LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Radster

I just don't see why there is this tendency on this site from Ottawa people to be so adverse to touristy attractions and ideas that push the envelope. Why so sceptical that some of these attractions will become white elephants? We are not talking Olympic Stadium here, just a few small/medium-sized buildings. If one or a few of the attractions fail, so be it, new ones will take their place, after all, it is prime real estate.

So's the Mould Museum at Rideau Falls.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I did the NCC survey online which, naturally, has a bug in the code so that at the end you have no idea whether your survey was correctly logged or not.

Yes, I experienced the same. Additionally, the survey wouldn't load at all for me in Firefox on Windows, and I had to switch to Chrome to make it work. Though it's not the NCC's fault, it is a major problem.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The war museum is a lot further in, and pedestrian mobility in the area is currently limited. It won't be anything near 20 minutes if the Melynk arena is built.

The arena location was about half way or a 10 minute walk.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Yes, I experienced the same. Additionally, the survey wouldn't load at all for me in Firefox on Windows, and I had to switch to Chrome to make it work. Though it's not the NCC's fault, it is a major problem.

It kinda is the NCC's fault (hi, NCC staffer reading this.) They now know about the problem, and need to get on the phone to Environics, stat.

Or not, because it's pretty clear from the even-by-NCC-standards incredibly abbreviated timeline that they care even less than usual what the public thinks in this case.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Has there been any talk in the anglophone media about Lebreton-Bayview becoming a possible terminus for a revitalized tourist steam train that would cross the Prince of Wales Bridge and then run eastwards to Montebello?

It's been mentioned a few times in the francophone media over the past couple of days.

I heard this mentioned last night. And if this is what it takes to resuscitate the steam train, I am all for it. The steam train excursion was a major tourist attraction and it is a pity that it has laid dormant for the last number of years because of the lack of investment. I think this idea should be pushed and if it connects in with this development, great. Why go to some obscure Hull industrial park for a major tourist attraction as was the case in the past.

I just don't see the value of the Prince of Wales Bridge as a transit route unless we are prepared to allow interlining into the tunnel. We are otherwise asking people to transfer too often. From the Quebec side, a route needs to serve both downtown Hull and downtown Ottawa and that may be best accomplished (and most economically) by a surface LRT loop using the existing bridges.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Radster

Just wondering why is it such a problem that the Devcore bid is too touristy? I am of the opinion, that if this bid has bunch of new tourist attractions (Ripleys, museums, skydiving, botanical garden, etc) accessible year-round, then all the better for Ottawa. New tourists will come and fill more hotel rooms, and the tourists who come already, will decide to stay for a day longer than they do now. All pros to me. Doesn't mean it will be all tacky like Niagara either. Also, look at the spin off effects, like the airport getting busier with new destinations, more flights, city gets livelier and less sleepy.....

I just don't see why there is this tendency on this site from Ottawa people to be so adverse to touristy attractions and ideas that push the envelope. Why so sceptical that some of these attractions will become white elephants? We are not talking Olympic Stadium here, just a few small/medium-sized buildings. If one or a few of the attractions fail, so be it, new ones will take their place, after all, it is prime real estate.

Ottawa is a sleepy town, do you really want it to remain that way forever? Sens bid is great too, but it just wont bring any influx of tourists. Like LRT's friend said, its just mainly arena and condos.

Yes. I don't think this is anything like Clifton Hill in Niagara Falls. This isn't schlock that Devcore is planning.

And just remember the perception across Canada of Ottawa as the 'Town that fun forgot' . What accomplishes getting rid of this image more than activity centres that will appeal to the average person and younger people. Get people past Ottawa as a place with just nice parks and dusty museums, no matter how good they are. We need to make Ottawa a more diverse tourist attraction.

And if this makes Ottawa a tourist destination that you can spend 4 days instead of two, what a boon this will be for the tourist industry.

And where else can we situate more tourist attractions but Lebreton Flats? It is the best place for tourist attractions that remains in central Ottawa. Condos can be placed anywhere in the city. And we know that the market for condos is limited with the market presently saturated.

So if we want to see Lebreton come alive sooner, we need to focus more on attractions.

Let's face it, an arena will be mostly for locals, and although this a very good thing to be part of this, it also must tie directly to transit so that locals can access it easily. Therefore, the location at the west end of Lebreton and next to transit and placing the tourist attractions closer to downtown hotels is ideal.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yes. I don't think this is anything like Clifton Hill in Niagara Falls. This isn't schlock that Devcore is planning.

And just remember the perception across Canada of Ottawa as the 'Town that fun forgot' . What accomplishes getting rid of this image more than activity centres that will appeal to the average person and younger people. Get people past Ottawa as a place with just nice parks and dusty museums, no matter how good they are. We need to make Ottawa a more diverse tourist attraction.

And if this makes Ottawa a tourist destination that you can spend 4 days instead of two, what a boon this will be for the tourist industry.

And where else can we situate more tourist attractions but Lebreton Flats? It is the best place for tourist attractions that remains in central Ottawa. Condos can be placed anywhere in the city. And we know that the market for condos is limited with the market presently saturated.

So if we want to see Lebreton come alive sooner, we need to focus more on attractions.

Let's face it, an arena will be mostly for locals, and although this a very good thing to be part of this, it also must tie directly to transit so that locals can access it easily. Therefore, the location at the west end of Lebreton and next to transit and placing the tourist attractions closer to downtown hotels is ideal.

I agree with most of this, except for the comment on the arena. Short stay tourism is important as well, and an arena will draw people from, say, a radius of 250 km or more for events. They won't be the 4-day tourists that you are referring to, but they will be an important market for the industry.

I like the idea of attactions, but I'm not keen on attractions that feel contrived or gimmicky, as they tend not to be viable long term. A few of the proposals for Lebreton feel that way, and feel like they would struggle to keep the site animated outside of prime tourist times.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I just don't see the value of the Prince of Wales Bridge as a transit route unless we are prepared to allow interlining into the tunnel. We are otherwise asking people to transfer too often.

Try it. Be surprised.

[YOWflier]

No matter what, in addition to the arena (stunning design by Rendezvous BTW), I hope the aquarium and iFlyOttawa make it into either final product.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

No matter what, in addition to the arena (stunning design by Rendezvous BTW), I hope the aquarium and iFlyOttawa make it into either final product.

I agree. Devcore had perhaps too many attractions, it was edgy, but Rendezvous had none. Not one. I would hardly consider Rendezvous proposal to meet the standards that are expected for the site. Who cares about condos, people aren't going to come to Ottawa and say, "wow, they have tall condos here".

I love the aquarium, and botanical walkway ideas. Plus they are region specific and would represent the Ottawa river and our nation. There are perhaps too many museums but I would keep a few like the brewseum and the planetarium.

Rendez-vous represents Ottawa ugly side. The lack of progress and big thinking. We have a chance to go into a new direction, towards progress, swagger, excitement and we should.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Dear Lord, I hope not.

If the bridge is brought back up to train-bearing standards, then it should be used for interprovincial train transit.

Could they not do both? The tourist train won't be running every 15 minutes? Probably not even one an hour. And it won't be all year either.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

I agree with most of this, except for the comment on the arena. Short stay tourism is important as well, and an arena will draw people from, say, a radius of 250 km or more for events. They won't be the 4-day tourists that you are referring to, but they will be an important market for the industry.

.

Yes, I agree. For example I suspect you'll get way more Habs fans making road trips to Ottawa if the arena is downtown.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

I agree with most of this, except for the comment on the arena. Short stay tourism is important as well, and an arena will draw people from, say, a radius of 250 km or more for events. They won't be the 4-day tourists that you are referring to, but they will be an important market for the industry.

I like the idea of attactions, but I'm not keen on attractions that feel contrived or gimmicky, as they tend not to be viable long term. A few of the proposals for Lebreton feel that way, and feel like they would struggle to keep the site animated outside of prime tourist times.

Of course, Devcore admitted that some of the attractions are only concepts and may not take place or change depending on what the future may bring. It does sound that the Aquarium, the car experience and the Brewseum are a go and maybe a few others. And as I said, I loved Melnyk's arena plan the plaza around the arena and the aqueduct walkway lined with cafes and bars.

As far as the short distance travellers are concerned coming to a Sens game, what we are creating is far better than what we have. If you are staying near Elgin or the Market, you will still need to take LRT to get to the arena and having a stop right next to the arena is a bonus for visitors as well as locals. No confusion of where to go.

I hope ideas from both proposals make it to the final plan and I would love to see an overall partnership, so we get a great Sens experience and a lot of the sizzle from the Devcore ideas.

My comment about 4 days versus 2 days was about making Ottawa a bigger destination so that longer stays are justified. Of course, there will continue to be many much shorter term visitors, whether for just the day or maybe one night.

Overall this is so much more exciting than the last round of plans, that brought us the Claridge condos.

[OTSkyline]

^Like most people have stated on top. The DEVCOR offers a lot of newness and innovation and attractions to Ottawa (things we need to make Ottawa more fun and yes, attract more tourists who right now come for the peace tower, museums, a dinner at the Byward Market and then.. well, that's it). I was doubting the feasibility but the latest Citizen article shows that most of their proposal is based on reality not fantasy (Ripley's is in, YMCA is in, the school is in, the Farm Boy is in). The "Spin" and "iFly" require very little footprint and investment and so I am not scared about those failing. The biggest attraction proposed that would be hard to develop would be that Science and Tech museum.. um... center (or whatever they want to call it).

Melnyck's proposal has nothing! Condos, Restaurants, Arena and Library. That means we aren't maximizing outcome or returns, aren't really attracting more capital investment nor tourism dollars or anything..

I have my fingers crossed for a hybrid version. My ideal Lebreton would be mostly the DEVCOR proposal, minus maybe the Canada Circle plaza (just keep the nicer Canada Square one), spread the buildings more so there's more of a mix of residential, retail and attractions throughout the site (not all attractions on one side and all mixed-use on the other and finally let Melnyk build the nice arena just like his proposal and let him own/manager the building and the SENS. Maybe even let him keep a small parcel next to the arena so he can also profit on a couple of retail spots and a hotel, that way he has more incentive to move downtown and spend the $$ to build the new arena.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As far as the short distance travellers are concerned coming to a Sens game, what we are creating is far better than what we have. If you are staying near Elgin or the Market, you will still need to take LRT to get to the arena and having a stop right next to the arena is a bonus for visitors as well as locals. No confusion of where to go.

Or you could go on a half-hour or 45-minute stroll through town.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I have my fingers crossed for a hybrid version. My ideal Lebreton would be mostly the DEVCOR proposal, minus maybe the Canada Circle plaza (just keep the nicer Canada Square one), spread the buildings more so there's more of a mix of residential, retail and attractions throughout the site (not all attractions on one side and all mixed-use on the other and finally let Melnyk build the nice arena just like his proposal and let him own/manager the building and the SENS. Maybe even let him keep a small parcel next to the arena so he can also profit on a couple of retail spots and a hotel, that way he has more incentive to move downtown and spend the $$ to build the new arena.

Mine is the exact opposite. Mostly Melnyk with some elements of the other. The other one is very bad urban planning and ugly starchitecture.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

^Like most people have stated on top. The DEVCOR offers a lot of newness and innovation and attractions to Ottawa (things we need to make Ottawa more fun and yes, attract more tourists who right now come for the peace tower, museums, a dinner at the Byward Market and then.. well, that's it). I was doubting the feasibility but the latest Citizen article shows that most of their proposal is based on reality not fantasy (Ripley's is in, YMCA is in, the school is in, the Farm Boy is in). The "Spin" and "iFly" require very little footprint and investment and so I am not scared about those failing. The biggest attraction proposed that would be hard to develop would be that Science and Tech museum.. um... center (or whatever they want to call it).

Melnyck's proposal has nothing! Condos, Restaurants, Arena and Library. That means we aren't maximizing outcome or returns, aren't really attracting more capital investment nor tourism dollars or anything..

I have my fingers crossed for a hybrid version. My ideal Lebreton would be mostly the DEVCOR proposal, minus maybe the Canada Circle plaza (just keep the nicer Canada Square one), spread the buildings more so there's more of a mix of residential, retail and attractions throughout the site (not all attractions on one side and all mixed-use on the other and finally let Melnyk build the nice arena just like his proposal and let him own/manager the building and the SENS. Maybe even let him keep a small parcel next to the arena so he can also profit on a couple of retail spots and a hotel, that way he has more incentive to move downtown and spend the $$ to build the new arena.

Hopefully the NCC has the will to negotiate the final project with both groups as you suggest instead of forcing themselves to go all in or all out.

[passwordisnt123]

It seems to me like Devcore is in a extremely precarious business position right now. I just can't figure out how they think this whole game will play out in their favour when you look at all the chess pieces on the board.

The business plan for the proposal is a major component of the NCC's evaluation criteria and yet the central spine of Devcore's business plan seems to me to rely on two main pillars: getting the Sens to play in your arena—which Melnyk has already all but vetoed—and a series of museums , none of which are huge money makers, especially in a city of Ottawa's size. There's a fraction of the real estate in the plan so they don't even have that as a fall back or cushion.

So far as I can tell, Devcore's entire business plan appears to be:

Step 1: win the NCC's Lebreton flats competition somehow.

Step 2: build an NHL arena right away in phase 1

Step 3: try to somehow bargain a deal with your chief competitor Eugene Melnyk — a man whose picture is basically next to the entry for "crotchety" in the dictionary. To make matters worse, you're in one of the worst possible buyer positions imaginable: you can only buy from one person who has almost zero motivation to sell and he's the same guy you just beat out to win this competition. Melnyk also would be facing almost zero pressure to relocate the Sens since the Canadian Tire Centre is only 20 years old so he could easily wait it out in Kanata for decades if he wanted, even if just out of spite. All the while, you (Devcore) would become more and more desperate with each passing year to anchor your new $3 billion investment with a major tenant. Devcore would basically be stuck and I wouldn't even be surprised if Melnyk was able to strike some sort of deal where he got the arena for a song.

Step 4: now try and make money to recoup your expenses with almost no revenue coming in from the newly minted Sens/arena deal you just had to sign under duress because you had no bargaining leverage. Oh, and also you have very little revenue coming in from the museums you've built and the precious little real estate you've allocated in your plan is sequestered from the rest of the area on the south side of the LRT tracks because you didn't bother to bury them.

</rant>

Don't get me wrong, I think there's lots that's neat in the Devcore proposal (the urban beach and the wind tunnel being the coolest in my eyes). But holy cow, the economics of Devcore's whole proposal seem weak as hell to me.

[Stevenson]

the people who say Melnyk's is boring: Ottawa is a capital city and is turning into a bit of a European-esque city. Why does anyone travel to Paris, Rome, Barcelona, etc? For tacky things like a skydiving simulator or an aquarium? Those cities aren't considered boring and they don't have any of that stuff for the most part. People go to see the historical attractions. People will always go to Ottawa to see the Parliament buildings, they will always go to Washington DC to see the White House, Capitol building etc. These cities don't need to be Toronto, MOntreal, or NYC.

The things Devcore is proposing are cool, but I hardly doubt those will draw tourists. Why would they? They would be more for locals in my opinion. I don't think tourists would come just to see an aquarium. I would love an aquarium here by the way.

To me Melnyk's plan is fantastic as a local and the arena is a venue that has a chance to be world class like some of the arenas and stadiums you see in Europe.

Just some of my thoughts. I think Ottawa is become a European city by the day and we will have no problem drawing tourists (as we already do).

[Radster]

Originally Posted by Stevenson

the people who say Melnyk's is boring: Ottawa is a capital city and is turning into a bit of a European-esque city. Why does anyone travel to Paris, Rome, Barcelona, etc? For tacky things like a skydiving simulator or an aquarium? Those cities aren't considered boring and they don't have any of that stuff for the most part. People go to see the historical attractions. People will always go to Ottawa to see the Parliament buildings, they will always go to Washington DC to see the White House, Capitol building etc. These cities don't need to be Toronto, MOntreal, or NYC.

The things Devcore is proposing are cool, but I hardly doubt those will draw tourists. Why would they? They would be more for locals in my opinion. I don't think tourists would come just to see an aquarium. I would love an aquarium here by the way.

To me Melnyk's plan is fantastic as a local and the arena is a venue that has a chance to be world class like some of the arenas and stadiums you see in Europe.

Just some of my thoughts. I think Ottawa is become a European city by the day and we will have no problem drawing tourists (as we already do).

You can't compare Ottawa to Rome, Barcelona or NYC, come on. You exemplify the typical Ottawa mentality, city that fun forgot. We have enough attractions already, one night stop for tourists to see the Parliament buildings as they detour between Montreal and Toronto. yay! Lets leave Ottawa with the status quo and never grow up to be a big city.