates on the bridge will come in the spring, when Gatineau transit officials are expected to present a long-term transit study to the City of Ottawa.

https://capitalcurrent.ca/prince-of-...ure-rail-link/

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So turns out the PoW IS still part of the City's long-term transit plans.

https://capitalcurrent.ca/prince-of-...ure-rail-link/

I have said this before, but using the POW bridge as the transit link between Ottawa and Gatineau is a bad idea. Using it as a transit link has some merit though.

However, if the Portage Bridge is the the top priority for transit crossings (which I tend to agree with), a more easterly crossing (such as the Alexandra or Macdonald-Cartier Bridge) should be the second priority. Only once those are complete should we consider using the POW bridge for transit, and it will be decades away before we need a third transit crossing. In the meantime, lets remove it from our Three-Year Rail Network Plan and then let the NCC refurbish it for recreational use.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I have said this before, but using the POW bridge as the transit link between Ottawa and Gatineau is a bad idea. Using it as a transit link has some merit though.

However, if the Portage Bridge is the the top priority for transit crossings (which I tend to agree with), a more easterly crossing (such as the Alexandra or Macdonald-Cartier Bridge) should be the second priority. Only once those are complete should we consider using the POW bridge for transit, and it will be decades away before we need a third transit crossing. In the meantime, lets remove it from our Three-Year Rail Network Plan and then let the NCC refurbish it for recreational use.

I agree with this completely.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Huh okay. This entire time I’ve thought that cargo ships aren’t allowed on Ottawa River due to environmental reasons.

That environmental reason would be that the Ottawa River is hella shallow.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

In the meantime, lets remove it from our Three-Year Rail Network Plan and then let the NCC refurbish it for recreational use.

Let's not let the NCC's grubby, obstructionist, pro-prettyism, anti-urban hands anywhere near it.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I have said this before, but using the POW bridge as the transit link between Ottawa and Gatineau is a bad idea. Using it as a transit link has some merit though.

However, if the Portage Bridge is the the top priority for transit crossings (which I tend to agree with), a more easterly crossing (such as the Alexandra or Macdonald-Cartier Bridge) should be the second priority. Only once those are complete should we consider using the POW bridge for transit, and it will be decades away before we need a third transit crossing. In the meantime, lets remove it from our Three-Year Rail Network Plan and then let the NCC refurbish it for recreational use.

I agree. We need to focus on our higher priorities and from Gatineau, it is the Portage bridge. The POW bridge may be a transit connection some day but not a priority. Spend money on refurbishing the bridge for recreational use for the time being.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Let's not let the NCC's grubby, obstructionist, pro-prettyism, anti-urban hands anywhere near it.

I only said the NCC because federal money should be used. Ownership of the bridge could be maintained by the city.

[Uhuniau]

The federal government is more than the NCC. If we can't abolish the NCC, then at least starve it of things to screw up.